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  #301  
Old 06-17-2011, 05:22 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Elayne can produce perfect copies of some ter'angreals - she made such of the dream ter'angreals which require channelling as early as LoC. In the ToM ebook version there's a mention that she has learned how to make perfect copies of the twisted ring too. The a'dam was the first ter'angreal she worked on, and she could've copied it perfectly too, but had to modify it a bit by removing the leash so Moghedien's identity could remain a secret.

Some damane are able to make a'dam, but IIRC those with such talent are rare and thus live more comfortable than the average damane. But according to Jordan that's the only ter'angreal the damane know how to make, so they aren't as good as Elayne.

Of all the Salidar Aes Sedai, only three others showed any talent for making ter'angreal when Elayne tried to teach them, so it's a pretty rare Talent.
  #302  
Old 06-17-2011, 06:30 AM
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One thing that bugged me about the whole "the Seanchan can only make a'dam" thing, is what about the Bloodknife rings? I mean, sure, they could have a stash, but it seems like recovering them after would present an issue. I suppose one could argue that as a general rule, the rings are returned to the Empress after the revolution fails, and that the Tower raid was "unusual", but I think it's still fishy. Also, bizarre as it may seem, a'dam must not be that complex for ter'angreal, as Elayne's copy was perfect.
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  #303  
Old 06-17-2011, 06:40 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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They can recover the Bloodknife rings which Gawayn has right after they've chopped off his head for being a claimaint to the throne. And that charge is easy to prove, as only an Emperor (or Empress) is allowed control over those rings, so the fact that he is openly wearing them is an obvious plot to become Emperor.
  #304  
Old 06-17-2011, 08:00 AM
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Like I said, that would work for the civil wars in seanchan. They seem too cautious to assume that the Aes Sedai would not recognize ter'angreal and potentially destroy them. And, again, finding them would likely present a problem even in ideal circumstances. Digging through damane made rubble for tiny rings? At least in seanchan the leaders of the rebel factions would be familiar with bloodknives and make an active effort to recover the rings. Tuon could have considered the potential loss of five rings worth the gains, of course.

And if we have learned anything from perrin and the children of the light, proving a man guilty and exacting punishment are two very different things, so even gawyn flaunting the rings may not land him in the seeker's hands.

on the seanchan, do none of them think that maybe artur hawkwing could be considered a thief? i mean, if mat's memories are any guide, he did just conquer places. and even without mat's singular knowledge, other nations obviously existed first.
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  #305  
Old 06-17-2011, 08:04 AM
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another question regarding the bloodknives...
does anyone find it odd that they were all wearing the rings when they were killed? don't they remove them quickly in order to extend their lifespans? of course, maybe they need them to enjoy the benefits, but it seems like someone's power enhanced senses would notice them in the offtime.
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  #306  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:16 AM
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They have to hide in the off-time, and they're very good at it. (Yes, they need to be wearing the ring for it to produce the camouflaging effect and the super-speed.)
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  #307  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
on the seanchan, do none of them think that maybe artur hawkwing could be considered a thief? i mean, if mat's memories are any guide, he did just conquer places. and even without mat's singular knowledge, other nations obviously existed first.
I expect they think Hawkwing's victory legitimised his methods - history is written by the victors, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, etc. His conquests justified themselves. They'll keep trying to reconquer Hawkwing's old empire, dressing their will up as the Wheel's will, until they are decisively defeated or held to a treaty by Rand or whoever, at which point they'll recognise the legitimacy of the "new" kingdoms because that is how history has panned out.

To paraphrase James Clavell's Shogun: "Rebellion against one's lord and master is unforgiveable. Unless you win." Similarly, in a more Medieval outlook on the world, violating another country's sovereignty is unforgiveable unless you manage to go the whole hog and subjugate its people. Then your victory must have been the will of God or the Wheel, or whatever.
  #308  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:58 AM
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Maybe mat can convince Tuon as the man who remembers hawkwing's face that the high king would have wanted peace.

And do you have a quote for that last bit terez? I looked in the books and the interview thing and didn't find anything. I mean, it makes sense, but it seems that warders and Aes Sedai had at least a decent chance of noticing them in the offtime.
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  #309  
Old 06-17-2011, 10:37 AM
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I think that she bases it on this signing report:
Quote:
Question: Is it an assumption that we haven’t seen the last of [the Bloodknives]?
Answer: There were five sent. We know one is dead. The other four, they may have lived or died through the assault, it was pretty chaotic, but they are expert warriors with ter’angreal focused on letting them hide.
Question: How long does that affect last? Days?
Answer: That affect can be stretched if they take it off, for several weeks. It is going to kill them eventually. If they are wearing it straight, it’s not going to last long, a matter of days, but if they take it off they can hide for a matter of weeks. So, there are four unaccounted for, who have orders to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can.
Oh, and Tuon may get some difficult moral considerations to ponder when she finds out that Rand is now also Lews Therin, the man who was the formal leader of all forces of the Light. Everyone who served the Light was nominally subordinate to him, so he would outrank even Hawkwing himself. As was actually shown during the Falme episode.

Last edited by GonzoTheGreat; 06-17-2011 at 10:40 AM.
  #310  
Old 06-17-2011, 04:35 PM
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I don't know about the last bit...for one thing rand doesn't really seem to want to rule. And Tuon does. And she has already put the dragon on par with her pre-empress self.

For the quote, yeah, I saw that. I figured as you all did. I still think warders and Aes Sedai w/saidar should stand a reasonably high chance of noticing them in the downtime though. But I guess their lack of noticing was to allow gawyns showdown
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  #311  
Old 06-17-2011, 05:10 PM
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And the AS were all very vigorously not any longer hiding furtively in the shadows, so they all had very good reason not to peek into too many unused nooks and crannies.
On top of that, those AS who had some idea of what was going on were all searching for Mesaana, so they had no reason at all to pay any attention to black clad men who dodged away when noticed.

I do wonder how many of the serving people in the Tower got killed during the hiding time, and whether or not any AS will ever bother to pay attention to that. Frankly, it seems far more likely that a chambermaid or someone like that would have stumbled across those Bloodknives rather than an AS and Warder pair.
  #312  
Old 06-17-2011, 07:11 PM
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Gawyn heard the first one, and he is without Warder powers. And the constantly alert nature of warders would have at least made them pay some attention. After gawyns first encounter, everyone knew a non channeler assassin was at least around. Nynaeve comments on the distrustful nature of the Aes Sedai when she arrives. And the point about the servants plays too, if any were killed, someone would notice them missing. I suppose that they could masquerade as servants, but there are still holes with that.
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  #313  
Old 06-17-2011, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Gawyn heard the first one, and he is without Warder powers. And the constantly alert nature of warders would have at least made them pay some attention. After gawyns first encounter, everyone knew a non channeler assassin was at least around. Nynaeve comments on the distrustful nature of the Aes Sedai when she arrives. And the point about the servants plays too, if any were killed, someone would notice them missing. I suppose that they could masquerade as servants, but there are still holes with that.
Gawyn didn't hear anything, he sensed something amiss in not being able to focus on a shadow. What he heard, was the knife being taken out and thrown at him.
  #314  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
A sound made him hesitate, glancing over his shoulder. Footfalls and clothing rustling. It was too late for novices, but servants might well be delivering late meals. Bryne and Gawyn weren’t the only ones who kept unusual hours in the White Tower.It came again. So soft, barely audible. Frowning, Gawyn slipped off his boots, then sneaked forward to glance around the corner.
From ToM, the scene in question.

Seems he did hear something after all.
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  #315  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:10 AM
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Well, it was night, Eggy has left her room unguarded and so it was easily for Gawyn to hear a noise.

The Bloodknives make one fast and almost invisible, but don't make one quiet. If the wearer makes a noise he/she can be heard.
  #316  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:30 AM
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Okay folks, start a new thread or move on.
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  #317  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
From ToM, the scene in question.

Seems he did hear something after all.
Good call, fair enough.
  #318  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:04 PM
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Okay folks, start a new thread or move on.
  • Do Dolphins know who the true Dragon is?
  • Have they met the Dragon already, in the ocean?


What's your take Terez?
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  #319  
Old 06-19-2011, 08:04 PM
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Lmao. A post better designed to irritate people other than a suggestion that perhaps there might be a small flaw with a theory, I cannot imagine.

And isn't madame curie the mistress of quotes and terez of resources?
Ps. You can be the lord of chaos, in service to the lord dragon ringmaster.
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Last edited by The Unreasoner; 06-19-2011 at 11:03 PM.
  #320  
Old 06-20-2011, 06:41 AM
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I suppose I'm what you'd call a "noob" - I've only read the series once, and I'm on my second read-through now - so here are my tests of the "no dumb questions" rule:

1) In TSR (Rumors), a Fade calls Mat "Hornsounder." In TGH (The Grave is No Bar to My Call) Ishamael doesn't seem to have this information (he assumes Rand had blown the Horn). From what I can tell, the Fade who identifies Mat was part of a contingent sent by Sammael, who must therefore - by TSR - know who blew the Horn. My question is: what did the Shadow know and when?

2) Ishamael mentions several times, if I recall, his belief that Rand - or his soul - has served the Dark One at various turnings of the Wheel. Is this possibly correct? I can imagine scenarios where Rand (or his soul) somehow fails in his mission (or at least fails to achieve complete success, as in the case of Lews Therin), but how would his decision to actually serve the Dark One affect the Pattern?

3) Have Perrin and/or Mat ever been spun out by the Wheel before? In the scene in TGH where the Heroes of the Horn arrive, I can't exactly tell if they recognize those two.

In contrast, they certainly recognize Rand (and, strangely, they call him Lews Therin - is that his "Horn" name? Why wouldn't it be "Rand," or something else?). They don't seem to have the same familiarity with Perrin or Mat; on the other hand, they do give them names that seem to be symbolic (e.g. "Bannerman"). What's going on here?

Last edited by Hugoye; 06-20-2011 at 06:52 AM.
 


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