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  #241  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:13 PM
nameless nameless is offline
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Maybe they're buying food from the Sharans?
  #242  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:26 PM
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Maybe they are cannibalistic, and they just haven't told any wetlanders yet. "Raiding for sheep" is just a euphemism.
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  #243  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sartho View Post
So is it similar to going into TAR 'in the flesh' in that it's somehow harms the person, or is it just something that's seen as morally wrong and should never be tried?

I know the Wise Ones know what they're talking about, but I was just wondering if it was something that was frowned upon in the distant past, that evolved into being evil. Like how morals change throughout history and societies.

Sorry if this was a long post, but I got a little carried away.
It is "morally wrong". Some things done in the Dream are stronger than done in the waking world. Consider: a person who is capable of pulling someone into TAR generally would know more than the one who gets pulled in. For example: pull in a person, and kill them. In the real world, this person will have simply died in sleep. Compulsion could also be used. I am not sure, but using compulsion in TAR may not leave visible weaves on the person in the waking world.

Even if you pulled someone in, and left them there, TAR is not the safest place for someone who doesn't know it. So I suppose it could be considered harmful as well.
  #244  
Old 06-09-2011, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
I've just written off the size of armies in the WOT as FM. RJ was very good about many things, especially military things, but he completely fornicated the canine on population sizes. The three-fold land could realistically support about 1/100th of the population RJ has in just the warrior societies.
I have always thought RJ patterned the three-fold land off Mongolia but with a more extreme climate. It would not be out of the bounds of reason that large populations could be supported provided there were certain features: plentiful water (albeit hard to find and "plentiful" being a relative term), resilient plants and animals among them breed-able creatures for basic foodstuffs.

Beyond that the Aiel were dispersed and only gathered at Rand's coming. I admit it is a bit of a stretch but rooted in enough possibility so as not to be typical fantasy -impossibility deus ex machina/wtf.
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  #245  
Old 06-09-2011, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa View Post
I have always thought RJ patterned the three-fold land off Mongolia but with a more extreme climate. It would not be out of the bounds of reason that large populations could be supported provided there were certain features: plentiful water (albeit hard to find and "plentiful" being a relative term), resilient plants and animals among them breed-able creatures for basic foodstuffs.

Beyond that the Aiel were dispersed and only gathered at Rand's coming. I admit it is a bit of a stretch but rooted in enough possibility so as not to be typical fantasy -impossibility deus ex machina/wtf.
I live in a desert much milder than the Three-fold land is depicted as being -- home of some of the models for the Aeil, i.e. native americans of the southwest -- and there is no way the population specified in the books can be supported by the area shown on the maps.

It's been a while since I did an actual computation, but IIRC, it worked out the needing to support about 100/sq mi when the climate described couldn't support more than 1 or 2 per sq mile -- and that's a generous estimate; some deserts only support about one person per ten square miles.

RJ was off by at least two and maybe three orders of magnitude; but then he's off about that much for every other nation as well.
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Last edited by Weird Harold; 06-09-2011 at 04:16 PM.
  #246  
Old 06-09-2011, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
It is "morally wrong". Some things done in the Dream are stronger than done in the waking world. Consider: a person who is capable of pulling someone into TAR generally would know more than the one who gets pulled in. For example: pull in a person, and kill them. In the real world, this person will have simply died in sleep. Compulsion could also be used. I am not sure, but using compulsion in TAR may not leave visible weaves on the person in the waking world.

Even if you pulled someone in, and left them there, TAR is not the safest place for someone who doesn't know it. So I suppose it could be considered harmful as well.

This is all true and part of the reason why the wise ones prohibit bringing someone into the dream. But there is one more reason, and that is the fact that even a strong dreamer is at a disadvantage when they are inside someone else's dream.

If you remember one of Egwene's lessons was to go into Ruharc's dream, and because he had more power and control there than she did she got transformed into a little kid, which is how Ruharc saw her. She was also unable to pull herself out of Gawyn's dreams when she got caught there, she was what he dreamt her to be and couldn't get out or change things.

This is why the wise ones say it's evil to pull someone into a dream that is not their's. Because the subject regardless of their strength and skill at dreaming would be at a staggering disadvantage and at the complete mercy of their captor.
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  #247  
Old 06-10-2011, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightning View Post
Because the subject regardless of their strength and skill at dreaming would be at a staggering disadvantage and at the complete mercy of their captor.
But if that's bad, then what is the point of taking captives at all?
You definitely do not want them to be able to fight back.
  #248  
Old 06-10-2011, 08:06 AM
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I've been reading some old threads about ToM in archives and noticed that everybody constantly joking about the fact that all 3 ta'veren has seen Moiraine naked. When exactly did Perrin saw her naked ?
  #249  
Old 06-10-2011, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Xevus View Post
I've been reading some old threads about ToM in archives and noticed that everybody constantly joking about the fact that all 3 ta'veren has seen Moiraine naked. When exactly did Perrin saw her naked ?
In TDR. He walked in her room once without knocking, and she was standing in front of the mirror with her robe hanging on her shoulders, which she then closed nonchalantly. Poor Perrin didn't know what to do.
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  #250  
Old 06-10-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
But if that's bad, then what is the point of taking captives at all?
You definitely do not want them to be able to fight back.
I don't think the wise ones ever thought of their talent for dreaming as a means of restraining or fighting at all. They were wise ones after all, never taking part in any conflict. IMO they viewed deaming as a way to gain wisdom and knowledge that would help them guide their people, and it also happened to be a great tool for communication. To them using it as a tool to over power someone would probably be the same as holding a knife at their throat, except they could not defend themselves from a dream as they might have with a knife.

Either way a wise one does not resort to force or violence (except verbally) and they would have considered it evil for themselves to use the dream as such.
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  #251  
Old 06-11-2011, 09:02 AM
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Something really minor - are Min and Leane the only women in the series who've seen wear makeup?
  #252  
Old 06-11-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Maybe they are cannibalistic, and they just haven't told any wetlanders yet. "Raiding for sheep" is just a euphemism.
Maybe maidens giving up their children is the Aiel A Modest Proposal?
  #253  
Old 06-11-2011, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Something really minor - are Min and Leane the only women in the series who've seen wear makeup?
How do you define makeup?
I would count the Cairhienin officers with their powdered faces too, but others may disagree with that. Seeing as how I have to admit to being a non-expert when it comes to makeup, I'm not sure I would win that argument.
  #254  
Old 06-11-2011, 11:52 AM
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Good question. I meant mostly something like the rouge and eyeshadow which Min and Leane used. Seems a bit weird that unless I've missed something, they are the only two women out of a cast of thousands who have been noted to use such things in the series.
  #255  
Old 06-11-2011, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Good question. I meant mostly something like the rouge and eyeshadow which Min and Leane used. Seems a bit weird that unless I've missed something, they are the only two women out of a cast of thousands who have been noted to use such things in the series.
It might not be that common or widely available outside Arad Doman. The other women rarely mention any beauty products; Nynaeve and Elayne use hand cream in LoC when they're washing dishes, but that was also a gift from Leane.
  #256  
Old 06-11-2011, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
How do you define makeup?
I would count the Cairhienin officers with their powdered faces too, but others may disagree with that. Seeing as how I have to admit to being a non-expert when it comes to makeup, I'm not sure I would win that argument.
Go away and become an expert in make-up. Then come back and answer the question. :-P
  #257  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:15 PM
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Okay, I am doing my first reread and I came across a part in TFoH that has made me curious. In chapter 32 "A Short Spear", it is shown that Avi used a gateway to Travel to the Seanchan lands. The gateway was discovered by damane and sul'dam. Now in the later books, the Seanchan do not know about gateways. Why is that? Shouldn't they have learned from the one Avi created?

The only answer I can come up with myself is that the sul'dam and damane were taken by a Seeker of Truth and put to the question, and likely never seen again. Am I right about this or is there another explanation?
  #258  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mykeyhuffy View Post
Okay, I am doing my first reread and I came across a part in TFoH that has made me curious. In chapter 32 "A Short Spear", it is shown that Avi used a gateway to Travel to the Seanchan lands. The gateway was discovered by damane and sul'dam. Now in the later books, the Seanchan do not know about gateways. Why is that? Shouldn't they have learned from the one Avi created?

The only answer I can come up with myself is that the sul'dam and damane were taken by a Seeker of Truth and put to the question, and likely never seen again. Am I right about this or is there another explanation?
Just because Seanchan in a (presumably extremely northern or southern) part of Seanchan have learned about gateways doesn't mean those thousands of miles away in the Return automatically do as well. I believe you also still need to know the area you're travelling to a little bit as well, though the requirement's not as strict as for from, so that explains why they haven't just travelled over and shown them.
  #259  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:42 PM
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The gateway was somewhat hidden, and most channelers are not able to learn how to do a weave by themselves just from seeing it once.
So those damane and sul'dam saw something they did not understand and could not duplicate.

Top that up with the fact that Rand was also doing some channeling, and they may have detected traces of that (if only in not seeing things where they knew something should be), and the fact that they can't duplicate it is quite understandable.
  #260  
Old 06-11-2011, 06:21 PM
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Asmo rendered the gateway invisible, probably hiding the weaves from the damane.
Reading a weave's residue is a talent and a pretty rare one, so that most likely wasn't a factor.

Last edited by finnssss; 06-11-2011 at 06:25 PM.
 


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