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  #21  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:15 PM
Dom Dom is offline
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Originally Posted by codetoast View Post
As for appearing in TGH, I cannot offer an explantion.
Luc is dead, I guess it's possible the Horn can call him (the same might happen to Birgitte, by the way. She isn't technically alive, she's got a special form of "death" and is in the wrong dimension, kept alive by Elayne's life thread/energy) and his soul returns to Isam's body rather than to TAR. If Isam happened to be in TAR when it happens, Isam might trapped in TAR, unable to exit it until Luc's soul returns to Slayer. Another option is that Isam is forced to "come along" when Luc's soul is called by the Horn.

I also think Luc and Tigraine may have been Calian and Shivan rather than this duo being born soon as Elayne's twins. In many ways, the birth of the Dragon marks the beginning of the end of the Third Age. It may be something Shivan does which ends the third Age once and for all.

Shivan the Hunter fits rather well with Luc's profile (especially since he appears to be the "big hunter" of the duo. Calian the Chooser is less obvious for Tigraine, though her choices were pretty fundamental, and she chose the Dragon Reborn's father, and chose to return to the Wetlands against all custom for a pregnant maiden. Etc.

The only things I don't like in Cabadrin's theory are) It's the Finns rather than the DO who made Slayer and 2) Luc is "undercover". I think Luc was turned to evil, plain and simple. It's being called by the Horn that frees him from the Shadow, IMO. It may well be he willingly went to his death as a sacrifice (like Tigraine), but I don't think he's "aware" of this right now.

Last edited by Dom; 11-27-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:38 PM
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Dom - I would be interested to know more on why you think Luc is a HOTH. Is it only that it would explain some of the special properties of Slayer or are there, eg mythological parallels?

Though I like the idea of Luc and Tigraine as the Twins, iirc Mat remembers them responding to the horn (when he talks to Birgitte in ACOS), so I'm not sure that works.

My take on the creation of Slayer is that it's an example of how some things are more powerful in TAR. Also, when Perrin describes their scent as cold and inhuman it reminds me of the consequences of entering TAR in the flesh that the WOs warn about. I figured it was something similar to what was done to the resurrected Forsaken - except without the previous occupant being removed, and done in TAR to make that effective with added cookies.

I do like the idea that Luc was turned as its hard to beleive him being such a nasty piece of work was never remarked upon when people remember him. Given that he doesn't seem to channel would 13x13 work? Perhaps he was corrupted in another way though (we've seem similar with Aridhol after all).
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:43 PM
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It's being called by the Horn that frees him from the Shadow, IMO
How come this didn't happen in TGH then?
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:12 PM
Dom Dom is offline
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Originally Posted by codetoast View Post
How come this didn't happen in TGH then?
I think it would have to do with whether Slayer is or isn't in TAR when the Horn is sounded (all this stuff is of course 100% speculative)

E.g: If Slayer is in the real world, Luc's soul gets called by the Horn and his soul is snatched into TAR and goes through whatever the Horn does to translate or reflect the dead Heroes, immune to the OP, in the real world (or makes TAR and the RW touch each other at a specific point. This fits more with some of the mythological sources of inspiration for the Horn/Dead Heroes... the Sidhe and the real world "merge" in a great fog, and the heroes/gods (the Tuatha Dé Danaan) come to Ireland. Later in the cycle, they hide the Sidhe from the humans (the Gael).

Luc becomes "all the Lucs" since the first time he became a Hero and joins the other Heroes. The evil Luc, turned to the Shadow (or corrupted by Isam's soul), is only a very small facet of a global Hero personality dedicated to the Light, and Isam's soul is overwhelmed by the whole, or in his body in the RW, he isn't affected.. it's simply that Luc's personality gets wiped from Slayer for a while. But their bond holds, and as the Heroes return to TAR, Slayer is "back to normal".

If Slayer is in TAR - Luc's proper place, not Isam's - when the Horn is sounded, perhaps Isam wouldn't survive the "call", or the "recall to TAR" processes of the Horn. Luc's eternal soul would be freed, Isam would die.

It could be the opposite, or some other rules. I'm giving this more as an example of possible mechanisms.

We could have a situation also where Slayer is in TAR doing something dire, in the middle of the endgame. Mat sounds the Horn, Rand's soul is freed from the DO's grasp, and Luc is temporarily freed from Slayer's body. Isam is temporarily only a man again, caught in TAR in the flesh with no way out until Luc's soul is back. Perrin gives him the so-called "final death", cutting the Slayer bond and freeing Luc's Hero soul. When the Heroes are recalled, Luc is dead in TAR normally again.

A Luc POV during the "battle of Heroes" would be enough to give us hints of what is happening, reveal Gitara's foretelling. reveal how becoming Slayer, letting his soul be grabbed by the Shadow, let him do his Hero job of putting an end to the Age, of "slaying it". Luc being called by the Horn/the undoing of Slayer, would mark the end of the Third Age. The removal of the Bore might correspond to that moment when the Horn is sounded. Rand might need to be dead, and have his full TAR powers and knowledge of the "All the Dragons" to do the deed. Events in the RW at the Pit would rather have Nynaeve removes the remnants of the Sealing, then Rand needs to die and face the Lord of Death directly, then be called back by the Horn, with TAR and the RW "merged" and him immune to the OP (and TP possibly...) to be able to remove the Bore (with or without help from Dreamwalkers and wolves uniting their Will as One to support his effort) without Shai'tan able to do anything to stop it, short of seizing Rand's soul, maybe.

Min may have found the relevant passage about this recently: The Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

This refers to either of two things, IMO. This is either Shai'tan being able to seize "all of Rand" (ie: his soul) because of his bond to Moridin, thus it needs to be cut so Rand can die safely.

Or this refers to dead Rand's soul in a direct face off against Shai'tan in the afterlife (TAR, for Rand).

I tend to think it's the first, by the way, but I'm also convinced Rand will have to face Shai'tan in death too, in his domain, and the Horn is the key to free him, because the real meaning of its etching is "Shai'tan is no bar to my call". I think the Chosen gave us a clue the way they reacted to Moridin's name. They either reacted thinking him a fool or extremely arrogant. It's before they learn Death itself gave him the name...

What "dire thing" Slayer may be doing in the endgame? When Moridin is dead, Slayer may be in TAR to give the "final death" to the dead Rand. The arrow flies, the Horn is sounded, Rand is called to the real world, and so is Luc. Perrin kills Isam.

Last edited by Dom; 11-27-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:28 PM
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Dom - I would be interested to know more on why you think Luc is a HOTH. Is it only that it would explain some of the special properties of Slayer or are there, eg mythological parallels?
The concept for this exists in Greek esoterism (eg: in the Orphic Mysteries) but it's all very complicated/obscure stuff. RJ dug in that stuff for sure. Tuon/Fortuona comes primarly from there. It got confirmed by TGS. Previously it was just a hunch it was from Orphic religion specifically RJ took his version of Kore/Persephone, but when she transformed into "the Goddess of Fate/Fortune" it confirmed it. It's a cycle representing levels of initiation. Orpheus as The Fisher sends you through the cycle. You notably meet the Mother Goddess in various forms. First she's autumnal Demeter as the Grim Reaper, then she is her daughter Kore represented with a raven on her shoulder, and a lit torch in her hand. Then you meet her as the Goddess of Fate/Fortune, with her husband (Mat) who holds death (a poison) and life (a grain) in each hand. You take the poison (that seems to be Shadar Logoth in WOT) and face the Lord and Lady of Death (this is Persephone and Hades, but their representation is more dire than we're used to in the more mundane versions of Greek myths, devilish than in the lighter representations of the myths). Persephone is somewhat merged with the darker aspects of Artemis/Selene a Moon Goddess and more Lanfear than Egwene..., and Hades is associated to the Abyss - It goes on. At the end of the initiation process the Goddess is shown as The Empress (Demeter in full solar glory) who makes things grow and offspring be born, and the God is now summer Appollo. Again, it's not the lighter solar Appollo associated to music/poetry, but the more esoteric Delphic Apollo, with orecular powers. It's all fairly complicated (not all scholars agree on interpretation of the cycle either) and describing it from memory I probably have a few things wrong.

But you see the path of Tuon in it... Mat and her are now in their "Gods of fate" phase, but already on the threshold of going through a very dark phase where they might doom the light, which fits with Tuon's current plans. Then they emerge in a much brighter phase.. we should see the mischievous/playful Mat and Tuon again at some point.

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Though I like the idea of Luc and Tigraine as the Twins
Nitpick: the series never confirmed them as twins. This is one of those things we all think we've been told and which in fact arose with the theory that Elayne's twins are Shivan and Calian (which doesn't make that much sense, Elayne's son would come too late to herald destruction and the birth of something new). Mat spoke of them only as brother and sister, which relationship they don't necessarily have while incarnated.

There was an interesting theory that Shivan the black is Luc, and Calian the red is Elaida.

Shivan the Hunter is the herald of the end of an Age and of the birth of a new one. He wears a black mask. His sister is called the Chooser, wears a red mask and RJ made sure not to tell us what's her "duty". She's not the herald, it's her brother who is.

There was another interesting theory that Ba'alzamon when he wore his black mask in TGH was mascarading as Shivan - herald of the end of the Age, and that his love of Red and Black is tied to Shivan and Calian somehow. Moridin was introduced, and so were his colors, in the same book Mat mentionned the Red/Black masks of Calian and Shivan.

But I prefer Luc and Tigraine as Shivan and Calian.

Quote:
I figured it was something similar to what was done to the resurrected Forsaken - except without the previous occupant being removed, and done in TAR to make that effective with added cookies.
Replace "made in TAR" by "transmigrating the soul of a just killed Hero of the Horn - who now rightly would belong in TAR, so his captured soul shares the living body of Isam", and it's essentially the same theory and motifs. The difference is only in the way it relates to TAR.

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I do like the idea that Luc was turned as its hard to beleive him being such a nasty piece of work was never remarked upon when people remember him.
Exactly. Turned to the Shadow, or corrupted by sharing a mind with Isam's soul, it doesn't seem likely Luc was in any way a "nasty piece of work". It would have been remarked on.


Quote:
Given that he doesn't seem to channel would 13x13 work? Perhaps he was corrupted in another way though (we've seem similar with Aridhol after all).
Possibly. I base my notion maybe Luc is a latent channeler (aka a "learner") on his sister, as far as we know is real and full one, gave birth to Rand. Having the latent ability may be enough to be turned to the Shadow. I explain Slayer can't channel because it's Isam's body, and Isam doesn't have the right genetics.

I like my Red Veils hypothesis (ie: that the Red Veils captured him and had him turned to the Shadow) because it would mirror Tigraine who went to become a Black Veiled Maiden. That inverts the masks of Shivan and Calian... Then one day Luc and Isam were summoned to SG, Luc was killed and Slayer was made.

As I said originally, I believe Slayer is mostly an experiment to see if a Hero of the Horn could be controlled that way. A prototype for what the Shadow plans to do to Rand.

I think Rand-Moridin are already like Slayer, it only requires Rand to die to complete the making. Moridin has to die first to prevent it.

What would be interesting is if Moridin dying first would place his soul in Rand's body instead and prevents the "final death" he so wants to get. Then Rand's death would release his soul... which Shai'tan would willingly ignore and let go to the Afterlife/Soul Pool... his final betrayal of a loyal servant.
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:16 AM
Cabadrin Cabadrin is offline
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I was using "Hero" as a general honorific, I do not think Luc and Isam are Heroes of the Horn. Those seem to be a special category of returning souls, legendary warriors. No gleeman is likely to win fame and fortune with the Luc and Isam story, and what would they have been doing at Falme, sticking poisoned knives in people on both sides?

There should be some Heroes of the Horn resurrected for Tarmon Gai'don, Lan and Galad would be good candidates and we know Birgitte's partner Gaidal Cain is around somewhere; with the weird temporal connection between TAR and the waking world he could be old enough.

The core problem with the "Luc was turned" theory is the suggestion that Gitara sent him to the Blight. I find it inconcievable she would do that without a Foretelling and equally inconceivable that a Foretelling would have guided her to create a minor DO servant.
So, did RJ insert that rumor just to fool me? It didn't fool any of the rest of you.


SamJ - I like your explanation of the "cold and inhuman" smell:
Quote:
RJ Okt 4 2005:
Slayer just chooses who he will be when he steps into or out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The stepping in and out is part of the mechanism for his change.
So there is a direct connection between Slayer and the TAR/WW interface.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2012, 02:24 AM
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Thanks Dom - interesting as always. I really like the ideas behind this, particularly the inversion of the masks. I hope this turns out to be right.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2012, 02:45 PM
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I do not think Luc and Isam are Heroes of the Horn.
I never suggested Isam is a HoH. I think the DO captured himself a Hero with Luc. Much like the makers of the Horn found a way to "control" the Heroes to serve a purpose.

Quote:
we know Birgitte's partner Gaidal Cain is around somewhere; with the weird temporal connection between TAR and the waking world he could be old enough.
It's been confirmed a few times, both by RJ and by Brandon, that this is impossible.

We can tell within a few months how old Gaidal is using Steven Cooper's chronology. That gives us two option's, as RJ contradicted himself slightly on this. Once he said the soul joined the body at fetal stage, another time he said it joined the body at the moment of conception.

Either way, "Gaidal" either was conceived, or reached the proper fetal stage, between Amadaine 22 (June 10) (the day after his last on screen appearance) and Maighdal 14 (August 16) 999 NE (the day before Birgitte said she has not seen him in TAR for some time).

We're in summer 1000 NE.

Perception of time while in TAR is very different from the real world. You may think you spent minutes there when it's been hours in the real world, and the reverse. But time never goes backward. Birgitte had no idea if she last seen Gaidal days, months or years ago. But we know. If was but a few weeks.

RJ has even confirmed Gaidal wasn't born to be involved in the LB (he said "he would sit this one out"), that he got spun out by the Wheel for a post TG purpose.


Quote:
The core problem with the "Luc was turned" theory is the suggestion that Gitara sent him to the Blight. I find it inconcievable she would do that without a Foretelling and equally inconceivable that a Foretelling would have guided her to create a minor DO servant.
That's because you assume too much her foretelling was transparent. Most aren't. IMO there's not two foretelling, there's only one, sending Tigraine to the Waste and Luc to the High Passes, and Gitara had no idea why, beside that it was important. Gitara would have told Tamra if she knew or even suspected that Tigraine was sent away to become the DR's mother. She sent Tigraine first, and Luc later, probably to make it believable he had gone to look for his sister.


Quote:
So, did RJ insert that rumor just to fool me? It didn't fool any of the rest of you.
Which rumor? About a foretelling?

There are a few "main" theories about Gitara and Luc that I know of.

- One is that Gitara had a foretelling to send Luc away to the High Passes. The first main variant cover the hypothesis that The Wheel wanted Luc away not to be there with Andor's armies when Tigraine returned as a Maiden, perhaps so he didn't find and raised Rand. The second variant cover purposes for the fact Luc had to be captured by the Shadow. Slayer has an unwitting positive role to play. A third variant is that Luc's purpose was to kill Janduin.

- The second main theory involve no foretelling. Gitara willingly sent Luc to his death in the Blight because he suspected she was behind Tigraine's disappearance and he started to pester her with too many questions. There's only so much word twisting an AS can do. In short, it's a variation on what happened to Gawyn. Elaida got fed up of his questions about Elayne and him being a nuisance with his Younglings, and she had Galina arrange for his death by the Shaido the WT knew were between Cairhien and the WT at the time. Sevanna betrayed Galina and tried to capture Rand instead.
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dom View Post
"he would sit this one out"
I take your word for it, I didn't check Gaidal Cain in the interviews. There ought to be some reason for the temporal TAR/WW oddity, though. Rand needs more time in TAR before Mat recalls him to the Waking World?

But you didn't check the chronology (My underlining):

Quote:
Sevenspokes: 971 NE

Lord Luc of House Mantear, brother of Tigraine Damodred, disappears in the Great Blight. Rumors suggest the involvement of Gitara Moroso, Queen Mordrellen's Aes Sedai advisor, who may have urged Luc to make the journey. [TGH-TP-590 / LOC-H-278]

Sevenspokes: 972 NE

Tigraine Damodred, Daughter-heir of Andor and wife of Taringail Damodred, disappears. Having been told by Gitara Moroso via a Foretelling that disaster would engulf Andor and its people if she did not join the Maidens of the Spear, Tigraine travels to the Aiel Waste in secret. [TEOTW-H-668 / TSR-H-392 / LOC-H-277]
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2012, 07:48 PM
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I take your word for it, I didn't check Gaidal Cain in the interviews. There ought to be some reason for the temporal TAR/WW oddity, though. Rand needs more time in TAR before Mat recalls him to the Waking World?
It's a characteristic of TAR. I guess time too is a reflection there, and for some reason it seems to fluctuate a lot. It might be perfectly possible to slow things down and accelerate them at will in TAR, but unless Will is applied to that purpose, we know it's something else that determines how time flows in TAR (RJ said there's a certain randomness to it but it's constant for a bunch of people together in TAR at the same time)

Will this have a purpose? Maybe. Not every little point of the world building will have.

Here are quotes about Gaidal:

Quote:
QUESTION
He's too old (note from Dom: Olver is too old)

ROBERT JORDAN
Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
Quote:
Who says that what Gaidal has been reborn to do is to fight the Last Battle? There is more to do to keep the Pattern on course than the Last Battle.
Note: this one was about "how come Gaidal has been reborn since it's obvious he will be too old to fight in the LB for at least 15 years?"

There was another one I seem to remember where RJ said something like "I'm afraid Gaidal will have to sit this one (the LB) out", but it's not one the Terez has collected. I'll try to look into my old files to see if I have a source for it, this might have been from a Wotmania poster signing reports - a few of those have been lost.

But he's implied much the same in the quote above anyway. Brandon has also confirmed Gaidal is reborn now. At some point he's reported as having implied we've even seen him, but it was noted rather fast we've not met any baby fitting RJ's rather specific guidelines.

Quote:
But you didn't check the chronology (My underlining)
I've not looked into the details of the back story of Luc in some time, no. Thanks. I mis-remembered some of the old theories, obviously. It must have been about sending Luc away ahead of Tigraine to get him out of the way first, so he didn't try to go after her, then sending Tigraine when Gitara was sure Luc was gone and not too soon so it looked too suspicious. Old stuff really, I've not discussed these issues in a very in a long time.

I think a foretelling was involved, by the way, I was merely commenting on other theories.

Last edited by Dom; 11-29-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:19 AM
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Maybe Gitara just said to Luc: "Go take a hike." and Luc interpreted that as a foretelling.
If Luc resembled Gawyn when he was the same age, then this would be a perfectly believable explanation.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:02 AM
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Maybe Gitara just said to Luc: "Go take a hike." and Luc interpreted that as a foretelling.
If Luc resembled Gawyn when he was the same age, then this would be a perfectly believable explanation.
The daughter-heir goes alone in the Waste and gets herself pregnant, and her brother runs alone in the Blight.

Yeah, that sounds like Elayne and Gawyn all right...

You keep intermarrying to maximize bloodlines to Ishara, and this is what happens

Joke aside, it's interesting to see how the Pattern had a sort of echo of Luc in Gawyn and Tigraine in Elayne. Gawyn ended up serving Mesaana's purposes and hated Rand and wanted to kill him as Luc has killed Janduin - while for Gawyn AS have tried to get him killed by Aiel; Elayne keeps running around to "save the world"/help Rand - and ends up pregnant from Tigraine's son.

I wonder if it means after very central events have been set in place in the weaving, it takes a few generations for the Pattern to "loosen up", causing gradually fading "echoes" until it does. Another twisted "echo" of Tigraine/Luc is found in Moiraine and Taringail. Moiraine was also set on a life quest "to save the world" by a foretelling of Gitara - ended up seeking the Aiel, persuaded them to let her use the WO ter'angreal which sets her fate, while Taringail was a menace (it's even suggested he might well be the one who sent assassins to kill Moiraine) and got taken care of. And now Moiraine ends up with her brother's killer. And Elayne will seemingly give birth to yet another brother-sister duo, this time twins.

Anyway, if those patterns are really there and intentional, by reverse engineering it suggests Luc's "path" was also misguided/marked by the wrong choices/being used unwittingly by the Shadow. We never heard of Taringail's friends or entourage, but we know he had a DF cousin.

And the "paths" of Moiraine and Tigraine are precursors to Rand's, much like Elayne and Aviendha seem to be echoes.

RJ liked to put clues in the heraldry. Tigraine is interesting as it represents a willing sacrifice for the greater good (a hand bloodied by the thorns of a rose), following important choices (like Moiraine, like Rand). Luc's sigil is even more interesting as it's an acorn, the seed of the powerful and long lived oak tree. An oak takes a very long time to produce acorns, and they're the seed of something strong and long-lived. It would make a very good symbol for the Hero Shivan the Hunter who heralds the end of an Age and the beginning of a new one.

It's also interesting on Luc has begun his hunt by going to the Blight, and near the endgame he's set on possibly his real and final prey.

If Luc is really Shivan the Hunter, it would seem fitting that when he finds his prey the new Age will begin. Leaving for his Great Hunt was sort of the "beginning of the end", the transitional period between the two Ages started. Most of the "key births" (Rand, Elayne, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha etc.) or key "life turning" events (Moiraine's, Morgase's, Thom's etc.) concerned with the end of the Age occurred in the years following Luc's departure for his "hunt", often set in motion by Tigraine's choices, and sometimes not very far removed... the pain of her departure killed her mother, which opened the path to Morgase, which freed Gitara to return to the Tower where her death placed Moiraine and Siuan on their own paths. Etc.

The departure of Luc on the hunt was marked largely by births, and sacrifice/deaths to bring about births. Tigraine dying for Rand, Mordrellen dying to open the path to Elayne's mother, Gitara dying to set Moiraine's path (and prevent the Shadow from putting her to the question. It seems likely she's not told even Tamra about Tigraine...)

Luc's departure also marked the apparition of Wolfbrothers (Elyas became one, and appears to have been the first, a few years after Luc went away and Rand was born), and Min was born 4 years later. New talents, typical of the transition between two Ages.

Since he became Slayer, his path seems set to be marked by deaths to bring about the new Age (an echo of "clearing the rubbles")... killing the assassins of the Shadow set against Nynaeve/Egwene (on the orders of a Chosen... most likely Lanfear countering Ishamael), killing BA pushing Elayne/Nynaeve/Thom forward (again on orders of a Chosen, most likely Lanfear again), causing the death of Mesaana on the eve of the LB etc. while the murders Slayer must not commit (at least not now...) all have failed despite his best efforts... Perrin, Rand and Min, Fain.

It's interesting to consider, if Luc is the Hero Shivan, that Shai'tan might have purposefully captured him, as if to prevent him from playing his role, stalling the transitional process to the next Age, or preventing at least the last stage. It fits quite well with other things Shai'tan does, like trying to make the seasonal cycle grind to an halt. Interesting too Shai'tan mostly use him as a hunter/assassin.

It's also interesting to consider a Chosen, and very probably Cyndane, has set Slayer on a target, and very likely in Moridin's back, as she told Slayer short of Shai'tan telling him otherwise he must go on.

Slayer seems very much a pawn in the rivalries of Lanfear and Ishamael... Interesting that Lanfear wants people alive when Ishamael wants them dead, and wants people dead when Moridin wants them alive for now. In the middle is Slayer, either sent as hunter/assassins, or to counter them, constantly being told to kill Rand, or taken away from this task by someone else. Lanfear and Ishamael somewhat have a Chooser/Hunter vibe going, except the gender are reversed: Lanfear's the Hunter, Ishamael's the Chooser. They even somewhat played a counterpart of these roles in the AOL (Lanfear being part of the drilling - but done by a Hunter (for LTT, for a new power), which set the end in motion, and Ishamael presided over LTT's death but it wasn't his doing, or wish, but LTT's choice (for obvious reasons, Ishamael/Lanfear were not Shivan and Callian but somewhat played their roles, in a skewed/inverted way. The end of the AOL seems distorted/skewed.. as if the second Age wasn't brought to a proper end, and the Third Age wasn't born right either.. the normal cycle couldn't occur, like the seasons are blocked etc (which seems normal for this phase of the cycle, however, like the third Age is The Age of Chaos): the changes of paradigms were brought by Shai'tan, no new talents appeared, the Age was spent replaying variations of the end of the Second Age, and awaiting the "true end", the LB):

It seems logical, if Shivan and Callian are Tigraine and Luc, that Callian gave birth to the Dragon after Shivan started his hunt, and Shivan is meant to kill him when the right time comes, completing the transitional circle.

A potential twist is that Slayer isn't meant to kill Rand that the cycle ends with the death of Moridin, freing Rand so he can bring about the new Age.

Interesting too that Shivan as a HoH would be so "dark", or have a very dark side. Prince Luc didn't seem dark, at least we've had no sign of that from people who've known him, but he would have gone on his hunt in the light, to fall into death and the Shadow. Two sides of a coin. It's dead he may be meant to accomplish his final role. This fits well with the hypothesis that the purpose of the weakness in the Pattern is to make the process of decay and death possible in Creation. Shivan would mirror this: he's a hero who needs to join the Shadow to be able to "kill an Age", while Callian is the one who chose if the Dragon would be reborn, and her offspring makes the choice if Creation should go on or not.

It will be fun to see if Callian the Chooser does anything of interest (like removing her red mask, she should have Tigraine's appearance, her last incarnation) when the Horn calls the Heroes, or in TAR sequences with dead Rand, maybe. That, or a POV of Luc (we always got Isam) are about the only ways I can see to confirm or hint at any of this.

If Shivan and Callian are Luc and Tigraine, it becomes obvious why they are shown masked - RJ didn't want Rand, Perrin and Mat to see their faces.

Very interesting their masks match Moridin's colors, associated to fire/blood and death. For Moridin they are the color of destruction and the final death as "the end of everything", the colors of the Pit of Doom, and probably how for Moridin the end is foreseen to come (dragon's blood on black rocks etc.).

Tigraine's choice is linked to blood in interesting ways, her choices brought the start of the final wars/conflicts, and she was the bringer in the world of the Dragon, but also the positive links to bloodlines, the Aiel blood, the Royal line of Andor, the culmination of bloodlines leading to Rand's birth (Ishara was "as dark as an Atha'an Miere", from the nobility of a nation where there's no dark skinned people anymore. We know Andor's line has Aiel blood, likely from Rhea and most likely an ancestor of Ishara's husband... while her own ancestry is exceptional, with her mother or father having made a marital alliance with the Sea Folk. So Rand isn't just Aiel, he's got Sea Folk blood as well). Even the final prophecy is one of red blood on the black rocks bringing salvation. And Luc's black is self-explanatory.

It's certainly a more interesting avenue for hardcore readers, to have some keys by the end to delve on the end of the Age process, than making Elayne's twins Shivan and Callian (they come to late to be, IMHO, all signs point to the transition to the fourth Age being well under way by now - too late for Shivan to be considered an herald).

Last edited by Dom; 11-30-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:29 PM
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Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:02 PM
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Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).
Yes, good point.

I believe if we could layer the finales of EOTW/TGH/TDR over each other just the right way, re-arrange the elements just the right way, what was skewed (inverting failures, making people not working together work together etc.) form the right combination, remove all the noise/dross RJ added to disguise things more, and fill in any intentional holes (he always included some in his repeating patterns), we'd come with something pretty close to the general shape of AMOL's finale.

A concrete example of this concerns how Nynaeve and Moraine are the two involved alongside Rand at the EOTW. They face Aginor (stand-in for Moridin?), then Rand has to deal with him, and move after that in TAR (as a HoH, it's his Afterlife), frees a captive dead soul, drives his sword into the heart of the dark, then returns. Egwene is a bystander, so are Mat and Perrin. Ba'alzamon then returns wearing the Red Mask of the Chooser. The dagger of SL lead the Shadow there. There are more elements to analyze, eg: Balthamel with his mask being dealt with by a Nym (Aiel warriors surrogates, Way of the Leaf? Balthamel is somewhat symbolic of corrupted history) who dies in the process.

TGH rather deals with the Horn of Valere angle. Perrin has the banner, Mat the Horn. Hawkwing has Justice. Rand is projected in the sky fighting "the DO", this time a staff is driven in his side, creating a TP wound. Egwene is a prisoner freed by Nynaeve. Fain is a by-stander and escapes.

TDR rather gives clue about the Callandor aspects. It's Rand who's baited to take the sword. Moiraine deals with Be'lal. Egwene breaks Elayne and Nynaeve out of jail, and captures prisoners. Mat has fireworks. The Aiel start the mayhem. Moiraine deals with Be'lal. Perrin too frees someone out of a prison with the wolves in TAR. Like all three confrontations, it's in two stages: one stage in the real world, one stage involving Rand facing who he believes is the DO in TAR/the Afterlife. SL is completely absent.

It probably doesn't stop at the first three "confrontations", but RJ was more obscure with the other layers. A lot of two stages/Afterlife surrogates again: Aiel Waste + the mysterious Rhuidean and a struggle for the AK with Asmodean, this time ending with Lanfear (she's a dark surrogate of Egwene in some patterns) capturing Asmodean. Perrin on the field (Green) fight Isam and what poured out of the "hole in the pattern" in the moutains north of EF that Loial and Gaul tried to close with a leaf of avendesora, Nynaeve fights over... a seal. Then again with Rahvin it's in two stages... fight in the RW, with Rand following in TAR, struggling for his soul/identity, Moiraine sends Lanfear and herself into an underworld. This time Nynaeve comes with a captive and distract Rahvin who is balefired by Rand.

And again with Sammael... a fight in Illian, then it moves to the underworld surrogate of SL... a trap on the Waygate (holes in the Pattern where a dark spirit lays... RJ often used Waygates as Pit of Doom stand-ins), Moridin appears this time to help... there's a weird interaction between TP and OP and their bond is created/enabled.

And there's the cleansing, which reveals the SL/TP/OP dynamics.

Mesaana's demise plays on some (incomplete) parallels too: TAR, prisoners/freeing prisoners wolves, balefire. Once more there are disguises/masks involved. This time for both Perrin and Egwene it's a big contest of will/cunning.

It's terribly hard to put it all together, RJ made sure it would be hard. But some variables show up a lot... balefire (as balefire or a symbol of the threat of destruction of the Pattern though, that's the question). Egwene (or Lanfear as her antithesis)/Perrin are often linked to "prisoners"/prisons, the wolves too. They have not worked together yet, except briefly against Isam/Mesaana. Nynaeve heals or fights, there's often a dynamic with Moiraine or a reversal of their roles, but it's not working (the pieces are all in place for their tandem to work now). For Mat it's definitely the "real world".. fights or the Horn, but a very strong motif is Mat arriving late, or getting killed or almost, or leading the enemy there unwittingly, or being a bystander in the finales. As if it's what he needs to avoid in the LB...

For the record, I do believe because the weakness has been turned into a Bore the DO has gained some power he's not supposed to have over the Afterlife. Kari has to be "real" somehow. How could Ishamael otherwise know the appearance of Kari al'Thor? Either that of the woman Rand believed was Kari was not Kari but a woman Rand, who barely remember her, mistook for Kari...his real mother Callian/Tigraine, either the dead HoH momentarily trapped by Ishamael, or she was a creation of Ishamael, who may have known her appearance, and her HoH role as the Dragon's mother.

Elan Morin Tenodrai do believe in the Patterns, linked souls, HoH, champions etc. Forcibly Shivan and Callian are very important to him. Shivan for Ishamael and Shai'tan would be the herald of the LB. Identifying Shivan and Callian would be a great advantage to the Shadow. Well, the Shadow might have found Shivan and thus would have known eventually who was Callian, but Callian vanished and reappeared in disguise. Ishamael seemingly returned from one of his eclipses too late.

If Luc/Tigraine are the two Heroes, and Callian is the Dragon's mother, it's very clear why Rand's birth and raising had to be so... tortuous. The Wheel has gone through great lengths to hide him: an Andoran was sent to a people of the same colouring, the foreteller who sent her died, Luc was sent to the Shadow. The prophecy spoke of a maiden, but Tigraine was already a mother and re appeared as a Maiden, Rand's birth happening during a chaotic battle between Aiel and the alliance of most nations... then when Ishamael might expect Rand is Aiel, Luc kills Janduin, and Rand ends up provided the right adoptive mother to disguise his real ancestry, and hidden in the most isolated nation.

Last edited by Dom; 11-30-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:37 AM
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Dom - an appearance by Tigraine in that manner in the last book might parallel Kari's appearance in the first book. Possibly Kari could represent Luc too, as corrupted by the shadow (whether she was real or a reflection).
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Kari has to be "real" somehow. How could Ishamael otherwise know the appearance of Kari al'Thor? Either that of the woman Rand believed was Kari was not Kari but a woman Rand, who barely remember her, mistook for Kari...his real mother Callian/Tigraine, either the dead HoH momentarily trapped by Ishamael, or she was a creation of Ishamael, who may have known her appearance, and her HoH role as the Dragon's mother.
Ishamael may have let Rand determine the appearance of Kari, thus making sure that Rand would then recognise the figure as his mother.

If the Shadow had had access to Kari before that scene, then Ishamael would have known that Tam al'Thor had found a baby on Dragonmount and had given that to his wife to be their own. That was kind of a fairly big clue, and I suspect that after some thinking Ishamael would have managed to spot the significance of it.
Combine that with Kari undoubtedly knowing that neither the Cauthons nor the Aybaras had left the Two Rivers, and the puzzle would have been solved in the same day that Padan Fain reported he had narrowed the list down to three options. That would've meant that the Trollocs had come a year or so before Moiraine arrived, and then things would have turned out quite differently.

So, all in all, there is strong circumstantial evidence against the idea that Kari had been real in that scene.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:48 AM
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So, all in all, there is strong circumstantial evidence against the idea that Kari had been real in that scene.
I see it more as strong evidence what we see happening to Kari in that scene can't possibly be real.

I also agree with you it's not possible the Shadow has had access to Kari while she lived, or even know she existed. It's with the Red Ajah I believe Tam and Kari had a brushing, and it had nothing to do with Rand even though I suspect Tam and Kari thought otherwise (that is all based on the legend of Tamlin and the Queen of the Red Fairies)

I also believe it's most unlikely Shai'tan seized that random soul when she died.

That leaves a few options:

- I'm not sure someone even in TAR can construct a reflection out of someone else's memories, but if I'm wrong Ishamael might have used Rand's mental image of Kari.

- It's hardly difficult for Ishamael to create a kindly looking woman with Rand's appearance and dress her in clothes similar to Nynaeve's... Ishamael almost certainly knew from Fain's intelligence of Rand's family background. That's probably the most likely explanation. She was a close enough Kari look-alike to fool Rand, he barely remembered her face. It wouldn't have fooled Tam or even Nynaeve.

- Hard to know how much Ishamael found out about Luc and Tigraine in all those years. Maybe nothing, maybe the whole thing. He might have puzzled out Tigraine was Rand's mother by that point, and based his Kari on her (or made her a feminine version of Luc). For all we know, Ishamael puzzled out parts only and concluded the Two Rivers as Tam's wife is where Tigraine ended up in hiding. What we know for certain about the Shadow and Tigraine is that by WH Luc knows Rand is Tigraine's son. Has he known since circa TSR or long before, and does he know of Shael or learned some other way, we don't know.

- We still don't know what's really the deal with the DO and ghosts. Is it limited to some souls (DF, or those who attracted his attention), or it's any soul? Must he have the soul, or is it some other power only to brush the shades in the Afterlife or something like this he has? It's not impossible Shai'tan could have shown Kari's ghost to Ishamael, or that Ishamael has some access from Shai'tan to the ghosts/damned (his dreamshard in the prologue was certainly weird, the faces in his palace too).

It's hard to speculate with the ending of the EOTW, as we know RJ wrote it with some dual intent to deceive us about what really happened but also to give some sort of satisfying ending, in an open-ended sort of way, to the tale if it was such a failure he abandoned the series.

The ending seems to include a mix of deceptions and hints at what his concepts of Shai'tan's powers, and some main themes, really were.

Last edited by Dom; 12-01-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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