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  #401  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:50 PM
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Red face

'it works for me'= I find it, and the previous arguments supporting it, plausible and valid. Aside from your points against, I also felt that the timing is off.

I don't have any good guess on the meaning though, so I ignored the issues with timing and the obvious problems in translating a language which, in all likelihood, is defined only as far as it has been seen in the books.
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  #402  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:50 PM
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This isn't meant to be a "gotcha" moment for RJ, but I'm wondering if Ishmael Healing LTT's madness in the prologue to EOTW has been discussed. I am referring to two specific points.

1. I assume that Ishmael uses the True Power to Heal the madness. Is this confirmed?

2. Ishmael also refers to how the remaining Aes Sedai could only give LTT a few moments of lucidity before relapsing into madness. To me, this implies that Healing madness is not as impossible as once believed, only temporary and very difficult. Has this ever been discussed on the forums?

The reason I'm asking is because Nynaeve Healed madness in Towers of Midnight and it was a big deal. I'm just surprised that Healing madness was somewhat of a viable option right after the Tainting occurred and no one seems to remember it.
  #403  
Old 06-30-2011, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
This isn't meant to be a "gotcha" moment for RJ, but I'm wondering if Ishmael Healing LTT's madness in the prologue to EOTW has been discussed. I am referring to two specific points.

1. I assume that Ishmael uses the True Power to Heal the madness. Is this confirmed?

2. Ishmael also refers to how the remaining Aes Sedai could only give LTT a few moments of lucidity before relapsing into madness. To me, this implies that Healing madness is not as impossible as once believed, only temporary and very difficult. Has this ever been discussed on the forums?

The reason I'm asking is because Nynaeve Healed madness in Towers of Midnight and it was a big deal. I'm just surprised that Healing madness was somewhat of a viable option right after the Tainting occurred and no one seems to remember it.
Well we do know that in the AoL there were channelers who treated forms of madness - Graendal. She obviously wouldn't have been available to try to treat saidin madness, but others might have, perhaps even successfully, in the early days before most knowledge was lost, but determined that since it was just a temporary fix, that a more permanent solution was preferable - severing. The reason it would have been temporary, is that it would have to be administered repeatedly, as each use of saidin would have reopened oneself to the madness until saidin was cleansed.
  #404  
Old 06-30-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
1. I assume that Ishmael uses the True Power to Heal the madness. Is this confirmed?
The description RJ used to describe this "healing" event (note, by the way, that when Elan Morin describes the Sisters' brand of Healing, he uses the capital "H", but when he says "Be healed, Lews Therin!" he definitely does not) strongly implies that it was the True Power being used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Eye of the World
PROLOGUE: Dragonmount

Tossing back his cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.
I had a thought that I've been wanting to bring up for discussion for some time now and now's as good a time as any.

Since the Dark One stands for destruction and chaos, etc, as the opposing force to that of all things orderly and creative, the "healing" Elan Morin spoke of here must also be that of destructive forces. I propose that what Elan Morin did here was remove every "tainted" cell in LT's body. This would explain the pain that wracked his body to the point of collapse, his physical weakness immediately thereafter, and his seeming clarity of mind. I say "seeming" here, because he didn't remember what had happened until Elan Morin reminded him; he'd initially thought Elan Morin was responsible for Ilyena's death. Anyway, this "healing" would have left gaping holes in LT's muscular and, presumably, skeletal structure as well as in his brain (the places where the "thorns" that Nynaeve has seen in modern-day Randland as a result of the taint-madness had occupied in LT's brain) that had previously been causing the effects of "madness" that LT was experiencing.

This is all conjecture, of course. I'd like to hear thoughts on these ideas...
  #405  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:32 PM
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Okay, I have another question.

When Elayne was studying that heat rod thing and blacked out, what happened that she doesn't remember and that none of the other people are willing to talk about?
  #406  
Old 06-30-2011, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
Okay, I have another question.

When Elayne was studying that heat rod thing and blacked out, what happened that she doesn't remember and that none of the other people are willing to talk about?
It isn't ever stated explicitly, Elayne broadcast a dream, and probably an erotic dream:

Quote:
Red Rod

A ter'angreal in the form of a wrist-thick red rod about a foot long. It feels firm rather than hard and feels even warmer than ter'angreal normally do. The red rod is activated by Fire. It creates visual and aural illusions, but if the user is unwary it may put her to sleep and broadcast her fantasies and dreams.
A much later comment by Birgitte in Winter's Heart after Elayne, Aviendha, and Min bonded Rand suggests that Elayne's broadcast dream may have had something to do with danccing naked on a tavern's table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart
Chapter 12
A Lilly in Winter
"Oosquai!" Aviendha voice rose desperately, and she was actually wringing her hands! "I know where there is oosquai! If you are drunk . . . '. Please, Birgitte! I ... I will pledge myself to obey you, as apprentice to mistress, but please do not interrupt her! Do not shame her so!"

"Oosquai?" Birgitte mused, rubbing her jaw. "Is that anything like brandy? Hmm. I think the girl is blushing! She really is prim most of the time, you know. A joke, you said?" Suddenly she grinned, and spread her arms expansively. "Lead me to this oosquai of yours, Aviendha. I don't know about you two, but I intend to get drunk enough to ... well ... to take off my clothes and dance on the table. And not a hair drunker."

Min did not understand that at all, or why Aviendha stared at Birgitte and suddenly began laughing about it being "a wonderful joke," but she was sure she knew why Elayne was blushing, if she actually was. That hard ball of sensations in her head was a raging wildfire again.

"Could we go find that oosquai, now?" she said. "I want to get drunk as a drowned mouse, and fast!"
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  #407  
Old 06-30-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
Red Rod

A ter'angreal in the form of a wrist-thick red rod about a foot long. It feels firm rather than hard and feels even warmer than ter'angreal normally do. The red rod is activated by Fire. It creates visual and aural illusions, but if the user is unwary it may put her to sleep and broadcast her fantasies and dreams.
EWoT cites the RPG for this info, which means RJ probably had little or nothing to do with the info. As they say:

Quote:
The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game by Wizards of the Coast was written by others. Robert Jordan was a consultant though, unfortunately, the level of his input tended to be, "No, you cannot have ninjas and clerics in my world." It contains extensive information on the world of the Wheel of Time and some of its characters. Where there is new information that, in some way, is corroborated by the chronology it is cited in the Encyclopaedia WoT. Most of the information falls in the category of background and history of the countries and cultures of the Wheel of Time. There are also some improved maps.
I don't know why they would count it as canon just because it 'is corroborated by the chronology'.
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  #408  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:18 PM
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I have always wanted to know about the Snakes and Foxes concerning the rules of their world and how effective the OP or TP would be against them. When Lanfear was presumably rescued by Moridin it seemed he exercised no real fear of the realm. Perhaps his AoL knowledge as well as ties to the DO protected him but it always seemed like that was a bit too convenient.
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  #409  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
People in the AOL obviously knew what a dragon was, and when naming their military commander "dragon" would no doubt have wanted to accord additional status. I suggest that this explains the spelling differentials between other instances of the words in the Old Tongue, and Telamon actually literally means "The Dragon", thus "Lews Therin The Dragon".
It isn't at all clear that people in the AOL knew what a dragon was. Per RJ, Lews Therin Telamon was given the name "Dragon" first, and only later was the creature on his banner connected with that name. RJ also said that there were no dragons in Randland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Netherlands tour, Dromen and Demonen chat - 6 April 2001

Lowlander: Are there any dragons (like real dragons (=animals)) in Rand's world? If not where did they get the idea of dragons?

RJ: There are no animal dragons of any kind in this world. The people speak of a man called the Dragon. They know that the banner that has a certain creature on it was the banner of this man and they have taken to calling this creature the dragon. To them it is a simple association with the name of this man.

Also, it is clear from the BWB that Lews Therin earned his third name prior to the War of the Shadow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 4 - The Fall Into Shadow

At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sedai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at the time was Lews Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technology, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. Their idyllic peace and innocence had already been taken. Now, under the Dragon, they struggled to save what was left from ultimate destruction.
Thus, the third name "Telamon" was not awarded as a result of Lews Therin being the military commander of the forces of Light. The third name Telamon was awarded prior to that; only the moniker "Dragon" was given to Lews Therin during the War of the Shadow.
  #410  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
EWoT cites the RPG for this info, which means RJ probably had little or nothing to do with the info.
Yeah, EWOT refers to TWOTRPG for a variety of information that seems not to be canon; for example, I came across them using information from the RPG to rank angreal in order of strength (and while a little bit of that information is in the books, most of it isn't).

And RJ was certainly not particularly pleased with TWOTRPG:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
RJ's Blog - ONE MORE TIME - Tuesday, October 4th, 2005

For Infested Templar, I had little to do with the RPG. Mainly my role was limited to telling them that they could not have paladins, ninjas, clerics, shuriken etc. I had to put so much time into that fighting that I washed my hands of the rest, I'm afraid. I could see that trying to make them actually adapt to the books was going to be Valmy Ridge all over again. At least I managed to stop them from putting in a ter'angreal that could bring on the Last Battle in some unspecified manner and also some other really terrible ideas. I wish I had been able to do more, but I had a book to write.
  #411  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:10 AM
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Also, I meant to say earlier that if the rod had simply cast an illusion of Elayne's fantasies, then there would be no reason for her to be sitting there in her shift when she came to.
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  #412  
Old 07-01-2011, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
EWoT cites the RPG for this info, which means RJ probably had little or nothing to do with the info. As they say:


I don't know why they would count it as canon just because it 'is corroborated by the chronology'.
I used that reference because there is no other reference for what the Red Rod did that was embarassing to Elayne -- and because that explanation is just a bit less risque that RJ's description of the Rod itself suggests to the dirty-minded.

Likewise, Birgitte's desire to get "just drunk enough and no drunker" bears no direct or traceable relationship to Elayne's adventure with the Red Rod, it is the only hint anywhere I know of as to what Elayne might have dreamed -- or done -- under its influence.
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  #413  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
It isn't ever stated explicitly, Elayne broadcast a dream, and probably an erotic dream
One can get an idea that an erotic dream was broadcast, by the reaction of fellow members of Elayne's party. (See bottom of post for text quote).



Quote:
A much later comment by Birgitte in Winter's Heart after Elayne, Aviendha, and Min bonded Rand suggests that Elayne's broadcast dream may have had something to do with danccing naked on a tavern's table.
Perhaps Elayne's blushing is a common tie between those two scenes?

However, Birgitte's sudden insight and reaction... implies she has just figured out an important piece in a puzzle:


Aviendha's Oath of Fealty to Birgitte, like a apprentice to a mistress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart
Chapter 12
A Lilly in Winter



"Oosquai!" Aviendha voice rose desperately, and she was actually wringing her hands! "I know where there is oosquai! If you are drunk . . . '. Please, Birgitte! I ... I will pledge myself to obey you, as apprentice to mistress, but please do not interrupt her! Do not shame her so!"

"Oosquai?" Birgitte mused, rubbing her jaw. "Is that anything like brandy? Hmm. I think the girl is blushing! She really is prim most of the time, you know. A joke, you said?" Suddenly she grinned, and spread her arms expansively. "Lead me to this oosquai of yours, Aviendha. I don't know about you two, but I intend to get drunk enough to ... well ... to take off my clothes and dance on the table. And not a hair drunker."

Min did not understand that at all, or why Aviendha stared at Birgitte and suddenly began laughing about it being "a wonderful joke," but she was sure she knew why Elayne was blushing, if she actually was. That hard ball of sensations in her head was a raging wildfire again.

"Could we go find that oosquai, now?" she said. "I want to get drunk as a drowned mouse, and fast!"
Birgitte knows exactly how to get back at Elayne now. Aviendha is a key to her future joke--the Pattern's grand joke.
Who else is a drowned mouse, known to Birgitte?
One Mat Cauthon, among many others....
Birgitte always was one Mat's women--an ally, a friend, a drinking partner, and a soul tied to the Horn of Valere.


Elayne's crimson rod:

Quote:
And then there was the crimson rod that felt hot. Hot, in a way.

Sitting on the edge of her bed at an inn called The Wild Boar, she examined the smooth rod by the light of two polished brass lamps. Wrist-thick and a foot long, it looked like stone, but felt firm rather than hard. She was alone; since the helmet, she had tried to do her studying away from the others. The heat of the rod made her think of Fire . . .

Blinking, she opened her eyes and sat up in the bed. Sunlight streamed in at the window. She was in her shift, and Nynaeve, fully dressed, stood frowning down at her. Aviendha and Birgitte were watching from beside the door.

“What happened?” Elayne demanded, and Nynaeve shook her head grimly.

“You don’t want to know.” Her lips twitched.

Aviendha’s face gave away nothing. Birgitte’s mouth might have been a little tight, but the strongest emotion Elayne felt from her was a combination of relief and—hilarity! The woman was doing her utmost not to roll on the floor laughing!

The worst of it was, no one would tell what had happened. What she had said, or done; she was sure it was that, by the quickly hidden grins she saw, from Kinswomen and Windfinders as well as sisters. But no one would tell her! After that, she decided to leave studying the ter’angreal to somewhere more comfortable than a inn. Somewhere definitely more private!


The Path of Daggers, Chapter 20 "Into Andor" -- Elayne point of view; with Nynaeve, Aviendha, Birgitte, Lan, Kinswomen, Windfinders & two Apprentices, Aes Sedai (Merilille & her maid Pol), Fireheart (Elayne's Horse), Mandarb (Lan's Horse)

A Red Rod is an ter'angreal Alviarin used to call in Mesaana, whereas a Crimson Rod is a Dream ter'angreal Elayne used in route to Andor. For Red Rod scene, see CoT book, Chapter 21 "A Mark"--Alviarin point of view.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 07-01-2011 at 03:05 AM.
  #414  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Likewise, Birgitte's desire to get "just drunk enough and no drunker" bears no direct or traceable relationship to Elayne's adventure with the Red Rod, it is the only hint anywhere I know of as to what Elayne might have dreamed -- or done -- under its influence.
Indeed, but I'm assuming she actually took off her clothes and danced on a table - or tried to. That explains the shift. It's probably safe to assume that the RPG people didn't even notice the reference in Winter's Heart.
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  #415  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
A Red Rod is an ter'angreal Alviarin used to call in Mesaana, whereas a Crimson Rod is a Dream ter'angreal Elayne used in route to Andor. For Red Rod scene, see CoT book, Chapter 21 "A Mark"--Alviarin point of view.
The Encyclopedia WOT's Items list calls the "Crimson Rod" the "Red Rod"

They list the "Red Rod" in your terminology as the "tiny red rod"

Quote:
Tiny Red Rod

A ter'angreal in the form of a tiny red rod the size of a forefinger. It is smooth except for a few fine lines worked into the surface in a sinuous interconnecting pattern. It is a signal device activated by touching it with Fire and Earth and pressing on the end.
I use the eEOT's nomenclature because it easier to link reference pages that way.

Still, the passage you quoted is really all of the information we have about what the ter'angreal caused Elayne to do or dream.
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  #416  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Indeed, but I'm assuming she actually took off her clothes and danced on a table - or tried to. That explains the shift. It's probably safe to assume that the RPG people didn't even notice the reference in Winter's Heart.
True.

This is one of those mysteries that RJ refused to elaborate on because what the readers came up with was usually better -- and more salacious -- than what he originally envisioned.

In the same vein, what is a Nine Horse Hitch and why would it embarass Siuan?
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Last edited by Weird Harold; 07-01-2011 at 03:58 AM. Reason: stupid fingers
  #417  
Old 07-01-2011, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
It isn't at all clear that people in the AOL knew what a dragon was. Per RJ, Lews Therin Telamon was given the name "Dragon" first, and only later was the creature on his banner connected with that name. RJ also said that there were no dragons in Randland.




Also, it is clear from the BWB that Lews Therin earned his third name prior to the War of the Shadow.



Thus, the third name "Telamon" was not awarded as a result of Lews Therin being the military commander of the forces of Light. The third name Telamon was awarded prior to that; only the moniker "Dragon" was given to Lews Therin during the War of the Shadow.
Nothing you cited suggested that Lews Therin was given his name "Dragon" only after the start of the War of the Shadow. I personally agree that that that is likely, and I prefer my second possible meaning for the name ("World Heart"), but you will have to do better than that if you want to refute the "Telamon means Dragon" theory completely.
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  #418  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:04 AM
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Then how about this quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB, Chapter 4, The Fall Into the Shadow
At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sedai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at the time was Lews Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technology, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. Their idyllic peace and innocence had already been taken. Now, under the Dragon, they struggled to save what was left from ultimate destruction.
If Telamon meant Dragon, then the "... who came to be known as the Dragon" does not make sense, as he was already called Telamon.
  #419  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Then how about this quote:
If Telamon meant Dragon, then the "... who came to be known as the Dragon" does not make sense, as he was already called Telamon.
Yes, that does make sense. It also might suggest that "Telamon" has some association with "Morning", which is a third possibility.

EDITED TO ADD: Although even that one doesn't kill it dead, since it could well mean that after the start of the War he became more commonly known by his third name, while prior to it he was most commonly known as just Lews Therin, despite having all three names prior to the War.
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
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may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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Last edited by Zombie Sammael; 07-01-2011 at 06:09 AM.
  #420  
Old 07-01-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
True.

This is one of those mysteries that RJ refused to elaborate on because what the readers came up with was usually better -- and more salacious -- than what he originally envisioned.

In the same vein, what is a Nine Horse Hitch and why would it embarass Siuan?
Linda from the 13th depository did a big writeup on the Inns of Randland.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/sea...w%20Drop%20Inn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Yes, that does make sense. It also might suggest that "Telamon" has some association with "Morning", which is a third possibility.

EDITED TO ADD: Although even that one doesn't kill it dead, since it could well mean that after the start of the War he became more commonly known by his third name, while prior to it he was most commonly known as just Lews Therin, despite having all three names prior to the War.
Maybe the 'amon'/'aman' suffix was derived from LTT's name and became synonomous to 'Dragon'.
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