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  #381  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:29 AM
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Default Names, Names, Names

Quote:
Originally Posted by looqas View Post
Q: in the Age of Legends there is talk about the coveted third name. Which one is it in for example Lews Therin Telamon? I always assumed it was the middle one, but now I'm not sure.
Can you given a text quotation, mentioning the coveted third name?


Individual's in Seanchan Empire's Imperial House, are known for gaining three names:
  • Birth Name -- Unknown, as it would be rude to speak.
  • Adult Name -- Daughter of Nine Moons, Tuon
  • Higher Status Adult Name -- Empress, Fortuona
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  #382  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by looqas View Post
Q: in the Age of Legends there is talk about the coveted third name. Which one is it in for example Lews Therin Telamon? I always assumed it was the middle one, but now I'm not sure.
I always assumed it was telamon, but I am not sure either.
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  #383  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looqas View Post
Q: in the Age of Legends there is talk about the coveted third name. Which one is it in for example Lews Therin Telamon? I always assumed it was the middle one, but now I'm not sure.
The BWB makes clear that it is the third name that can be earned, so in his case, the, seemingly, clear implication is that it should be the third in the progression, thus Lews Therin was the name he was born with, and Telamon was the name that he earned.

Think of it like the Roman tria nomina - praenomen, nomen, cognomen.
  #384  
Old 06-30-2011, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Can you given a text quotation, mentioning the coveted third name?
Here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB
Chapter 5
The Dark One and the Male Forsaken
BALTHAMEL

Balthamel, born Eval Ramman, was a historian specializing in the study of vanished cultures. Though quite strong in the Power, he was unable to distinguish himself enough to earn the coveted third name. Some sources suggest that the quality of his work was not the only reason he lacked status. He was said to have a wildfire temper that he often could not control. More than once he supposedly came very close to being bound with the Power against doing violence.
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  #385  
Old 06-30-2011, 03:10 AM
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This seems to imply that the third name might name the accomplishment. Like aficanus for scipio.

And Felix, were you asking so that we would answer our own question? Or is their something more to learn from the third name concept?
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  #386  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:22 AM
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Question. Who was the skinny Aes Sedai Mat first talked to when he rode into Salidar?
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  #387  
Old 06-30-2011, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice View Post
Question. Who was the skinny Aes Sedai Mat first talked to when he rode into Salidar?
I agree with the Encylopedai WOT's footnote on her:

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  #388  
Old 06-30-2011, 07:26 AM
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Thanks Harold for the quote. It was exactly what spurred the question.

I have a faint rerembrance that Ishy says "I win again Lews Therin." One circumstantial evidence for the 3rd name to be indeed Telamon. But maybe I recall it wrong or was from the wotcats thread

Does anyone know what Telamon means? It would make an excellent question to pose to Team Jordan.
  #389  
Old 06-30-2011, 07:57 AM
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Default What's in a name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by looqas View Post
Thanks Harold for the quote. It was exactly what spurred the question.

I have a faint rerembrance that Ishy says "I win again Lews Therin." One circumstantial evidence for the 3rd name to be indeed Telamon. But maybe I recall it wrong or was from the wotcats thread

Does anyone know what Telamon means? It would make an excellent question to pose to Team Jordan.
What is a coveted third name?

  • An current name, with attached marker of status?
  • A totally new given name, signifying a higher status, honor, fame?


A progression of Tuon's second name to her third name, suggests a totally new given name.


2nd name: Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag
3rd name: Fortuona Athaem Devi Paendrag


Quote:
Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgetten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

Fortuona was empress.

Fortuona Athaem Devi Paendrag kissed the soldier lightly on the forehead as he knelt, head bowed, on the short grass.


The Gathering Storm, Chapter 36 "The Death of Tuon" -- Tuon, err Fortuona point of view.

Question is did the prior Age use a similar name design or not, to that of the Seanchan Empire's Imperial House?

Are the current Seanchan Empire naming customs, a hybrid compromise of Hawkwing's Westlands roots and Seanchan? Or a domination of one over the other?

It's just odd to to me, that all but the Paendrag family was dropped; in going from Tuon to Fortuona. Reason to keep the Paendrag name is it's tie to the Seanchan founder?
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  #390  
Old 06-30-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by looqas View Post
Does anyone know what Telamon means? It would make an excellent question to pose to Team Jordan.
It might actually mean "The Dragon" or "Dragon". In the Old Tongue, Dragon is "Aman" which is near as dammit to "amon", the second syllable of "Telamon". There were some variations in spelling in the AOL which implied status or different meanings, for example "moridin" means grave whilst "Moridin" means death itself; "avron" means watcher, while "mavron" has the same meaning but with a raised status; it is not inconceivable that "amon" could have the same meaning as "aman" but with added status.

"Tel", the first part of the name, is found elsewhere only as part of "tel'aran'rhiod", which translates as "the world of dreams" or "the unseen world". We don't know which part has which meaning, but we do know that "al" means "the" or "of the" and "a" means "of", neither of which appear in the phrase "tel'aran'rhiod". If "amon" has a similar meaning to "aman" however, "tel" might denote "the" or "of the" with increased status, the way we pronounce "the" with a long "e" when trying to describe something more important (i.e. it's not just a world of dreams, it's thee world of dreams).

People in the AOL obviously knew what a dragon was, and when naming their military commander "dragon" would no doubt have wanted to accord additional status. I suggest that this explains the spelling differentials between other instances of the words in the Old Tongue, and Telamon actually literally means "The Dragon", thus "Lews Therin The Dragon".
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  #391  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It might actually mean "The Dragon" or "Dragon". In the Old Tongue, Dragon is "Aman" which is near as dammit to "amon", the second syllable of "Telamon". There were some variations in spelling in the AOL which implied status or different meanings, for example "moridin" means grave whilst "Moridin" means death itself; "avron" means watcher, while "mavron" has the same meaning but with a raised status; it is not inconceivable that "amon" could have the same meaning as "aman" but with added status.

"Tel", the first part of the name, is found elsewhere only as part of "tel'aran'rhiod", which translates as "the world of dreams" or "the unseen world". We don't know which part has which meaning, but we do know that "al" means "the" or "of the" and "a" means "of", neither of which appear in the phrase "tel'aran'rhiod". If "amon" has a similar meaning to "aman" however, "tel" might denote "the" or "of the" with increased status, the way we pronounce "the" with a long "e" when trying to describe something more important (i.e. it's not just a world of dreams, it's thee world of dreams).

People in the AOL obviously knew what a dragon was, and when naming their military commander "dragon" would no doubt have wanted to accord additional status. I suggest that this explains the spelling differentials between other instances of the words in the Old Tongue, and Telamon actually literally means "The Dragon", thus "Lews Therin The Dragon".
It might just be a coincidence, but Telamon was also the name of a Greek mythological hero. Not one of the most famous, but he was involved in two of the famous events prior to the Trojan War - the Calydonian Boar Hunt and the Argonautica. He was also the brother of Peleus, thus making him the uncle of Achilles. His own son was the second greatest of the Greek heroes at Troy, Ajax. And like the names of most Greek heroes, it has a literal meaning - a baldric. Mind you trying to explain how or why Lews Therin's third name would mean that would be a bit of a stretch.
  #392  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It might actually mean "The Dragon" or "Dragon". In the Old Tongue, Dragon is "Aman" which is near as dammit to "amon", the second syllable of "Telamon". There were some variations in spelling in the AOL which implied status or different meanings, for example "moridin" means grave whilst "Moridin" means death itself; "avron" means watcher, while "mavron" has the same meaning but with a raised status; it is not inconceivable that "amon" could have the same meaning as "aman" but with added status.

"Tel", the first part of the name, is found elsewhere only as part of "tel'aran'rhiod", which translates as "the world of dreams" or "the unseen world". We don't know which part has which meaning, but we do know that "al" means "the" or "of the" and "a" means "of", neither of which appear in the phrase "tel'aran'rhiod". If "amon" has a similar meaning to "aman" however, "tel" might denote "the" or "of the" with increased status, the way we pronounce "the" with a long "e" when trying to describe something more important (i.e. it's not just a world of dreams, it's thee world of dreams).

People in the AOL obviously knew what a dragon was, and when naming their military commander "dragon" would no doubt have wanted to accord additional status. I suggest that this explains the spelling differentials between other instances of the words in the Old Tongue, and Telamon actually literally means "The Dragon", thus "Lews Therin The Dragon".
You left one out, Tel is also your first name
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  #393  
Old 06-30-2011, 12:22 PM
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Dragon is probably "aman", considering the "spears of the Dragon", the "siswai'aman".

The "amon" of course also appears in Ba'alzamon, though it may be that that is coincidence.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:38 PM
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Ba'alzamon is a Trolloc word, though, and we don't know if their language is related at all to Old Tongue.
  #395  
Old 06-30-2011, 02:48 PM
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Ba'alzamon is a Trolloc word, though, and we don't know if their language is related at all to Old Tongue.
Since Trollocs were created during the time that the Old Tongue was spoken, I do not think it a stretch to say that their language is an offshoot of that language. Since Trolloc's come in all different shapes (snouts, beaks, etc) it would need to be simplified/changed. But still based on the Old Tongue.
  #396  
Old 06-30-2011, 03:03 PM
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You left one out, Tel is also your first name
I don't get it, sorry.

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Dragon is probably "aman", considering the "spears of the Dragon", the "siswai'aman".

The "amon" of course also appears in Ba'alzamon, though it may be that that is coincidence.
I did discuss this - I'm suggesting the alternate spelling is similar to the capital "m" for the two different meanings of "moridin", perhaps modifying it into a proper name rather than an ordinary noun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
Since Trollocs were created during the time that the Old Tongue was spoken, I do not think it a stretch to say that their language is an offshoot of that language. Since Trolloc's come in all different shapes (snouts, beaks, etc) it would need to be simplified/changed. But still based on the Old Tongue.
The Trolloc tongue was probably developed by the Myrdraal, since Trollocs prior to Myrdraal were mindless beasts and completely uncontrollable, especially given the differences in their facial and vocal capacities. In fact, it seems likely that some Trollocs just can't talk at all. Whether it was developed by Myrdraal in isolation or if Aginor raised some for study and taught them to speal is anyone's guess. Most Myrdraal do speak the New Tongue, though.

Alternate theory: if "Ba'alzamon" means "heart of the dark" in Trolloc, we can break that down somewhat. "Al" means "of the" in Old. It's unlikely that someone like Lews Therin would have "dark" in his name, even before the bore, since the word apparently had negative connotations before it was released, so we can dismiss that as a meaning for "amon" and assume it means heart - therefore "ba" means dark and we can discard the "z" as a difference between Trolloc and Old. Therefore "Telamon" means [unknown]heart. "Tel" appears elsewhere in "tel'aran'rhiod" which we know means either the World of Dreams or the Unseen World. Both "unseen heart" and "dream heart" seem like unlikely names for Lews Therin to be given, so perhaps his name means "World-Heart". This chimes rather nicely with the importance of the Dragon in the books, and with Rand and Lews' shared ability to sense the proximity of people.

Perhaps someone with mod power should move this to its own thread, btw.
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  #397  
Old 06-30-2011, 03:32 PM
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I don't get it, sorry.
Tel. Janin. Aellinsar.
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  #398  
Old 06-30-2011, 03:38 PM
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Tel amon as 'the dragon' works for me, but wouldn't this mean that he was called the dragon before the Bore?
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:00 PM
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I agree with the Encylopedai WOT's footnote on her:
Thanks.
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:25 PM
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Tel amon as 'the dragon' works for me, but wouldn't this mean that he was called the dragon before the Bore?
That would make more sense if the name was tel'amon rather than telamon, since the former would imply a combination of two words, while the latter implies just one word. Either way, assuming based on tel'aran'rhiod that "tel" = "the" seems faulty. Take for example the two translations of the phrase given by Moiraine - "the world of dreams" & "the unseen world". So, part of the whole phrase obviously is a word meaning world, but that word could be any of the three components, not necessarily the last of the three, and none of the three need mean "the". Keep in mind, some languages have no definite nor indefinite articles. Latin is the most obvious example of such a language. Either way, that leaves us with a serious problem when it comes to translating the components without other cross references. If one of the three components means world, how can the other two produce either "of dreams" or "unseen"? The same word, or group of words must carry both meanings, but either way it means that none of the three components could mean "of" since the preposition was only used in one of her two translations, and wouldn't make sense in the other. Or, two of the words could combine to mean world, just as the Latin phrase "orbis terrarum" means world, though could also be translated as orb of lands. One might have wished that she translated the phrase as "unseen world" or "dream world".

Think of it this way. Say you have two phrases - "onerous" and "one way street". Does the "one" in "one way street" in any way help you in understanding the meaning of "onerous"?
 


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