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  #201  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:38 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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I was listening to a podcast interview of Masha Gessen, a Russian-American journalist who has been somewhat sceptical of the collusion claims. I think I've come to see it her way, in that it wasn't so much a master plan which Trump participated in or orchestrated, but one that began with questionable contacts with some Russians because the Trump campaign had no friggin clue what is allowed and what is not, and was mixed in with Trump wanting to ease ties with Russia due to his financial ties.

Ie. totally shady and possibly illegal, but maybe not the legal definition of collusion.
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  #202  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:15 PM
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I do agree that it seems very unlikely that Trump ever had any kind of plan for anything at all beyond "Gimme!"

Still, his asking the Russians to hack computers and the Russians then hacking computers does seem awfully coincidental.
Southpaw, if Trump was merely duped into becoming president by Putin, instead of having actually schemed with him for that purpose, would that make it better, from a legal point of view?
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  #203  
Old 06-18-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I do agree that it seems very unlikely that Trump ever had any kind of plan for anything at all beyond "Gimme!"

Still, his asking the Russians to hack computers and the Russians then hacking computers does seem awfully coincidental.
Southpaw, if Trump was merely duped into becoming president by Putin, instead of having actually schemed with him for that purpose, would that make it better, from a legal point of view?
The strongest argument against Trump being in collusion with anyone is that it's Trump. I'm not saying he couldn't plan his way out of a wet paper bag, because unless someone is there to offer him a huge bribe to come out, he'd probably want to stay in there because it's the best wet paper bag ever. He's probably try to brand them and sell them, but wind up losing massive amounts of money in the process.

What I'm saying here is that he's too dumb to pull off actual collusion. He's probably the Jacques Clouseaux of, well, whatever it is that Trump does.
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  #204  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:04 PM
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Anyone else notice that Truamp's attorney Sokolov or whatever bears a striking resemblance to Mr. Burns' attorney?

Behold:



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  #205  
Old 06-18-2017, 07:26 PM
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Anyone else notice that Truamp's attorney Sokolov or whatever bears a striking resemblance to Mr. Burns' attorney?

Behold:



Totally off base there. He's smiling way too much.
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  #206  
Old 06-20-2017, 07:49 AM
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I've gotten fairly addicted to Rachel Maddow in the last five months. She has a marvelous technique of beginning the show talking about something out of left field, sometimes from 20-30 years ago, and step by step she brings you through to how that affects the newest bit of Trump weirdness to hit the front pages. I lived through the Watergate stuff - but she's taught me things I didn't know or had forgotten about those days/months/years. Sometimes that ratings need for "breaking news" gets irritating but in general I really like her presentations.
I'm glad you discovered her; IMO she's the best thing on cable news by a long shot. She's not perfect; she's not immune to overt messaging to the point of propaganda, but she's the only one who bothers trying to give coherent historical context for anything, and when it's not historical context, she puts breaking news in the context of more recent news that other outlets don't seem to care whether or not you remember. She gets a little bit overenthusiastic whenever she gets an exclusive scoop, but along those lines, she's always very concerned with letting you know exactly who broke what news, whether it was her or not, and she's very supportive of other journalists she respects.

The breaking news interludes are always going to be with us; she has no choice but to cover those things. But I think she and Chris Hayes have reached a sort of balance between them; she focuses on Russia (she loves mysteries) and he focuses on the day-to-day policy issues that liberal voters care about the most. Between the two of them, they hit all the high points.

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We know now that Russia actually hacked into the systems of companies that handle the voting process in THIRTY-NINE STATES - nearly four out of five states. We've been told bluntly that they didn't actually change any of the votes. I have to believe they have some way to verify that. Ostensibly, the Russians belived that Hillary would win, then they would cast doubt on the validity of her win when it came out that the servers had been hacked. Instead, they got Trump. I think they really didn't want him, because they have no more ability than we do to predict his responses.
This is one of those things that Maddow generally won't talk about. I've noticed that with her; she's very wary of anything that might cause her viewers to lose faith in the democratic process.

As for the rest of your post, I find it hard to believe that Trump was kept completely in the dark with the Russia stuff. There were too many big-shots on his team with previous ties to Russia, and he was the one making picks. And I'm not talking about small-time ties; I'm talking about people like Manafort (to this day no one really knows why Trump picked him) and Flynn, not to mention Tillerson and Carter Page and various others. It's hard to see him actually plotting treason as such, but when it comes to his money interests, it's easy to see him willing to break ethics norms and even laws to benefit himself and people whose interests align with his own.
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  #207  
Old 06-21-2017, 04:36 AM
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I find it hard to believe that Trump was kept completely in the dark with the Russia stuff. There were too many big-shots on his team with previous ties to Russia, and he was the one making picks. And I'm not talking about small-time ties; I'm talking about people like Manafort (to this day no one really knows why Trump picked him) and Flynn, not to mention Tillerson and Carter Page and various others. It's hard to see him actually plotting treason as such, but when it comes to his money interests, it's easy to see him willing to break ethics norms and even laws to benefit himself and people whose interests align with his own.
Yeah, I do find it hard to believe he was ignorant - but one thing I've come to realize is that he doesn't even THINK in the same world as normal people. I'd be willing to bet that his only concern was opening up the barriers to "business as usual" and the idea that doing all this unilaterally might be considered treason by some people never really got any headway in his mind. The sanctions were in his way. People had mocked him publicly and he needed to "show them all." Combine the two and you have a man running for President with absolutely no interest whatever in the country's actual well-being. Couple that with the fact that he's a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist along with being a climate-change denier and despiser of regulations "that choke business" and you have a perfect storm. Also bigot, misogynist, bullshitter extrordinaire and "like a smart guy."

Sigh.
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  #208  
Old 06-25-2017, 08:12 PM
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I love how the GOP has gone from the law and order party to the "doesn't everyone spy on us, who cares, let the Russians do what they want. Oh and why do we need investigations, let's fire everyone and cut the FBI's budget!" party
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  #209  
Old 06-26-2017, 02:31 AM
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Well, the GOP has been the party of "do as we say, not as we do" for a very long time, so it isn't as much of a change as you seem to think.
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  #210  
Old 06-26-2017, 07:13 PM
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Well, the GOP has been the party of "do as we say, not as we do" for a very long time, so it isn't as much of a change as you seem to think.
The GOP has trended towards authoritarianism and fascism basically since Nixon was in office.

The Dems, however, continually snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I wish there was a legitimate 3rd option...or I wish I had enough money to just move overseas. If I had the cash, I'd find a nice little house in the south of France and disappear.
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  #211  
Old Yesterday, 02:35 AM
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I wish there was a legitimate 3rd option...
Most Americans seem to share that wish. Strangely enough, not a single one of them has ever come across the concept of the "self full filling prophecy". I wonder whether there's any connection. Nah, probably not.
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  #212  
Old Yesterday, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
The GOP has trended towards authoritarianism and fascism basically since Nixon was in office.

The Dems, however, continually snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I wish there was a legitimate 3rd option...or I wish I had enough money to just move overseas. If I had the cash, I'd find a nice little house in the south of France and disappear.
You could come to Canada. We have some French-ish type people...not exactly the weather of the South of France though.
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  #213  
Old Yesterday, 06:15 AM
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Some bits of Canada are at the same latitude as the north of France is.
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  #214  
Old Yesterday, 08:17 AM
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Yeah, but that's southern Ontario, which is way too close to either Toronto or Niagara Falls...and the weather is totally different.
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