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  #21  
Old 05-08-2017, 07:37 AM
WOT Ethnographer WOT Ethnographer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon
Her revulsion seems to be from its appearance, disgust at the depiction, not, like what Aviendha could do, disgust at what she was feeling from the object itself. Now, it is important to note, that Moiraine doesn't actually have the angreal at this moment. Lanfear does. This is her inner monologue at the docks in Cairhien from right before she wrests it from Lanfear and drags them both into Finnland. Still this seems more like an aesthetic disgust at a piece of art, of thinking that the object is obscene. But no evidence of actually feeling that tortured obscenity.
I think you have the right of it Kimon. Thanks for the citation.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
The ability to "read" ter'angreal was something Egwene had as well
Thanks fionwe1987 for your connection to Egwene, I had forgotten about that quote. I have always thought that Egwene was getting these impressions because she was in TAR and it was something to do with her experience as a Dreamer rather than having the Talent to Read Ter'angreal. I seem to remember she could also sense an angreal in this scene, something similar to the ability or Talent that Elayne had, shown in PoD when sorting through the Ebou Dar cache. Does it seem more plausible to you that Egwene could have experienced this as a Dreamer, had some measure of the reading terangreal Talent or else this was related to her strength and affinity in Earth?

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Originally Posted by Kiruna
Okay, I might be wrong about Moiraine but didn't Nynaeve feel emotions leak from other objects as well? She can also feel danger coming, we all think it is her weather prediction ability evolving to feel danger or big events but we also don't have a name for that. It is a form of Foretelling, I guess.
Kiruna, I think Nynaeve felt impressions from the Seals but there might possibly be other items. Nynaeve's Talent is Listening to the Winds; Nynaeve seems to have an advanced Talent that eventually developed to the point where she could sense spiritual-social-political upheavals and disturbances as a weather pattern. Yes, it is something like Foretelling, though it produces different type of effect and knowledge.

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I feel Spinning Earthfire is lava bending.
Yes, this is another possibility I think, maybe even a likely one.
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  #22  
Old 05-08-2017, 09:39 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
But Egwene's information could have come from being a Dreamer, rather than from being able to read plastic ornaments as if they were ter'angreal.
The read she got was identical to what Nynaeve felt. And how she describes the feel of angreal also matches how Elayne searches for them in the Ebou Dar cache. Still, I suppose it is possible.

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Originally Posted by Khoram View Post
The quote states that the Mercedes logo is even older than the bones. For it to be older means that either there was a time where humans roamed the earth before dinosaurs, then died out (otherwise how would the reptiles grow to be so large), or humans had, at one point, cloned dinosaurs la Jurassic Park.
I just went back to the scene, and I don't think any of the bones described are dinosaurs. An elephant, a walrus and a giraffe, by their descriptions.

Unless those go extinct soon, it is certainly possible for a Mercedes logo to predate them.

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Originally Posted by WOT Ethnographer View Post
Thanks fionwe1987 for your connection to Egwene, I had forgotten about that quote. I have always thought that Egwene was getting these impressions because she was in TAR and it was something to do with her experience as a Dreamer rather than having the Talent to Read Ter'angreal. I seem to remember she could also sense an angreal in this scene, something similar to the ability or Talent that Elayne had, shown in PoD when sorting through the Ebou Dar cache. Does it seem more plausible to you that Egwene could have experienced this as a Dreamer, had some measure of the reading terangreal Talent or else this was related to her strength and affinity in Earth?
The Dreamwalker thing is possible, I suppose, but her impressions match up very well with Nynaeve's, which make me think she has a similar Talent.
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  #23  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I just went back to the scene, and I don't think any of the bones described are dinosaurs. An elephant, a walrus and a giraffe, by their descriptions.

Unless those go extinct soon, it is certainly possible for a Mercedes logo to predate them.
And thus my loony theory that Jurassic Park is in the same universe as WoT is squashed.
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  #24  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
The read she got was identical to what Nynaeve felt. And how she describes the feel of angreal also matches how Elayne searches for them in the Ebou Dar cache. Still, I suppose it is possible.

...


The Dreamwalker thing is possible, I suppose, but her impressions match up very well with Nynaeve's, which make me think she has a similar Talent.
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:08 AM
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The read she got was identical to what Nynaeve felt. And how she describes the feel of angreal also matches how Elayne searches for them in the Ebou Dar cache. Still, I suppose it is possible.
....The Dreamwalker thing is possible, I suppose, but her impressions match up very well with Nynaeve's, which make me think she has a similar Talent.
I suppose unless we have another example of a person feeling an impression from ter'angreal who is someone we know cannot read ter'angreal, such as Elayne, we cannot make a very strong case that is it related to TAR/Dreamwalking instead of the reading ter'angreal talent, though there is the variable that Elayne is not a dreamwalker so maybe the impressions can only be gained by dreamwalkers. Anyway, Elayne might not be the best counter-example even if she may be our only possible one in the series. I think recognizing Egwene as having at least a minor version of this Talent is warranted, unless there are several other time Egwene touched a ter'angreal and there was no effect.. This could be a counterexample that could make us consider the possibilities of it being related to dreamwalking/TAR.

I wonder if Egwene would have this Talent listed in her bio in the notes? Maybe someone who has seen the notes can share any insight they might have on this from the section of Egwene's entry related to her Talents and abilities.
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by WOT Ethnographer View Post
I think recognizing Egwene as having at least a minor version of this Talent is warranted, ...
I don't think so...

What's the difference between reading an item's history and reading its use?

The example of the Mercedes grill emblem indicates that Egwene can read the "aura" of normal items in T'A'R. Why would she need a different ability to read the "aura" of a ter'angreal in T'A'R?

The ability to read auras/history in T'A'R seems to me to be inherent in reaching T'A'R -- the better the connection to T'A'R (aka Dreamwalker vs ter'angreal user) the more detectable an aura is.
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:40 PM
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Didn't Elayne feel that tBoW(dream!) has something to do with weather when she touched it in T'A'R? But we know that she cannot read ter'angreal, it is made clear imo. So I support Eggy feeling Mercedes aura as general T'A'R weirdness.

Nynaeve on the orher hand could feel emotions leaking both in real and dream worlds...
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:25 PM
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I just went back to the scene, and I don't think any of the bones described are dinosaurs. An elephant, a walrus and a giraffe, by their descriptions.
I agree on them not being dinosaurs, and that the third is probably a giraffe, but the second animal's description makes me envision a saber-toothed tiger, not a walrus. I suppose the clincher is that she says skeleton, not just skull. If it had just been a skull, a walrus is quite possible, but when full skeleton, it's difficult to imagine that after looking at the flipper bones, that she would still think of the creature as bear-like.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:37 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
What's the difference between reading an item's history and reading its use?
I don't think anyone is arguing Egwene can read a ter'angreal's use, or Nynaeve can. They both seem to get emotional impressions from ter'angreal, that is all.

Quote:
The example of the Mercedes grill emblem indicates that Egwene can read the "aura" of normal items in T'A'R. Why would she need a different ability to read the "aura" of a ter'angreal in T'A'R?
No need for it to be a different ability, but why should it be a TAR only ability? Remember, this happens at a very early stage where she doesn't have her Dreamwalking down yet. It is far more likely to be a real ability of hers that she used.

Quote:
The ability to read auras/history in T'A'R seems to me to be inherent in reaching T'A'R -- the better the connection to T'A'R (aka Dreamwalker vs ter'angreal user) the more detectable an aura is.
We see no evidence of this TAR-specific Talent from anyone, frankly. Sensing auras from objects, whether of the Power or not, seems to have nothing to do with TAR.

We've seen Egwene do it, and Nynaeve. And I think rather than inventing two different abilities, it is more parsimonious and simple to assume it is one.


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Originally Posted by Kiruna View Post
Didn't Elayne feel that tBoW(dream!) has something to do with weather when she touched it in T'A'R? But we know that she cannot read ter'angreal, it is made clear imo. So I support Eggy feeling Mercedes aura as general T'A'R weirdness.
Elayne was using the Power on the Bowl, though. That is why it changed color. Elayne cannot tell what a ter'angreal can do by touch, but she can figure out parts of its function by using the Power on it, can even sense the fine structure of the underlying material.

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
I agree on them not being dinosaurs, and that the third is probably a giraffe, but the second animal's description makes me envision a saber-toothed tiger, not a walrus. I suppose the clincher is that she says skeleton, not just skull. If it had just been a skull, a walrus is quite possible, but when full skeleton, it's difficult to imagine that after looking at the flipper bones, that she would still think of the creature as bear-like.
I'm hardpressed to think how Egwene would mistake a cat for a bear, though. Further, she thinks the "teeth" are as long as her arm, which doesn't fit a saber-tooth.

Googling walrus and bear skeletons, they don't look too different to the untrained eye, and it is always possible the flipper bones were missing.
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  #30  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I'm hardpressed to think how Egwene would mistake a cat for a bear, though. Further, she thinks the "teeth" are as long as her arm, which doesn't fit a saber-tooth.

Googling walrus and bear skeletons, they don't look too different to the untrained eye, and it is always possible the flipper bones were missing.
The walrus' tusks are longer than the saber's incisors, but the skeletons of the sabertooth and of a bear are very similar, far more so than either to the walrus. It's not just the feet, though the flippers are a very distinct difference, the legs, vertebrae, and ribs are all quite a bit dissimilar on the walrus. Had she described it as an oversized seal with elongated teeth, it would definitely have to be a walrus, but comparing a walrus to a bear with long teeth just doesn't seem likely. Also, keep in mind, Egwene is small. Comparing a saber's tooth in length to her forearm isn't particularly hyperbolic.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:21 AM
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I'm hardpressed to think how Egwene would mistake a cat for a bear, though. Further, she thinks the "teeth" are as long as her arm, which doesn't fit a saber-tooth.
Why not?

Wikipedia lists the length of the teeth of the two most recent types as either "17-30 cm" and "over 30 cm" respectively. Now, I'm not a great Amyrlin, I admit, but when I measure my own forearm (without the hand), it is about 30 cm. Which suggests that a sabre-toothed cat could easily have had teeth a bit shorter than my forearm, or even teeth longer than that. Was Egwene that much taller than Rand*, or had she merely freakishly long forearms?

* Who is a bit taller than I am, but not really outrageously so.
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  #32  
Old 05-09-2017, 08:39 AM
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Its also possible that the skeletons were fantasy make believes put together by the same "scientists" that screwed up some of the dinosaur skeletons you see in our own natural history museums...working with incomplete information and trying to piece together an entire animal without all the pieces or pieces of multiple animals, etc.


For the record, I always read it as a saber-tooth tiger personally.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:27 AM
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The walrus' tusks are longer than the saber's incisors, but the skeletons of the sabertooth and of a bear are very similar, far more so than either to the walrus. It's not just the feet, though the flippers are a very distinct difference, the legs, vertebrae, and ribs are all quite a bit dissimilar on the walrus. Had she described it as an oversized seal with elongated teeth, it would definitely have to be a walrus, but comparing a walrus to a bear with long teeth just doesn't seem likely. Also, keep in mind, Egwene is small. Comparing a saber's tooth in length to her forearm isn't particularly hyperbolic.
I don't know if seals exist in Randland, and if they do, Egwene certainly hasn't seen one. She grew up far from the ocean, remember?

Anyway, I pictured a walrus, and not a saber-tooth, when I read it this time because it makes more sense then for the Mercedes logo to be older.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:41 AM
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I don't know if seals exist in Randland, and if they do, Egwene certainly hasn't seen one. She grew up far from the ocean, remember?

Anyway, I pictured a walrus, and not a saber-tooth, when I read it this time because it makes more sense then for the Mercedes logo to be older.
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