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  #21  
Old 01-18-2010, 10:59 PM
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If 1000 spans = 1 mile = 5280 feet. One span is equal to 5.280 feet in length. 70 times 5.28 equals 369.6 feet.
30 times 5.28 feet equals 158.4 feet.
Not quite. Randland measurements do not equal Realworld measurements.

From the glossary: 10 inches=1 foot; 3 feet = 1 pace; 2 paces = 1 span; 1000 spans = 1 mile; 4 miles = 1 league.

So 1 Randland mile equals 5000 of our feet, not 5280.
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Not quite. Randland measurements do not equal Realworld measurements.

From the glossary: 10 inches=1 foot; 3 feet = 1 pace; 2 paces = 1 span; 1000 spans = 1 mile; 4 miles = 1 league.

So 1 Randland mile equals 5000 of our feet, not 5280.
Thanks for that information, Davian, that a foot is a base of 10 not 12. I hadn't know what an inch in the story represented, so I made an assumption RJ used a base of 12; considering RJ wrote from South Carolina, not a place where the metric standard is common. I should of made that assumption more obvious, in retrospect.


However in the future please quote the which Book Glossary your referring too. Its a goose chase going from one e-book to another to search for the term...the first 5 books I check came up with nothing at all, and even the 'The World of Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time' lacks this detailed information.

I ended up finding that definition for an foot, in "The Great Hunt" glossary. 10 inches = 1 foot. Wonder if an inch, is really an inch in length or not in Randland? Sigh.


The end result of this definition change is that that "Spire", Bayle Domon tells Mat, Rand about in tEoW Book is an equivalent of 500 feet tall according to U.S. units of measure.

Not 528 feet tall as I thought before in my prior posting in this thread;
158.4 feet + 369.6 feet = 528 feet

Only a difference of 28 feet in height.


Going back to Randland terms of measurement:

A 100 spans in terms of length in inches is equal to 6000 inches.

10 inches = 1 foot;
30 inches = 3 feet = 1 pace;
60 inches = 6 feet = 2 paces = 1 span;
6000 inches = 600 feet = 200 paces = 100 spans.


Converting 100 spans into common U.S. units of feet, just divide 6000/12 to find the number of U.S. unit of feet that "Spire" is, which is 500.

Of course, this assumes an WoT inch = U.S. unit inch.


Ethenielle claimed that the "Spire" in the Black Hills was 70 spans tall, or 350 feet (U.S. units)- all above the treeline. Plus some unknown amount of length partially buried, and how ever tall the treeline is in that area of the Black Hills surrounding the Spire in question.


In summary the changing of the unit definition of inch from 12 to 10, to equal a foot, does not to materially change the chance that the "Spire" that Bayle Domon and Ethenielle each speak of is the very same "Spire".
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Last edited by FelixPax; 01-19-2010 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Fixed a word usage error.
  #23  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:50 AM
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That's completely untrue...we know that there are villages in the Black Hills and all around Tar Valon...we also know there'd be more if there was protection from a gov't...what was Hardan had villages that were fortified as Shienar and Cairhien simply didn't want to protect them. Some parts are unpopulated but we have enough clues to know that there are still some settlements in the area. TV has the power and money to have built settlements, fortifications, etc...but they chose to isolate themselves.
There is a difference between villages and land worth claiming. Also, the Black Hills are a long way from Tar Valon so I'm not sure why you mention them in the context. Tar Valon hasn't claimed any land since Hawkwing's time, and there appears to be a lot of reasons for that, not least Hawkwing's attitude toward Aes Sedai that is part of what drove them into isolation, and the 20-year siege that made the land around Tar Valon a generally bad place to live.

The reason why Cairhien couldn't hold the land between current borders and the Erinin is the same reason why Andor couldn't hold the Two Rivers: not worth sending out the tax man for.
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  #24  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:25 AM
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There is a difference between villages and land worth claiming.
Davian, didn't claim they were a nation...only that they existed. There are villages within the Black Hills as the Queen of Kandor tells us, they do exist now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
the 20-year siege that made the land around Tar Valon a generally bad place to live.
Tar Valon isn't that bad of a place, for moneymaking actually.

What about all those little villages just off the ends of the six major bridges of Tar Valon?
Even that little old cheese making village, Gawyn camped in, for a good part of tGS book, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
The reason why Cairhien couldn't hold the land between current borders and the Erinin is the same reason why Andor couldn't hold the Two Rivers: not worth sending out the tax man for.
It's far more complex than that, Cairhien's border control issues are more tied up in the decline of its own government's services. Not to mention all the political infighting. The lost of the monopoly on overland trade into Shara for unique trade goods to re-sell elsewhere in the Westlands. The Aiel War which savaged Cairhien lands, and led to skilled individuals to flee the nation to safer places, e.g. all classes of farmers. Even foreign merchants would flee Cairhien in mass, after the mass poverty created by the Aiel War. Remember all those short native born Cairhiens? Just easier to make a living easier elsewhere.


In regards to Two Rivers, it is un-recorded when former Farashelle was incorporated into the current nation of Andor. Andor is basically a re-created smaller version of Coremanda, yet the area of Two Rivers was never part of Coremanda, which existed after the Breaking as one of the ten nation of the "Compact".

The majority of Murandy's lands were once part of Coremanda, but its now a separate nation with a King who's likely built a huge army now (Gareth Bayle's insight).

It's no really surprise Andor barely held onto Two Rivers, even at the start of the series.
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
There is a difference between villages and land worth claiming. Also, the Black Hills are a long way from Tar Valon so I'm not sure why you mention them in the context. Tar Valon hasn't claimed any land since Hawkwing's time, and there appears to be a lot of reasons for that, not least Hawkwing's attitude toward Aes Sedai that is part of what drove them into isolation, and the 20-year siege that made the land around Tar Valon a generally bad place to live.

The reason why Cairhien couldn't hold the land between current borders and the Erinin is the same reason why Andor couldn't hold the Two Rivers: not worth sending out the tax man for.
Howver, there are villages and most of them supply Tar Valon. Yet, Tar Valon doesn't officially claim them or even protect them. Its good land and it would have more settlers if it was officially protected. This would make Tar Valon a nation-state as well as the main religious/political force on the continent. Its like the Pope confining himself to the Vatican despite no one being in control of all of central Italy. There's a huge power void there and it makes no sense that Tar Valon didn't immediately reclaim its territory following Hawkwing's death.

I think its a BA plot.
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  #26  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:07 AM
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It may also be that the witches did not want to be openly meddling in politics.
If they have their own country, then they would be far more easily suspected of having plans for conquest of their own.

Case in point: if they had had all the land suggested they take at the beginning of the series, then I have very little doubt that Elaida would have sent out her armies in order to expand her domain.
  #27  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It may also be that the witches did not want to be openly meddling in politics.
If they have their own country, then they would be far more easily suspected of having plans for conquest of their own.

Case in point: if they had had all the land suggested they take at the beginning of the series, then I have very little doubt that Elaida would have sent out her armies in order to expand her domain.

Perhaps but they would also have had far more normal relations with their neighbors and fellow nations...and more influence as a large country would have given them even more wealth. There is every reason for them to have a nation and no real good ones for them not to. It makes sense that Ishy would want to limit/isolate AS to the Tower so they lose any influence with the rest of Randland.
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  #28  
Old 01-19-2010, 04:55 PM
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Perhaps but they would also have had far more normal relations with their neighbors and fellow nations...and more influence as a large country would have given them even more wealth. There is every reason for them to have a nation and no real good ones for them not to. It makes sense that Ishy would want to limit/isolate AS to the Tower so they lose any influence with the rest of Randland.
Seizing direct control over these territories would have provided one obvious benefit- grain and other supplies could have been brought into the city of Tar Valon as taxation (either with or in lieu of monetary tribute). This would have been an obvious boon, as the tiny hamlets directly adjacent to Tar Valon can by no means be the only source of supplies for a city the size of Tar Valon.

There would be however some minor, and at least one major disadvantage to direcly controlling the region. The most obvious of minor complications would be the need to defend and govern these areas, which would mean vastly expanding their armed forces from the token tower guard to a true standing army along with numerous garrisons and harmosts, or else Aes Sedai governors. This would require quite a bit of money, not to mention the potential for giving rise to semi-autonomous Aes Sedai overlords in the countryside, a potential source of political turmoil, and rivals for the Amyrlin. Could one perhaps have seen interregnums in which claimants to the Amyrlin seat began raising armies in the countryside and marching them to besiege the city, or else of numerous Amyrlins being declared by their armies and locales in these various rural districts aftr the death of an Amyrlin? The more serious potential problem however is in its potential for furthering the decline in Aes Sedai recruitment. Certainly they would now have the chance to directly test all the young lasses living under their suzerainty, but would women living in other kingdoms feel comfortable coming to train in the tower if it was no longer an independent organization, but instead a kingdom which might potentially come into political struggle with their own homeland?

Last edited by Kimon; 01-19-2010 at 05:00 PM.
  #29  
Old 01-19-2010, 06:07 PM
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It seems likely the mysterious "Spire" Bayle Domon mentions in tEoW book, is approximately the same height as the Great Pyramid of Khufu.

Bayle Domon's Mystery Spire = 500 U.S. units of feet in height or 100 spans in WoT units

Great Pyramid of Khufu = approx. 481 U.S. units of feet in height; 146.59 meters or 96.2 spans approximately in WoT units.


Roughly a difference of 4.8 spans approximately between the two built objects in height.


Is this Spire found in the Black Hills area, a one time Wonder of the knew known WoT world, during the Ages of Legends? Similar to the Great Pyramind of Khufu reputation as one of the seven Wonders of the known world among ancient Greeks?


I would not be surprised in the least to learn that a large city or town once surrounded this Spire in the Black Hills. Probably in scattered ruins, or buried under the ground are in the general surrounding area.

The Guide lists these lost cities as known possibilities: Anolle'sanna, Cuebiyarsande, or Rhahime Naille.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Perhaps but they would also have had far more normal relations with their neighbors and fellow nations...and more influence as a large country would have given them even more wealth. There is every reason for them to have a nation and no real good ones for them not to. It makes sense that Ishy would want to limit/isolate AS to the Tower so they lose any influence with the rest of Randland.
Agreed, there should be some nation(s) in existence now where the Black Hills are located.

Tar Valon once controlled a southeast corner of the Black Hills, up to about a bend in the direction of the River Luan.

The main nations which once governed the Black Hills recently were Oburun, Roemalle, Dal Calain, Masenashar, and Caembarin also held a small part too in the most southern range of the mountains. However over all Roemalle and Oburun seems to have held control and governed the largest parts of the Black Hills, according to the maps I have seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian
I think its a BA plot.
If it's a BA plot that implies Ishamael too, especially considering the very long time span involved here.

We know during the Age of Legends the Shadow's side captured the area's surrounding the large sa'angreal statues. We also know from stories that individuals have died touching the Spire in the Black Hills:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book, Chapter Prologue "Deceptive Appearances"
The stories of this place spoke of mad visions, of the dead walking, and death at touching the spire
Which is striking similar to what Lanfear feared for Rand, dying by touching directly the giant sa'angreal statue through the source; after he came on sight of the male Choedan Kal in Cairhien.

The area encompassing once Aramaelle nation, one of Ten Nation of the Compact, was huge. From it's western border with Aridhol all the way to the northeast into where once Malkier existed. The Trollocs Wars seemingly crushed the nation of Aramaelle in many pieces. One of those pieces was Aramaelle's control of the Black Hills. This crushing of Aramaelle occurred on Aridhol doorstep, no less too.

The Black Hills are also an open flank to both Kandor and Tar Valon. Throw in an ancient giant sa'angreal statue, the advantages of hiding large numbers of forces easily in the Black Hills, and Waygates access points. The Black Hills seems to be one of the more important strategic places in the Westlands, as one could move Trollocs by surprise all at once into Saldaea, Kandor, Tar Valon, Andor without crossing one single major moving body of water.

Yes, the Black Hills would be a perfect place for Ishamael to use.
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  #30  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Seizing direct control over these territories would have provided one obvious benefit- grain and other supplies could have been brought into the city of Tar Valon as taxation (either with or in lieu of monetary tribute). This would have been an obvious boon, as the tiny hamlets directly adjacent to Tar Valon can by no means be the only source of supplies for a city the size of Tar Valon.

There would be however some minor, and at least one major disadvantage to direcly controlling the region. The most obvious of minor complications would be the need to defend and govern these areas, which would mean vastly expanding their armed forces from the token tower guard to a true standing army along with numerous garrisons and harmosts, or else Aes Sedai governors. This would require quite a bit of money, not to mention the potential for giving rise to semi-autonomous Aes Sedai overlords in the countryside, a potential source of political turmoil, and rivals for the Amyrlin. Could one perhaps have seen interregnums in which claimants to the Amyrlin seat began raising armies in the countryside and marching them to besiege the city, or else of numerous Amyrlins being declared by their armies and locales in these various rural districts aftr the death of an Amyrlin? The more serious potential problem however is in its potential for furthering the decline in Aes Sedai recruitment. Certainly they would now have the chance to directly test all the young lasses living under their suzerainty, but would women living in other kingdoms feel comfortable coming to train in the tower if it was no longer an independent organization, but instead a kingdom which might potentially come into political struggle with their own homeland?
Kimon, a governor need not be aes sedai, just needs to act on orders from the Amyrlin seat. Aes sedai would be neede as a sort of controller, periodically check if the governor is still honest and fair
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  #31  
Old 01-20-2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post

Which is striking similar to what Lanfear feared for Rand, dying by touching directly the giant sa'angreal statue through the source; after he came on sight of the male Choedan Kal in Cairhien.

The Black Hills are also an open flank to both Kandor and Tar Valon. Throw in an ancient giant sa'angreal statue, the advantages of hiding large numbers of forces easily in the Black Hills, and Waygates access points. The Black Hills seems to be one of the more important strategic places in the Westlands, as one could move Trollocs by surprise all at once into Saldaea, Kandor, Tar Valon, Andor without crossing one single major moving body of water.

Yes, the Black Hills would be a perfect place for Ishamael to use.
I very much doubt it is a sa'angreal, because the qoute says death to who touches it, not death to channelers who touch it (be them male or female).

It is interesting to comtemplate on stuff in randland that would kill at a touch?

afaik the only reference to near instant death without channeling is the mention of some poisonous snake or toad in the waste
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  #32  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:47 AM
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I very much doubt it is a sa'angreal, because the qoute says death to who touches it, not death to channelers who touch it (be them male or female).

It is interesting to comtemplate on stuff in randland that would kill at a touch?

afaik the only reference to near instant death without channeling is the mention of some poisonous snake or toad in the waste
Maybe its a radio transmitter that's still working or something radioactive?

A radio/radar transmitter will kill you if you get too close to it...it will basically cook you from the inside and rather quickly if its a big one (think AEGIS level).
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  #33  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:52 AM
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I very much doubt it is a sa'angreal, because the qoute says death to who touches it, not death to channelers who touch it (be them male or female).

It is interesting to comtemplate on stuff in randland that would kill at a touch?
Well, of course this is an antenna. I guess if it happened to be facing something emitting radiation, it could focus enough to fry anyone touching the focal area. (spire)
  #34  
Old 01-20-2010, 12:24 PM
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But we know it doesn't kill you by touching it. The AS said so!
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:25 PM
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But we know it doesn't kill you by touching it. The AS said so!
I tend to think the stories are completely overblown to begin with. Its just bad superstitions that keep people away.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:58 PM
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Or perhaps it kills if you touch it at night, and the AS tried it in the daytime.
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lurk View Post
Kimon, a governor need not be aes sedai, just needs to act on orders from the Amyrlin seat. Aes sedai would be neede as a sort of controller, periodically check if the governor is still honest and fair
I take it my mention of a harmost as the alternative to aes sedai governors was too obscure a term to make clear what I meant?
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
I take it my mention of a harmost as the alternative to aes sedai governors was too obscure a term to make clear what I meant?
it was, because i could not translate it, but the quote is mainly about AS governors and them possibly be rivals. So naturally that drew my attention
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
But we know it doesn't kill you by touching it. The AS said so!
Harmless to whom? To Ethenielle, as a non-channeler? To all female channelers? To all non-channelers? Or to all people, whether a channeler or a non-channeler?


Nianh does not to who, it is harmless to outside of Ethenielle herself. That is if Nianh was telling the truth. Nianh could have incorrect knowledge and/or be a Black Ajah for all we know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers, Chapter Prologue 'Deceptive Appearances
Ethenielle did not consider herself fanciful, yet she shivered slightly. Nianh said the spire was a fragment from the Age of Legends, and harmless. With luck, the Aes Sedai had no reason to recall that conversation of years ago. A pity the dead could not be made to walk, here. Legend said Kirukan had beheaded a false Dragon with her own hands, and borne two sons by another man who could channel. Or maybe the same one. She might have known how to go about their purpose and survive.

If Nianh was telling the truth, and truly was correct that it is harmless to both Ethenielle and herself. Then we can consider it, most likely an item of the power for men not women, I think.


In regards to the stories being [I]overblown[I], Siuan once commented that Logain would of been fried if used the giant male sa'angreal in Cairhien-- she believed.

Lastly, Lanfear implied she knew of a male sa'angreal more powerful than the Callandor but less than the Choedan Kal.

This mysterious "Spire", mentioned by both Bayle Domon and the Queen of Kandor, just might this 2nd most powerful male Sa'angreal implied earlier by Lanfear previously to Rand.
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