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  #321  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:55 AM
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1) I would say that Lanfear at least observed the whole thing. Other Forsaken may have been watching from the shadows too, but on the other hand: they may not have known where Rand was going and when he would get there. Lanfear at least had been keeping track of him all the time, and she arrived on the scene so quickly once it was over that she assumption she watched it all is the most reasonable.

3) I think that the Heroes were following the "do not give away any more than absolutely necessary" rule. They had to acknowledge the Dragon, because of the situation they were in, but anything else was still covered by the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. So they may or may not have recognised them, but they would not say anything about it either way.
Still, I do think that they did recognise Mat and Perrin as spun out Heroes. One of the reasons is that they admitted that Hurin was not (yet) a Hero.
  #322  
Old 06-20-2011, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
2) Ishamael mentions several times, if I recall, his belief that Rand - or his soul - has served the Dark One at various turnings of the Wheel. Is this possibly correct? I can imagine scenarios where Rand (or his soul) somehow fails in his mission (or at least fails to achieve complete success, as in the case of Lews Therin), but how would his decision to actually serve the Dark One affect the Pattern?
RJ commented on this. Yes, the Dragon soul has gone over in the past, but apparently this only happens when the circumstances are not favorable to the Dark One's ultimate goal (which is supposedly to destroy the Pattern). RJ said there are 'degrees of victory', and that all of these past 'victories' for the Shadow have actually been draws.

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  #323  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
RJ commented on this. Yes, the Dragon soul has gone over in the past, but apparently this only happens when the circumstances are not favorable to the Dark One's ultimate goal (which is supposedly to destroy the Pattern). RJ said there are 'degrees of victory', and that all of these past 'victories' for the Shadow have actually been draws.

Also, welcome to Theoryland.
I think it is worth pointing out that such a "draw" would still be bloody horrible from the point of view of Joe Average Randlander, though.
  #324  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:53 AM
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I'm guessing that when the Dragon soul is turned that, after various lengths of terror and mayhem, someone kills him and then maybe resurrects him to finish the job. Paitar's prophecy seemed to indicate that their responsibility was to kill him if he turned on Dragonmount, as if the alternative was much worse.
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  #325  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:50 PM
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I don't think that is necessarily the case. As prophecy cannot explain the dark one's victory, paitar's prophecy seemed like a way to extend the lifetime of the pattern. If rand was dark, and paitar failed to kill him, the world would have likely ended before TG. If he succeeded, it would be after. So it really was kind of a silly prophecy. If rand went to far madding before dragonmount, he would have lacked the memories, and two things could have happened:
1 paitar kills rand, world ends at TG
2 rand kills all of the borderlanders with TP balefire, shows up to dragonmount darker than ever, ends the world then.

It's like a prophecy on giving life support to the world, after testing the need.
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  #326  
Old 06-20-2011, 06:01 PM
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It is possible for the Shadow to achieve total victory after taking the Dragon out of play, but it's far from guaranteed. This is why Ishy/Moridin is so adamant that no one try to kill Rand. The easiest way for the Shadow to win is to turn the Dragon. Killing him outright changes the struggle into a war of attrition in which Darkfriends and Lightfriends battle each other for resources while one side tries to repair the Seal and the other side tries to widen the Bore.
  #327  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:00 PM
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I think we are on the same page there, nameless. My point was that paitar would never get the chance to kill rand if he "turned on dragonmount".
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  #328  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
I think we are on the same page there, nameless. My point was that paitar would never get the chance to kill rand if he "turned on dragonmount".
Its more reasonable to accept that Paitar would have killed him had he not been reintegrated at the time of the meeting...thus, it was crucial that Rand be reintegrated to win the Last Battle and it would have been better for him to die rather than fight the Last Battle in his dark state.
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  #329  
Old 06-20-2011, 09:31 PM
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That is true too. My point was that in order to meet paitar pre integration, he had to meet him before he even had the opportunity. If he met him after, he would always have fulfilled the prophecy, as if rand failed in reintegration at the opportunity, he would have destroyed the world.
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  #330  
Old 06-21-2011, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
My question is: what did the Shadow know and when?
You have to realize that for most of the series, there was no "Shadow" to know anything. There were anywhere from 13 to 1300 separate "Shadow" organizations and very few of them shared information with any of the others except under duress. In part that is because Darkfriends were organized in "cellular" organizations like the BA for most of the Third Age and partly because Ishamael/Ba'alzamon was so crazy before Rand finally killed him he didn't even tell himself what he was up to and who he had doing what.

It really isn't until after Shadar Haran visits Mesaana and Greandal that Moridin finally forces a somewhat coherent "Shadow" that your question could be asked of. Even then, the surviving Forsaken try to keep secrets and plot to their own advantage so there are things than one Forsaken or a group of Darkfriends might know that the "Shadow," as a singular opposition to the Light, does not know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
... but how would his decision to actually serve the Dark One affect the Pattern?
The Pattern is NOT a servant of the Light; as loong as there is Balance in the Wheel, the Wheel and Pattern will weave merrily along, impervious to any suffering mankind might be subjected to. The mirror world Rand, Loial and "Selene" visited is one example of what a "lesser victory" might look like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
3) Have Perrin and/or Mat ever been spun out by the Wheel before?
In theory, EVERY character has a soul that has been spun out into a past life. So, yes Mat and Perrin have been spun out before.

The real intent of your question is whether they are Heroes of the Horn incarnate, as Rand clearly is. The answer to that is probably "Yes."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugoye View Post
... they certainly recognize Rand (and, strangely, they call him Lews Therin - is that his "Horn" name? ...
Heros of the Horn are apparently known by the name of their last incarnation. Hawkwing addressing Rand as LTT indicates that Rand probably has not been incarnate since the creation of Dragonmount. The failure to address Mat and Perrin by a given name suggests that their last incarnations weren't terribly well known as individuals but were known by the positions they filled. Much as everyone knows that there dozens of Knights of the Round Table, but very few can name more than two or three.
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  #331  
Old 06-21-2011, 06:32 AM
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Can someone start a poll on whether or not people like Rand?
Something like:
Favorite char/top five/top half (slightly favorable)/bottom half/bottom five/least favorite char
Reasons can be in the posts (likability, believability, interest level, personality...)
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  #332  
Old 06-21-2011, 05:40 PM
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Was slayer sent to retrieve Lanfear? At first I assumed it was Moridin, but slayer appears to go inside, and might enjoy "hunting" Finn. Entering from tar might give him an edge, though birgitte claimed it is harder it may not be the case for him. And he cannot channel, so the Finn would want him less than moridin. The only thing is I think Moiraine would recognize isam enough to remember him, and luc as well.
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  #333  
Old 06-21-2011, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Was slayer sent to retrieve Lanfear? At first I assumed it was Moridin, but slayer appears to go inside, and might enjoy "hunting" Finn. Entering from tar might give him an edge, though birgitte claimed it is harder it may not be the case for him. And he cannot channel, so the Finn would want him less than moridin. The only thing is I think Moiraine would recognize isam enough to remember him, and luc as well.
Doubtful it was Slayer. Despite what Birgitte believed, I believe RJ later stated that it wasn't possible to enter ToG from TAR. (Searching for quote)
Perhaps Slayer emerged in the real world and then entered the Tower but what would the point have been at that time?
Mo and Lanfear weren't even there yet (Happened near the end of book 5) when Slayer appeared to enter much earlier(Book 4).

The real clue imo, is that Mat found the the second stone doorway as a pile of rubble. I find it highly doubtful that destroying the Doorway in this way is something Slayer is capable of.
It stinks of Moridin and the True power to me.
But hey, it could of been Demandred or maybe even Taim for all we know at this point but Moridin seems to fit the most imo.

Last edited by finnssss; 06-21-2011 at 10:10 PM.
  #334  
Old 06-21-2011, 10:08 PM
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I forgot about the timing. And I was selectively blind to the broken doorway, although didn't birgitte claim that it was impossible to get anywhere useful that way?

In any case, the timing point kills it in the water, unless he was training in there for some bizarre reason. Good call.
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  #335  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by finnssss View Post
The real clue imo, is that Mat found the the second stone doorway as a pile of rubble. I find it highly doubtful that destroying the Doorway in this way is something Slayer is capable of.
The destruction of the second doorway doesn't prove anything one way or another. It is possible that the two doorways were linked and the destruction of one cause the destructionof the other. Granted one melted and the other crumbled, but that might be the difference between primary causes and secondary effects

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Originally Posted by finnssss View Post
It stinks of Moridin and the True power to me.

But hey, it could of been Demandred or maybe even Taim for all we know at this point but Moridin seems to fit the most imo.
Moridin does seem to fit best since the next time we see Lanfear, she's renamed and Moridin is wearing a mindtrap attributed to control of "Cyndane." There's no other example of Slayer being sent to take someone captive to suggest that is one of his functions either.

However, If Slayer did enter the ToG whenPerrin chased him in T'A'R, he clearly has the ability to come and go from the *finn realm at will and therefore could have been sent as Moridin's emissary if the second doorway was a casualty of the destruction of the Rhuidean doorway.

The general consensus that Moridin retrieved Lanfear and then destroyed the Tear Doorway to trap Moiraine forever is the most likely scenario, but Slayer can't be completely ruled out.
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  #336  
Old 06-22-2011, 12:58 AM
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Well that is reassuring.
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  #337  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:00 AM
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Edited: Withdrawn. Found an answer.
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Last edited by Lapine Imperator; 06-23-2011 at 06:54 AM.
  #338  
Old 06-23-2011, 10:38 AM
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If Bela got into a cage fight with Narg, who would win?
  #339  
Old 06-23-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by finnssss View Post
The real clue imo, is that Mat found the the second stone doorway as a pile of rubble. I find it highly doubtful that destroying the Doorway in this way is something Slayer is capable of.
It stinks of Moridin and the True power to me.
But hey, it could of been Demandred or maybe even Taim for all we know at this point but Moridin seems to fit the most imo.
RE: The original destruction of the Eelfinn doorway on a cart near Cairhien:

Quote:
Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

RJ: "When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal, it burned in part because both were channeling, and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. The odd optical effects witnessed in that other world are not artificially produced artifacts."
I'm working on a theory of what happened to the Aelfinn doorway (the one that was in the Stone of Tear until it was destroyed), but the entire theory hinges on the following question:

Did Rand himself leave wards on the great hold of Tear (where all the ter'angreal - including the doorway - were kept)?

I'd love to share the details of this theory, but I haven't reached this point in my current re-read, and it's imperative to know the answer to this question before going further with the idea.
  #340  
Old 06-23-2011, 05:12 PM
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If Bela got into a cage fight with Narg, who would win?
Narg, because horses can't throw cages.
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