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  #141  
Old 08-26-2017, 05:06 AM
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...If she isn't playing LF, then my god, they really suck at writing this character.
Remember back when she was getting ready to leave Bravos, and was walking around openly in the city, despite having defied Jaqen and the Faceless Men?

They really suck at writing...everyone, lately.
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  #142  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:07 AM
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Remember back when she was getting ready to leave Bravos, and was walking around openly in the city, despite having defied Jaqen and the Faceless Men?

They really suck at writing...everyone, lately.
I've often been left wondering why GRRM didn't just become part of the writing staff, if not the primary writer, for the show for these later seasons. He could have just thrown out bare-bones versions of plotlines and let the other writers flesh things out, then make corrections where he felt they had gone astray. My guess for why this didn't happen was that he was either still deluding himself, or the world, that he was actually trying to finish the books instead, and thus didn't have time, or that it was money, i.e. he asked for way more than they could budget.

Speaking of which...

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/game-thro...-seven-2128094

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Game of Thrones writer George R.R. Martin has admitted that he has not seen any of Season Seven because he is so busy writing.

Martin is currently working on the The Winds Of Winter, which was expected to be released next year but he has put no deadline on it.
For some reason when he says next year, I hear maybe two or three. Or ten. Or never.

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“I did not start to write slower over the years,” he told the US Metro. “I was working on the first book for six year and four years on the second one. Fantasists who release their novels every year, do not offer books of large volume. These are not 1.5k pages like mine, but, for example, 500. In addition, I have not become younger. Age does not add enthusiasm.”
Here's the thing - the most obvious comparison in my mind is Erikson. Since Storm of Swords in 2000, GRRM has put out 2 books, Erikson has put out 11 just about Malazan, all as long as his, frankly all at least as good, if not better (it was really only GRRM's first three books in the series that were good) than anything that GRRM wrote. Heck just think about all the poetry that Erikson also includes within his novels.

GRRM is just lazy.
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  #143  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:54 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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I think that GRRM's problem is that he simply can't figure out where his story is going.
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  #144  
Old 08-26-2017, 04:26 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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It's only a betrayal if you think that Cersei still has enough soldiers to be more useful alive than dead, and, even more importantly, that she could ever be trusted. Now, she does seem to oddly keep finding soldiers somewhere, but in reality she shouldn't be able to field much more than a few hundred boys and old men at this point (with the exception of however many men Euron has, though he is even less trustworthy than Cersei).
The oddness of the Lannister soldiers is definitely an issue, but hardly Sansa's issue, since she can only work with info she has, which probably shows her that Cersei had soldiers enough to make Danaerys unable to immediately succeed. You cannot blame a character in the story for believing an absurd aspect of her reality. Blame the writers for creating it.

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And she clearly cannot be trusted. She needs killing. It clearly has to happen eventually. Book Sansa probably would have learned enough to recognize the need to be pragmatic. Show Sansa unfortunately still seems as naive as all her kin.
I dunno about that. I suspect if she'd been in that meeting in Dragonstone, she'd have told Tyrion he's a moron if he thinks Cersei would genuinely support them. She's shown her wariness for Cersei several times, this last episode not least by refusing to place herself in Cersei's power again.

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Littlefinger at this point serves no useful purpose for the show. This would be the easiest way to write him out.
But hardly a satisfying or well done way to write him out. Why even have him leave Winterfell if all we need is a quick exit? Have him trip on ice and break his neck. Problem solved.

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Again, maybe this is what happens, but I just don't see any such careful plotting to her actions. It seems like genuine panic. That could just be bad writing. Or bad acting.
Genuine panic made her send the sole guard she trusts to absolutely have her back?
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  #145  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:14 PM
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Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
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The oddness of the Lannister soldiers is definitely an issue, but hardly Sansa's issue, since she can only work with info she has, which probably shows her that Cersei had soldiers enough to make Danaerys unable to immediately succeed. You cannot blame a character in the story for believing an absurd aspect of her reality. Blame the writers for creating it.



I dunno about that. I suspect if she'd been in that meeting in Dragonstone, she'd have told Tyrion he's a moron if he thinks Cersei would genuinely support them. She's shown her wariness for Cersei several times, this last episode not least by refusing to place herself in Cersei's power again.


But hardly a satisfying or well done way to write him out. Why even have him leave Winterfell if all we need is a quick exit? Have him trip on ice and break his neck. Problem solved.


Genuine panic made her send the sole guard she trusts to absolutely have her back?
And making sure Brienne wasn't put into such a compromising situation where she would have to step in between the Stark sisters. So, two birds with one stone.

I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.
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  #146  
Old 08-26-2017, 11:45 PM
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I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.
In the books, yes.

My annoyance is with how the show has mangled her character development. The same is true with Jaime, and increasingly, as they've run out of GRRM material, with Tyrion as well. The show's writers did a good job when they were just adapting material from the books. Whenever they have had to make major changes (with one obvious caveat - the decision to excise Lady Stoneheart was an excellent choice), or to completely invent material, they have done a pretty mediocre job.

Last edited by Kimon; 08-26-2017 at 11:47 PM.
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  #147  
Old 08-27-2017, 10:37 PM
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Pretty good episode, though I still maintain that the Littlefinger bit was poorly set up, and then that its denouement was clumsy. Nice call by Tyrion though thinking that his sister could ever be trusted. But hey, now she still doesn't support them, and instead the Night King has one of their dragons and just used it to ice-fire a breach in the Wall.

At least Jaime finally came to his senses and abandoned her. I suppose I'm somewhat glad that his character survived, as Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has done a good job of acting, but it would have been more poetic (not to mention strategically far more intelligent - why betray the alliance if you're going to let Jaime survive to immediately go and tell them all) had she told Zombie Gregor to kill him.

That frankly is how I would have ended the episode - have that scene with Cersei and Jaime after the Night King and his ice dragon, with the episode closing with Gregor executing Jaime.
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  #148  
Old 08-27-2017, 11:32 PM
connabard connabard is offline
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I'm glad LF is dead, but that was pretty clumsily written.

Honestly Tyrion ever assuming Cersei could be trusted is absolutely asinine, I'm also surprised Jaime thought she was being legitimate saying she'd march North.

I'm totally fine with the incest of Jon and Dany, but it was a little weird having that be the voice-over while they go to the bone zone. But whatever, I guess it's now officially double-confirmed, and same with him not being a bastard.

I wonder if that will put a strain on their relationship; will Dany be afraid he'll try and take the throne?

Also, with only 5 eps for the last season, I imagine it's just going to be huge battle set pieces back-to-back-to-back for nearly the whole season.

Overall, I'm pretty fine with this ep, and I liked them using that song from last finale, Light of the Seven, in this episode again.

EDIT: Actually, I'm thinking Jon will use the revelation of his heritage to get the Northern Lords on board with supporting Dany, "I've been a Targaryen this whole time and you named me King..." blah blah blah

Last edited by connabard; 08-27-2017 at 11:36 PM.
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  #149  
Old 08-28-2017, 12:13 AM
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Well, Littlefinger finally got his due, with a bit of sisterly bonding over it.

Jon and Dany... Yeah, saw that coming a mile away, and HOPEFULLY the fan theories that keep popping up about Jon being a bastard, or still somehow Ned's bastard, or someone elses kid stop.

Probably not though.

Jaime finally left Cersei. That's a plus.
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  #150  
Old 08-28-2017, 01:07 AM
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I'm totally fine with the incest of Jon and Dany, but it was a little weird having that be the voice-over while they go to the bone zone.
Not to mention Tyrion listening at the door. Hell, Bran was probably watching it too.

Overall I liked it. Like I said before, the whole Arya vs Sansa thing was just...weird. If they knew LF was playing them the whole time, why wait months (or whatever) to kill him?

Rhaegar looked too much like Viserys, IMO.
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  #151  
Old 08-28-2017, 02:25 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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And making sure Brienne wasn't put into such a compromising situation where she would have to step in between the Stark sisters. So, two birds with one stone.

I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.
Agreed. Kimon is right that show Sansa has had less character development than book Sansa, whose interactions with Joffrey and Cersei were fantastically written, and who, as Alayne, is turning into a very interesting PoV character. That said, the finale will probably put to rest a lot of the Sansa-hate.

Also, is it just me or are they setting up the Arya-Sansa duo as the only ones capable of reading Cersei and killing her? Cersei played Tyrion and his love for his family like a pro, whereas Sansa and Arya have really the least trust for Cersei. What with Arya basically saying she'd be Sansa's assassin, and Sansa probably having the wisest reaction to Cersei's call for a meeting in King's Landing, I think these two are best placed to finish her off, finally.

I, too, found the whole Littlefinger plot meaningless. Did the girls know already? Seems that way, with the dagger changing hands so often. That has to indicate plotting behind the scenes, right? But why did Sansa wait so long? It really makes very little sense.

Also, why the heck did Dany bring Rhaegal along? If she'd left him behind, Cersei would have given it no thought. By bringing in both her surviving dragons, she makes the absence of the third stand out sharply. Yet another really dumb move.

On the whole, though, this was a decent episode. Especially compared to last week's train wreck.
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  #152  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:26 AM
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Well. Seems like the leaks that came out a year or so ago was right all along.

The only difference I can see is that the leaks said LF would be killed in episode 5 instead of the finale. Plus IIRC they didn't mention the Golden Company.

Still. Good final episode to a mediocre at best season.
Way too rushed and way too little focus on details.

Feels like they had a checklist of where people needed to be for the next season and then just went down one by one and figured out how to get them there.

And yeah. Love how the whole "convincing Cersei"-plan ended up giving the Night King the means to tear down the wall. Morale of the story is: stop being an honorable knobhead and just use your goddamn dragons to burn your enemies.
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  #153  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:52 AM
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Morale of the story is: stop being an honorable knobhead and just use your goddamn dragons to burn your enemies.
Almost as if the Mad King had been reasonable after all, isn't it?
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  #154  
Old 08-28-2017, 02:42 PM
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Almost as if the Mad King had been reasonable after all, isn't it?
No. Nothing reasonable about wanting to torch all of King's Landing with Wild Fire.
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  #155  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:43 PM
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No. Nothing reasonable about wanting to torch all of King's Landing with Wild Fire.
Yeah. I mean. Cersei did that and she's not very reasonable
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  #156  
Old 08-29-2017, 02:19 AM
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A few more things...

Regarding Bran, it's kind of odd that he:

A) Basically told Meera not to let the door slam on the way out, then greets Sam like a long lost brother.
B) For some reason apparently tells no one about Jon's ancestry, until Sam appears and suddenly Bran's practically giggling with excitement to get the story out.


How did Cersei and Euron plan Euron's secret mission to get the Golden Company? I mean, if they didn't know about Jon's wight, did they just sort of have a vague plan that Euron would abandon Cersei mid-council and and hope no one would find it too suspicious? Also, are they really gonna introduce the Golden Company (and presumably new characters) in the final six episodes? Seems way too late to be doing that.

Qyburn's scorpions might be the only way to defeat zombie Viserion now, assuming they can make a giant dragonglass arrow. Unless fire will kill it now, but that seems unlikely. Also, what does an ice dragon breathe? If its just blue fire, wouldn't that be dangerous to the White Walkers/wights? Not to mention it wouldn't really be an "ice" dragon. But if it is breathing ice or whatever, that would hardly damage a giant wall made of ice...

Overall I think I liked this season probably more than most, but it was still a bit disappointing. It would have greatly benefited from being 10 episodes long like all the others, and I'm genuinely worried now that the final season's six episodes will feel even more rushed. At this point I have to wonder if the show runners are getting tired of GoT and ready to move on to their new Confederate thing, because I honestly can't understand why they feel like shorter seasons are better at this point.



One final thing. This scene from Dany's trip to the House of the Undying takes on new meaning:
Quote:
Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it, and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.
So first of all, I guess Rhaegar does look almost exactly like Viserys, so they got that right in the finale.

This has to be Jon and Lyanna, and not Aegon and Elia as previously thought, right? I mean, the name Aegon made it pretty obvious this was...well, Aegon. Until we found out Rhaegar named another one of his kids Aegon Targaryen as well (for some reason??). Rhaegar wasn't present for the birth in the show, but he may have been in the books...and this is a vision anyway, and not necessarily a real life scene.

If this is Jon, and Rhaegar knows there are now two heads of the dragon (ie two parts of the three in the prince that was promised prophecy) accounted for, this means:
A) He also already knows that Dany is one of the three parts. He's not counting his own children, at least, as he would have three at this point. Plus he's staring at her when he says it.
B) Viserys apparently isn't considered one for whatever reason.
C) The third "head" is still out there. This is presumably Tyrion, or possibly Bran...this would probably be a book-only thing anyway, as this prophecy hasn't really been mentioned on the show that I remember, and it would seem far too late to reveal that Tyrion is also a secret Targaryen.

Granted all this has been pretty much guessed already, but the finale seems to confirm this scene is about Jon, and that in turn confirms that Jon and Dany are the two heads of the dragon Rhaegar is talking about.

Last edited by rand; 08-29-2017 at 02:22 AM.
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  #157  
Old 08-29-2017, 05:01 AM
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Also, what does an ice dragon breathe? If its just blue fire, wouldn't that be dangerous to the White Walkers/wights? Not to mention it wouldn't really be an "ice" dragon. But if it is breathing ice or whatever, that would hardly damage a giant wall made of ice...
Liquid Nitrogen. That cools the outer parts of the ice wall so much that it shrinks, but the inner part doesn't (yet), so there suddenly is an enormous amount of stress in the ice, and it all shatters.
Could also be liquid Helium, with a really powerful dragon, but being a giant Helium balloon might cause aerodynamical problems which would impede landing and such. On the other hand, liquid Helium is a superfluid, which would provide for some really cool side benefits in its use as a weapon.
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  #158  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:27 AM
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This has to be Jon and Lyanna, and not Aegon and Elia as previously thought, right?
Uhhh... no. Lyanna died in childbirth, well after Rhaegar's death. Rhaegar wasn't around for Jon's birth. This is definitely Elia, and the Aegon mentioned here is the first Aegon, Rhaegar's elder son.

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I mean, the name Aegon made it pretty obvious this was...well, Aegon. Until we found out Rhaegar named another one of his kids Aegon Targaryen as well (for some reason??). Rhaegar wasn't present for the birth in the show, but he may have been in the books...and this is a vision anyway, and not necessarily a real life scene.
Lyanna named her child Aegon. At this point she had probably heard from the Kingsguard that Rhagar's older son had been killed. And I'm pretty sure Jon's name won't be Aegon in the books, since the original Aegon is still alive, or someone brought up a child that looks like a Targ and told him he was that Aegon. Jon will probably have been named Jahaerys, or some male version of Visenya, but not Viserys, perhaps? Or maybe Rhaegar was hoping for a second girl child to complete the triumvirate, and had no name prepared, and neither did Lyanna, and in the book Jon will be Jon, just Targaryen, instead of Snow.

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If this is Jon, and Rhaegar knows there are now two heads of the dragon (ie two parts of the three in the prince that was promised prophecy) accounted for, this means:
A) He also already knows that Dany is one of the three parts. He's not counting his own children, at least, as he would have three at this point. Plus he's staring at her when he says it.
Rhaegar was not alive when Dany was born. He was probably not even alive when she was conceived, as the Rebels were already on their way to victory when this happened, and Rhaella spent nine months holed up in Dragonstone before Danaerys was born,and this was after most of the Rebellion was done. Rhaegar staring at her could be a sign of his prophetic vision, but he may be mistaking her for his "third" perhaps?

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B) Viserys apparently isn't considered one for whatever reason.
Because Rhaegar mistakenly thought that all three Daragon riders would be his children.

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C) The third "head" is still out there. This is presumably Tyrion, or possibly Bran...this would probably be a book-only thing anyway, as this prophecy hasn't really been mentioned on the show that I remember, and it would seem far too late to reveal that Tyrion is also a secret Targaryen.
Tyrion is a possibility. Aegon, if he proves to be real, could be one, but this is low probability. Bran may be able to warg into one, but I doubt he'd ever ride one.

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Granted all this has been pretty much guessed already, but the finale seems to confirm this scene is about Jon, and that in turn confirms that Jon and Dany are the two heads of the dragon Rhaegar is talking about.
The scene is definitely not about Jon, as Rhaegar was long dead when Jon was born. That said, nothing says that Rhaegar's second interpretation of the Prophesy was correct, either. He was mistaken once, when he assumed he was the Prince that was Promised. He then thought it would be one of his kids, specifically Aegon, and thought whoever Lyanna carried would be the third rider. Maester Aemon thinks Rhaegar was fully wrong, and Danaerys was the Prince that was Promised, but he didn't know Jon was a Targ. Perhaps Rhaegar was right and his son Jon is the one. Or perhaps Danaerys is. Or perhaps there's a prince and princess. Who knows. But Rhaegar knew nothing of Danaerys, except that Rhaella was pregnant. And Rhaella had had more miscarriages than not, so I doubt he felt she would definitely have a child, let alone that she would carry not just a Dragonrider but the woman who would birth three Dragons.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 08-29-2017 at 06:30 AM.
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  #159  
Old 08-29-2017, 11:33 PM
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Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
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So, all things considered, the North won't have much time to really set up camp with the Wall breached and a massive army of wights led by the Night King on top of a dead dragon coming (I've already seen people asking if this meant the Night King was a Targaryen... Yeah).

That said; if they had time, how do you think little Lyanna Mormont would react to Dany?
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:52 AM
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I'm more curious to see Jorah and Lyanna interact
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