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  #1  
Old 11-05-2011, 02:06 PM
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Default The murders in the tower

Now, I know that they've sort of more or less been solved. Or at least, a couple of likely suspects have been killed while "resisting arrest". I'm gonna ignore that in this thread, and see what suspicions we can come up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 5, Writings
"She was alone?" Sleete asked the man in his gravelly voice.

"Yes," the guard said, shaking his head. "Shouldn't have ignored the Amyrlin's advice."

"Who was she?"

"Kateri Nepvue, of the White Ajah. A sister for twenty years."
So, she was raised around the same time that Moiraine and Siuan also became AS. Interesting, that; one might even consider it suspicious. But suspicious of what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 5, Writings
"Why would the Black Ajah need to force a door?" Gawyn asked.

"Maybe they Traveled into the hallway, then walked until they saw light under a doorway," Sleete said.

"Why not then make a gateway to the other side?"

"Channeling could have alerted the woman inside," Sleete said.
Or, another option: gateways were used to get into (and out of) the Tower, but the killings were not done by AS.

Everyone is very much on the lookout for the BA. But how about their Warders?
Those could be running into and out of the Tower, killing at their convenience.

Or the BA could be sending random DFs into and out of the Tower, with "kill and run" orders. Even if one is caught, that wouldn't help the Tower AS at all, would it?

And then there's the alternative, which Gawyn mentions, though he does not take it quite far enough:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 5, Writings
"I don't think this is the work of the Black Ajah," Gawyn said. "I think it might be a Gray Man, or some other kind of assassin. A Darkfriend among the palace staff, perhaps? I mean, look at how the women are killed. Knives."
In the time that Alviarin was Keeper, and the Black was very influential, the Tower Guard was greatly expanded. It seems likely (based on pure statistics) that there are hundreds of DF in that organisation, and possibly significantly more, if a BA member worked on promoting such infiltration.

So Chubain himself is an obvious suspect, as are his officers.
  #2  
Old 11-05-2011, 02:45 PM
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There is also the possibility that the assassins used ter'angreal that allowed them to hide in plain sight, to fulfill their suicide mission of taking down as many Aes Sedai as possible, including the Amyrlin Seat.

But that could just be crazy talk
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  #3  
Old 11-05-2011, 02:53 PM
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What about Slayer?
  #4  
Old 11-05-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
What about Slayer?
I would think that Slayer was extremely busy at the time, having been working for Graendal to try to kill Perrin.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:16 PM
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When I looked now Slayer starts working for Graendal after the murders.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:36 PM
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Just saw the following on
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org

In the notes this is mentioned:
1. A hint to the assassin. Gawyn and Egwene are both wrong. The assassins are the remaining Bloodknives from the Seanchan attack.


Don't know how accurate this is
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
Just saw the following on
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org

In the notes this is mentioned:
1. A hint to the assassin. Gawyn and Egwene are both wrong. The assassins are the remaining Bloodknives from the Seanchan attack.


Don't know how accurate this is
Encyclopaedia has the annoying habit of leaving the main site in the adres bar while you bounce around it's sub-pages. You're gonna have to tell what page you're on...
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post
Encyclopaedia has the annoying habit of leaving the main site in the adres bar while you bounce around it's sub-pages. You're gonna have to tell what page you're on...
that footnote comes from http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tom/ch5.html
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
Now, I know that they've sort of more or less been solved. I'm gonna ignore that in this thread, and see what suspicions we can come up with.
Yay for Theoryland logic.

P.S. The Bloodknives did it, in the Tower, with their knives.
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  #10  
Old 11-05-2011, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Yay for Theoryland logic.

P.S. The Bloodknives did it, in the Tower, with their knives.
Their bloody knives.
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  #11  
Old 11-06-2011, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Yay for Theoryland logic.

P.S. The Bloodknives did it, in the Tower, with their knives.
Yes, the Bloodknives definitely killed some of the victims, but did they kill ALL of them? Were some of the murders commited by anyone other than the Bloodknives?
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Were some of the murders commited by anyone other than the Bloodknives?
Perhaps Occam did it, in Sanderson's house, with his Razor?
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Last edited by AbbeyRoad; 11-06-2011 at 03:18 AM.
  #13  
Old 11-06-2011, 07:55 AM
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Who aside from the bloodknives have the motive to kill Aes Sedai? The Black Ajah have been driven otu so there is no need to protect their identity. Granted its in the Shadow's interest to kill all non dark AS but killing a random AS seems a waste of effort. They would be better served trying to kill the stronger AS or steel their angreal etc. Bumping off random AS seems unlikely.

If there are darkfriends in the Tower guard how free are they to act? Warders come and go througth the tower without any comment but I suspect that the Tower guard are normaly on patrol in groups or at guard stations. Other than that a lone guardsman wandering the Tower on his own might well attract attention. It would be a much better cover to appear a servant.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
Who aside from the bloodknives have the motive to kill Aes Sedai? The Black Ajah have been driven otu so there is no need to protect their identity. ...
Individual BA -- or DF, in general, don't seem to be big on logic. Since the BA has been exposed, and is under automatic sentence of death, there is no reason left for individual BA members vrom exacting revenge for petty slights -- a rash of other murders would both suggest the action and hide the crime.

Nothing ztands out from the random ki;;ings as a revenge killing, but if nobody looks past yhe random pattern for anomalies, anoma;ies will never be found.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
Who aside from the bloodknives have the motive to kill Aes Sedai? The Black Ajah have been driven otu so there is no need to protect their identity. Granted its in the Shadow's interest to kill all non dark AS but killing a random AS seems a waste of effort. They would be better served trying to kill the stronger AS or steel their angreal etc. Bumping off random AS seems unlikely.
But if the killing of random AS had gone on a bit longer, then the divisions in the Tower would have broken open again. That's a good motive, right there.

And as for who apart from bloodknives would have a motive for killing AS?
The flaming Whitecloaks, that's who. Throughout the whole series they've been portrayed as being opposed to the witches. Show them a "secret way into the White Tower" with a few carefully hidden gateways, and you can have them go on a killing spree while remaining a thousand miles from the scene of the crime yourself.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Perhaps Occam did it, in Sanderson's house, with his Razor?
I laughed.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:49 AM
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Just pointing out that the name is a shout-out to a long-time fan/newsgroup contributor, so you might be reading too much into the "sister for 20 years" reference.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
But if the killing of random AS had gone on a bit longer, then the divisions in the Tower would have broken open again. That's a good motive, right there.
Would it? Maybe it would and then again there was not that much division between the Kin and & co when they were being bumped off in Andor. Perhaps it might drive the factions apart or then again it might just inspire them to come together on the theory that they can stand together or fall apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
And as for who apart from bloodknives would have a motive for killing AS?
The flaming Whitecloaks, that's who. Throughout the whole series they've been portrayed as being opposed to the witches. Show them a "secret way into the White Tower" with a few carefully hidden gateways, and you can have them go on a killing spree while remaining a thousand miles from the scene of the crime yourself.
Ok, maybe I've missed something but before the Whitecloaks hooked up with Perrin when did they have access to gateway? I can't see Galad ordering something like that and even if he was willing Perrin might not be too keen to allow the Asha'man to open gateways into Tar Valon even if he is not told why they are wanted.

Before Galad became in charge I could see Neill using assassins, he was a Great Captain and the sort to use every weapon at his disposal, not just a cavalary charge. Unfortunatly he was done in by Valda who was as subtle as an out of control train. One of the reasons he helped kill Neill was that he could not recognise what Neill was doing to advance the cause because it did not involve brute force.

Its not impossible but asking Valda to organise an assassin to slip through security at Tar Valon and get into the White Tower itself after he fired the real Whitecloak spymaster seems as likely as getting bull to walk throught a china shop without breaking anything.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:33 PM
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Of course you don't go to Galad or Valda or someone like that.
Suppose Child Byar had been in Tar Valon, and someone had approached him with the story "I know a way into and out of the Tower". Would he have been willing to knife a couple of AS, if he had a chance like that?
And based on what we've seen of the Whitecloaks, there are quite a lot with attitudes similar to Byar's when it comes to the witches.
Mind, in this scenario, the planning and the gateways would be provided by the BA. But none of them would even have to be in Tar Valon at all. All of it could be done from the other side of the world entirely.

The factions would start getting pulled apart again, if no Green AS were killed, or no Brown, or ...
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:22 PM
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To humor a ridiculous theory...

Who would create the gateways? Lets also not forget that when the killings take place, Asunawa is dead, Valda is dead... every Whitecloack leader excepting Galad and those with him is dead. Well, some presumably remain in Amador, but they're under the control of the Seanchan, who already have more effective assassins in place.

Basically, even if we accept the general premise that some of those murders are unrelated to the Bloodknives or the Black Ajah, its as close to physically impossible for the killer to be a Whitecloack as we're likely to get. Galad won't countenance killing Aes Sedai, even IF the Children had access and the tolerance for channelers of any sort, which they don't as of ToM chronology. Remember that Perrin's storyline is at least several days behind that of the other main characters in the beginning of ToM. Almost criminally so, now that I think about it, because Rand's confrontation with Egwene happens weeks after her assumption of the Seat, which is in an of itself happens days after Rand's disappearance from Tear, which is spurred by seeing Tam... who doesn't leave Perrin until well into ToM.

Post has gone on too long. The point being, it wasn't the Whitecloaks. They don't have the means, nor the motive, nor on a more basic level the expertise necessary. Even with the element of surprise a swordsman would find it almost impossible to kill an Aes Sedai; all the gives the Bloodknives an advantage is they are disguised by the Power.
 


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