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  #1  
Old 05-28-2010, 02:08 PM
isamu237 isamu237 is offline
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Default I'm still clueless (stupid Demandred)

I was going to make a long, detailed post as this is my first time back to the boards in many months; but I'm really freaking tired.
So to make this short: Where the hell is Dem and what's he been up to?
I've been thinking on this for awhile and even made other posts about it. But even with a (relatively) recent re-read I still an only guess. Things to consider:
-Dem, Semi and Messy have formed a loose triumvirate.
-Dem comments that given where Semi and Messy are he wonders how much the DO has known for how long.

Presumably, Dem would be placed at a point analogous to the WT and Seanchan and at an early time in order to sow the most chaos. The only thing I can figure, especially in light of other recent threads, is that he's the man behind Taim. Either that or he's no where in particular and all over the place.
Thoughts? Comments? Eviscerations?
  #2  
Old 05-28-2010, 06:42 PM
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Demandred is somewhere where he is building his forces and Sammael seemed to think rightly or wrongly that he was somewhere in the South.

The potential places he might be are
1 - With the Borderland armies whispering poison into the ears of the rules
2- Among the blight building up the shadowspawn armies
3- Among the Sharans are are quite powerful and not really been seen but there is an outside chance that they may show up.
4- Secretly in Murandy where the king has in recent times started to build an army of his own, with the help of the Band of the Red Hand.
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  #3  
Old 05-28-2010, 07:00 PM
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There is the comment that Demandred had a hand in Rand's kidnapping, despite how it ended that lends strength to the idea that Demandred is involved with the Black Tower.

Also him ordering Asha'man.

And talking about having an army.
  #4  
Old 05-28-2010, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu237 View Post
-Dem, Semi and Messy have formed a loose triumvirate.
-Dem comments that given where Semi and Messy are he wonders how much the DO has known for how long.

Presumably, Dem would be placed at a point analogous to the WT and Seanchan and at an early time in order to sow the most chaos. The only thing I can figure, especially in light of other recent threads, is that he's the man behind Taim. Either that or he's no where in particular and all over the place.
Thoughts? Comments? Eviscerations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch13 wonderful news
"You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred." Osan'gar flinched, flicking his tongue against his lips, and she laughed throatily. "My own charge is . . ." She pressed a thumb down on the edge of the chair as if pinning something and laughed again.
Obviously aprt of Demandred's assignment is Rand. The question is if there is anything else.
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:05 PM
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I don't know why I didn't think about the Blight. Demy is the big general for the Dark, the Blight grew quiet but we know something big is being marshaled and it would make sense for Dem to be back there while he also keeps tabs on Rand through his minions.
Setting up Dem vs. Lan? Squeeeee!
  #6  
Old 05-31-2010, 04:04 PM
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My theory of what Demandred has done is the following:

1. Demandred freed Taim, and influences the Black Tower.
2. Demandred uses the Band of the Red Hand to solidify rule with himself as king in Murandy.

Okay we'll deal with the first one first.

I think Demandred freed Taim. Why? We know from rumors (both Rand and Elaidia) that he was freed "by his followers". Then how come we haven't SEEN these followers in the entire series? We know that Rand is the most powerful male channeler in the world, and that Taim is slightly weaker. Rand only knew how to break out of a shield with LT's knowledge, Aiel, AND AS helping him. It is highly doubtful that Taim knew how to break free on his own. That means that somebody has to take care of the AS guarding him. The Aiel were struggling against the AS guarding Rand, so I would imagine it would be even more difficult for random "wetlanders" to do it. So it had to require 1. the forsaken 2. the black ajah.

Of the two, I think the forsaken is more likely. Mainly because of these unfounded "rumors" about how he escaped, which would point to compulsion. The Black Ajah is a very real possibity, and we know from Verin's notes that the Black Ajah is most heavily invested in the Red. That points to Mesanna.

However, there are other details about Taim that points to him being rescued by a male forsaken. For one, he has a LOT of knowledge about the OP and the AoL. The weaves displayed by the Asha'man totally blow both Rand's and the Seanchan's weaves out of the water. (Although not quite up to par with what Lews Therin can do) There's also his comments like "Travel", (uppercase intended, and it was the first time he saw a gateway) "so-called Aiel", angreal and sa'angreal, etc. For a long time these facts pointed towards Taim=Demandred, however RJ has affirmed on numerous ocassions that the two are not the same. But Taim had to get this knowledge from somewhere.

Out of all the male channelers, Rhavin and Demandred make the most sense. Sammael is a possibilty, but it didn't seem to be his style...plus, if he had the Asha'man backing him up, Illian would have ended up being a death trap for Rand instead of his plan to pull back to Shadar Logath. Aran'Gar/Osan'gar were busy being...well, dead, same as Ishmael. Asmodean became such a weakling that if he did it, Rand should have heard about it. (Remember that Rand did learn of Asmo's plan to make Coldain an opossing car'a'carn by giving him the dragon arms)

The argument for Rhavin being that one that freed Taim is that for one, Taim ended up in Andor, showing himself immediately after Rhavin died. And Rhavin has shown us that he's good at manipulating AS. The argument against him is that we have seen his POV, and there was nothing that hinted involvement with Taim. Also, its hard to justify why Rhavin would just keep Taim hanging around doing nothing for several months.

The argument for Demandred is much stronger. First, from what we know of Demandred's backstory, Taim character is waaay too similar to Demandred. Both "chaffed at being #2". Both are "almost, but not quite" as powerful as Rand. Both are well-renowned battle generals. We also know from the Asha'man attack on Rand that Demandred does have some influence over the Black Tower. Then there is also Taim's comment "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" which was originated from Demandred. I think all this points to Demandred being the more likely candidate for Taim's release.

Okay, now the second one. Demandred in Murandy. The main reason we deduce this is from Sammael's conversation with Graendal. Two things. First, Sammael places Demandred in the south. Second, Sammael states that "he always liked using proxies.

Sammael's first comment is a little confusing. The only place south of his nation, Illian, is the Sea Folk islands. However, they've played a very small role in the series, and noting has indicated they are being controlled by one of the forsaken. The only interpretation that makes sense is that when Sammael says "south" he's referring to either south of Arad Doman, or south as in the southern portion of the continent. We know from Rand that Andor, Cairhien, Tear, and Illian is considered "north and east". That leaves "South and West", so the possibilities are Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara, Ghealdan, and Murandy. Toss out Arad Doman and Tarabon because they're probably "west"; plus Graedral was already in Arad Doman and Tarabon was a mess before all the forsaken were freed. Originally I thought Demandred was with the Seanchan, however now we know that Semirhage was behind them. That rules out Amadicia, and Altara. Shara is out because that's waaay to the east, beyond the Aiel Waste. Borderlands are out because, well, that's as north as you can get. And from what we've seen of the borderland rulers, they know nothing of Rand's whereabouts...if they had one of the forsaken amongst them, it would be pretty obvious. That leaves Ghealdan and Murandy.

Of the two, I think Murandy is more likely for a couple reasons. First, the Prophet made a huge mess of Ghealdan. And from his POV in TGS, we know that he genuinely believes in the Dragon as a savior, and the Shadow as an enemy. If the forsaken were truly at work in Ghealdan, one would think that someone would've gotten to the Prophet and controlled *him*. And Alliende hasn't shown any signs of Forsaken influence either.

Murandy also makes sense because of Sammael's comment that Demandred "likes using proxies". This could refer to the Asha'man or Seanchan. But it could also refer to the Band of the Red Hand, while Mat was off galivanting with AS...the timing was perfect. We also have Demandred's comment in TGS that "his rule is secure, and his army stands ready". We've had quite alot of Tuon's POV and its pretty obvious she's not a Darkfriend, and not influenced the way that Morgase was. That kinda throws out the Seanchan, plus the fact we know that turf was covered by Semihage anyway. The Asha'man would certain fill the "army" part of his comment, but certainly not the "rule" portion. That implies an actual nation, and the only nation that fits the timeframe is Murandy. Everything else was either conquered by Rand, conquered by the Seanchan, controlled by Graendral, made a mess by the Prophet, or was unchanged (ie borderlands). Illian is also adjacent to Murandy, which might explain why Sammael seems to know more of Demandred's plans than any other Forsaken.

So yeah. Rather wordy, but that's why I think Demandred is in Murandy and has influence over the Black Tower.

Last edited by knightofround; 05-31-2010 at 04:35 PM.
  #7  
Old 05-31-2010, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by knightofround View Post
Of the two, I think Murandy is more likely for a couple reasons. First, the Prophet made a huge mess of Ghealdan. And from his POV in TGS, we know that he genuinely believes in the Dragon as a savior, and the Shadow as an enemy. If the forsaken were truly at work in Ghealdan, one would think that someone would've gotten to the Prophet and controlled *him*. And Alliende hasn't shown any signs of Forsaken influence either.
What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.
  #8  
Old 05-31-2010, 09:38 PM
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What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.
KoD may provide a hint as to which Forsaken was puppeteering Masema. At the faux-Ansaline Gardens, Moridin discloses the possibility of either a re-emergence of Sammael, or else of someone pretending to be him. Semirhage asks if Moridin knows what orders the pseudo-Sammael gave, Moridin admits his ignorance, and then Demandred questions his intel on Sammael's death. And then, Aran'gar reveals this thought:

Quote:
A remarkable admission coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her game. Or whether Sammael was alive.
One could argue that perhaps Aran'gar is merely referring to her disguise as Halima, but the statement would seem to imply more than that. Certainly impersonating the Dragon so as to give orders to his henchman, the Prophet, would seem better parallelism to someone impersonating Sammael so as to give orders to his henchmen, the Myrddraal.

There is of course another issue raised by this passage. Why exactly is Demandred so sure of the reliability of his intel about the demise of Sammael. We know that Demandred and Osan'gar were set to watch him. Osan'gar got his report of the incident from Rand, yet it stands to reason that Demandred got confirmation from someone other than Osan'gar. That person was presumably not Moridin. Is this just a red herring meant to sow suspicion of Bashere? Certainly Min's ominous viewing of him has never adequately been explained.
  #9  
Old 06-01-2010, 12:24 AM
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Brandon confirmed on tour that someone was controlling Masema.
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  #10  
Old 06-01-2010, 03:45 AM
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2. Demandred uses the Band of the Red Hand to solidify rule with himself as king in Murandy.
No.

Demandred has no secret identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightofround View Post
Okay, now the second one. Demandred in Murandy. The main reason we deduce this is from Sammael's conversation with Graendal. Two things. First, Sammael places Demandred in the south. Second, Sammael states that "he always liked using proxies.

The only interpretation that makes sense is that when Sammael says "south" he's referring to either south of Arad Doman, or south as in the southern portion of the continent.
At the time Sammael made that statement about "events in the South" he controlled a good chunk of the "south" and the other big chunk of the "South," Tear, was massing an army on his border under the command of a "Proxy" with another large (and growing) force marching from Cairhein to reinforce them under the command of another "proxy." Also at around that time, The Seanchan were taking control of Tarabon, which was south of Sammael's location when he made the statement.

Sammael himself made overtures to Rand for a truce or even alliance until the rest of the Forsaken were dealt with; he would have no trouble believing Rand refused because Demandred had already made a deal with him.

The only thing going on in Murandy at that time was the Rebel Tower forming in Salidar; clearly the domain of Mesaana and Halima.

Pedron Niall had ordered Jaichim Carradin to stir up trouble in Altara and Murandy, but he'd only begun stirring trouble in Altara and I don't recall that he ever actually got around to Murandy. If he did, it was after Sammael's statement about Events to the South.

Of all the possible connotations of "south" at the time Sammael made that statement, Murandy has the fewest "events" for Sammael to be referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightofround View Post
So yeah. Rather wordy, but that's why I think Demandred is in Murandy and has influence over the Black Tower.
How much influence Demandred has over the BT is debateable, but it is undeniable that he does have some.

That he's in Murandy is, IMHO, doubtful -- he would almost certainly have to be masquerading as King Rhoedran for that situation to be "ready to march" in the service of the DO and he is the only Forsaken who has not appeared as anyone other than himself -- Moridin's appearance as "the wanderer" in Shadar Logoth may or may not count as a disguise, but he didn't introduce himself as Moridin either.

I think Sammael's comment about using "proxies" is a red herring because Sammael doesn't trust subordinates enough to give them a task and then let them do it; Demandred does.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
One could argue that perhaps Aran'gar is merely referring to her disguise as Halima, but the statement would seem to imply more than that. Certainly impersonating the Dragon so as to give orders to his henchman, the Prophet, would seem better parallelism to someone impersonating Sammael so as to give orders to his henchmen, the Myrddraal.
Someone that Slayer believed to be a male Forsaken put a hit out on Rand, which could be what Aran'gar is referring to. Later on in the same POV she expresses the intention to kill Rand against orders, after all.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:03 PM
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Someone that Slayer believed to be a male Forsaken put a hit out on Rand, which could be what Aran'gar is referring to. Later on in the same POV she expresses the intention to kill Rand against orders, after all.
Agreed. This is also a strong possibility, especially as in that same scene at the Ansaline Gardens she offers this thoughtcrime:

Quote:
She had no objections to killing these two if she happened to come across them, but Moridin was going to be terribly disappointed over Rand Al'Thor.
Certainly using a disguise so as to give orders to Luc/Isam to off the Dragon w/o actually leaving a clear trail for Moridin back to herself would fit with this. That does not however detract from the possibility of it also fitting with her turning the Prophet into a marionette. The Wise Ones with Perrin made clear that dreamwalkers had seen that Masema was a threat to the Dragon and had to be put down. Keep in mind that Masema had wanted to see Rand in person. Perhaps the pseudo-Dragon was not merely convincing him that Perrin was a DF, but also that the real Dragon was an imposter...
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:52 PM
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Default Quickie..

If Arangar tried using a male disguise, it might fail and give her away since she's female (shoulders, hips, etc) yet if she tried impersonating a female, it wouldn't do to have someone notice she was using saidin. It would be a dead give away. So Arangar's impersonation might have to be strictly rationed. She may not want to turn up in places where both AS and ashaman are present for instance, in fact I think one on one encounters may be her/his best bet.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:02 PM
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If Arangar tried using a male disguise, it might fail and give her away since she's female (shoulders, hips, etc) yet if she tried impersonating a female, it wouldn't do to have someone notice she was using saidin. It would be a dead give away. So Arangar's impersonation might have to be strictly rationed. She may not want to turn up in places where both AS and ashaman are present for instance, in fact I think one on one encounters may be her/his best bet.
Hence her failure to maintain her ruse at Shadar Logoth, and her pushing of Delana to have the healed Logain killed. And, of course, her forced flight from amongst the rebels after Jahar felt her weaving.
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:10 PM
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What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.
Hmm thats a good theory, never thought of that. But Demandred was one of the three great generals of the Shadow, the others being Sammael and Rahvin. Setting up the Prophet, and impersonating Rand seems a bit...not his style. But it would make sense under the framework he was doing it to become the best "chaos guy" for the DO...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
No.

Demandred has no secret identity
Nice one-liner. Any proof to back it up? All that I've seen said by the authoris is that Demandred is that we haven't seen his alter-ego yet. And we certainly haven't seen Rhoedran yet. In fact, when Talmanes reveals Rhoedran's plan to Egwene in book 8, Egwene expresses surprise. Thinking something to the effect that she "didn't think Rhoedran was capable of making such a plan". Of course it could also be ZombieSammael, who knows.

I think you have a good point with "events to the south". For a long time I thought it was the Seanchan, however since we know Semi was there I think it would be unlikely Demi was there too...what with the whole "the forsaken don't trust each other, so they die" theme. Another possibility could be the Prophet. Yet another lead deals with the whiteclock-negotiated treaty between Andor, Murandy, and Illian...the talks were mentioned frequently in the series, but never its resolution, or *why* they were happening in the first place.

I still believe that freeing Taim/Murandy is the best guess of what he's been doing. Maybe mixing Masema in theretoo. We just have so little to go on since he's been such an enigma. We also his comment at the end of book 6 at Shayol Ghul "Have I not done well, my Lord?" and then the DO's laughter echoes in his head. There were only three significant events that happened in Book 6: the establishment of the Black Tower, Egwene becoming Rebel Amrylin, and Dumai Wells. I think Masema's declaration of war on the Whitecloaks was also towards the end of book 5, so its possible with the time-disconnect that was a factor too.

Sammael's statements plus the process of elimination are really all we have. What do you think he's been doing?

Last edited by knightofround; 06-03-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:32 PM
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I believe he's with Murandy, with Masema and the Whitecloaks (Asunawa?) as proxies. Just so much is happening in relation to those groups / countries together. Amadicia, Ghealdan, Murandy, Altara with mentions of Asha'man in Murandy as well, though it has to end somewhere Demandred can only stretch so far.

And if Danelle turns out to be Mesaana, "Danelle reports to Elaida and her Council that Pedron Niall is conducting negotiations trying to get Altara and Murandy to cede land to Illian." would be pretty funny in hindsight, if Demandred really is behind those groups.
  #17  
Old 06-04-2010, 06:23 AM
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Nice one-liner. Any proof to back it up?
Not really. Just a very strong suspicion that whenever RJ needed a belly laugh, he checked up on the latest Demandred theory.

The basic assumption behind most Demandred thories is that he must have an alter-ego because all of the other Forsaken have assumed a third age identity, and I think that assumption is false.

IF Demandred works through Proxies, or just uses a normal military mindset about chain-of-command he does NOT need an alter-ego and if he has no alter-ego, none of the theories about his location are plausible.

One of the things about Demandred don't factor into their theories is that Demandred thinks of himself as a General:
WH Ch 35
Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! Snarling, he began to retreat amid the crackle of burning trees and the thunder of explosions. Away from the key. Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not.
Demandred might have been behind Masema's visions, but he would not have been directly responsible -- Masema was more Mesaana's style of Chaos anyway and the probable agents of his visions are part of Mesaana's minions.

Demandred might be responsible for Rhoedran's sudden urge to build a national army of Murandy and sudden interest in military matters in general but Murandy is in such a weak position strategically, it wouldn't rank as more than a secondary or diversionary force to a General building a base of power.

Wherever Demandred is, it isn't someplace we've spent any amount of time, he isn't hiding behind a third age persona, and he isn't building an army with no strategic line of retreat.

Personally I think he's behind the rumours of civil war in Shara and has completely overturned their culture to make the Ayyad the Rulers-in-name as well as Rulers-in-fact.
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by WH, Chapter 22, Out of Thin Air
"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.
Yet more circumstantial evidence that Demandred isn't using an alter-ego. If he had been, then appearing as himself would not be something he would need do in this way.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Yet more circumstantial evidence that Demandred isn't using an alter-ego. If he had been, then appearing as himself would not be something he would need do in this way.
Also, when combined with his failure to recognise Damer Flinn at the Cleansing, strongly suggestive that he has very little to do with the BT. If he were heavily involved withthe BT, Either Taim or Demandred would be redundant in giving orders to Gedwyn & Co. Given Demandred's "General" mindset (just) Taim would have given the orders if he worked for Demandred.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:18 AM
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Yup, I am in that faction. The question is 'Where is Demandred', or 'What is he up to?', not 'Who is Demandred'. Demandred is Demandred, and he's set up to be one of the biggest red herrings in the series. After all, 'almost' is the story of his life.
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