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  #421  
Old 07-01-2011, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Nothing you cited suggested that Lews Therin was given his name "Dragon" only after the start of the War of the Shadow. I personally agree that that that is likely, and I prefer my second possible meaning for the name ("World Heart"), but you will have to do better than that if you want to refute the "Telamon means Dragon" theory completely.
The quote that Gonzo gave from the BWB that indicates that Lews Therin Telamon 'came to be known as Dragon' after he already had his third name is exactly the same quote that I already provided.

Also, if you'd like more, from the composite glossary that was recently completed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Dragon, the: (1) Name by which Lews Therin Telamon was known during the War of the Shadow. In the madness that overtook all male Aes Sedai, Lews Therin killed everyone who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved, thus earning the name Kinslayer. (FTTR) A saying is now used, "taken by the Dragon," or "possessed of the Dragon," to indicate that someone is endangering those around him or threatening them, especially if without cause. See also Dragon Reborn; Dragon, Prophecies of the.
  #422  
Old 07-01-2011, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
Linda from the 13th depository did a big writeup on the Inns of Randland.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/sea...w%20Drop%20Inn
Which contains the comment that prompted my somewhat facetious question:

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  #423  
Old 07-03-2011, 09:19 AM
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Do we know if there are female Ogier Gardeners? We know females can rise high and are (seemingly) treated equally in the EVA, but does Seanchan Ogier culture permit them to fight?
And do Ogiers vary in... race (for want of a better word) as humans do?
  #424  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
That would make more sense if the name was tel'amon rather than telamon, since the former would imply a combination of two words, while the latter implies just one word. Either way, assuming based on tel'aran'rhiod that "tel" = "the" seems faulty. Take for example the two translations of the phrase given by Moiraine - "the world of dreams" & "the unseen world". So, part of the whole phrase obviously is a word meaning world, but that word could be any of the three components, not necessarily the last of the three, and none of the three need mean "the". Keep in mind, some languages have no definite nor indefinite articles. Latin is the most obvious example of such a language. Either way, that leaves us with a serious problem when it comes to translating the components without other cross references. If one of the three components means world, how can the other two produce either "of dreams" or "unseen"? The same word, or group of words must carry both meanings, but either way it means that none of the three components could mean "of" since the preposition was only used in one of her two translations, and wouldn't make sense in the other. Or, two of the words could combine to mean world, just as the Latin phrase "orbis terrarum" means world, though could also be translated as orb of lands. One might have wished that she translated the phrase as "unseen world" or "dream world".

Think of it this way. Say you have two phrases - "onerous" and "one way street". Does the "one" in "one way street" in any way help you in understanding the meaning of "onerous"?
I saw a poster on here once deduce that Telamon meant Heart of the World.

Tel from tel'aron'rhiod - World of Dreams
Amon from Ba'alzamon - Heart of the Dark

I thought that made sense since the world is one with the Dragon, etc, etc.
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  #425  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:28 AM
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It could of course also mean Dark World.
  #426  
Old 07-03-2011, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kivo View Post
I saw a poster on here once deduce that Telamon meant Heart of the World.

Tel from tel'aron'rhiod - World of Dreams
Amon from Ba'alzamon - Heart of the Dark

I thought that made sense since the world is one with the Dragon, etc, etc.
....yes, that was me, just now, in response to this very issue.

(apologies if someone else had actually done it before)
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  #427  
Old 07-03-2011, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kivo View Post
I saw a poster on here once deduce that Telamon meant Heart of the World.

Tel from tel'aron'rhiod - World of Dreams
Amon from Ba'alzamon - Heart of the Dark

I thought that made sense since the world is one with the Dragon, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
....yes, that was me, just now, in response to this very issue.

(apologies if someone else had actually done it before)
Well, first we know that Ba'alzamon is a word in the Trolloc language, so the meanings might not be at all the same as those in the Old Tongue. And I'd suggest that the meanings are pretty definitely not the same, since "dark" in the Old Tongue is "shaidar" (as in Shaidar Haran, Hand of the Dark), and Ba'alzamon doesn't contain the word "shaidar".

Second, we know that "heart" in the Old Tongue is not "amon" but rather the word "cuebiyar" means "heart" (as in the Old Tongue for Heart Guard, Valdar Cuebiyari). Or as a prefix, "cuen" is used to mean "heart", as in cuendillar, or heartstone.

Thus, the fact that Ba'alzamon means Heart of the Dark in the Trolloc language tells us nothing about the meaning of Telamon, and therefore Telamon is not likely to mean "Heart of the World".


Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It could of course also mean Dark World.
Again, probably not, since "dark" is "shaidar" in the Old Tongue.
  #428  
Old 07-03-2011, 06:09 PM
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I've always thought that "Telamon" might just mean "the Dragon". Compare "Siswai'aman", which means "spears of the dragon" (and we know Siswai means spear(s)).
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  #429  
Old 07-03-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
Well, first we know that Ba'alzamon is a word in the Trolloc language, so the meanings might not be at all the same as those in the Old Tongue. And I'd suggest that the meanings are pretty definitely not the same, since "dark" in the Old Tongue is "shaidar" (as in Shaidar Haran, Hand of the Dark), and Ba'alzamon doesn't contain the word "shaidar".

Second, we know that "heart" in the Old Tongue is not "amon" but rather the word "cuebiyar" means "heart" (as in the Old Tongue for Heart Guard, Valdar Cuebiyari). Or as a prefix, "cuen" is used to mean "heart", as in cuendillar, or heartstone.

Thus, the fact that Ba'alzamon means Heart of the Dark in the Trolloc language tells us nothing about the meaning of Telamon, and therefore Telamon is not likely to mean "Heart of the World".




Again, probably not, since "dark" is "shaidar" in the Old Tongue.
We are now officially just going round in circles. Boring circles.
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  #430  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:24 PM
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New question:
Why is it that so many believe that Mat, Rand, and Perrin will lose their Ta'veren-ness after the LB? Artur Hawking was Ta'veren, yet they NEVER say anything about him losing it. Same with LTT, said he was a Ta'veren, but that he never lost it. Because the LB will be over? Wouldn't one think that Hawking would have lost his Ta'veren status after he conquered all of Randland? And same with LTT winning the War of Power? Right up to the very end, these 2 had a very large impact on the world. So why shouldn't Perrin, Mat, and Rand? Not the current/new age, but effects on ages and generations down the line?
  #431  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
New question:
Why is it that so many believe that Mat, Rand, and Perrin will lose their Ta'veren-ness after the LB? Artur Hawking was Ta'veren, yet they NEVER say anything about him losing it. Same with LTT, said he was a Ta'veren, but that he never lost it. Because the LB will be over? Wouldn't one think that Hawking would have lost his Ta'veren status after he conquered all of Randland? And same with LTT winning the War of Power? Right up to the very end, these 2 had a very large impact on the world. So why shouldn't Perrin, Mat, and Rand? Not the current/new age, but effects on ages and generations down the line?
It is generally theorized that once the flaws in the pattern have been straightened out and corrected, that there would no longer be a need.
  #432  
Old 07-04-2011, 12:20 AM
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What is the timing for Moraine's freeing and Rand's dream of Mierin?
  #433  
Old 07-04-2011, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
New question:
Why is it that so many believe that Mat, Rand, and Perrin will lose their Ta'veren-ness after the LB? Artur Hawking was Ta'veren, yet they NEVER say anything about him losing it. Same with LTT, said he was a Ta'veren, but that he never lost it.
How many people say things like Thomas Jefferson was a great president but don't mention much anything about his life after being president?

LTT probably died Ta'veren, and Rand may well die Ta'veren. There is no reason to believe that Mat and Perrin will die ta'veren, although they will be remembered as being ta'veren.

Not dieing ta'veren is pretty much the corollary to RJ's assertion that nobody is born ta'veren; the pattern creates ta'veren when they are needed and they stop being ta'veren when the Pattern no longer needs a ta'veren.
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  #434  
Old 07-04-2011, 02:35 AM
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There will still be a need for pattern level players after the LB, at least for a short time.
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  #435  
Old 07-04-2011, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
There will still be a need for pattern level players after the LB, at least for a short time.
The planned outrigger novel involving Mat and Tuon's return to pacify the Seanchan continent certainly suggests that Mat would probably stay ta'veren for at least another decade or two.

There doesn't seem to be any pressing need for Lord Perrin to stay ta'veren to rule the Two Rivers and/or Saldea when Faile ascends the Saldean Throne.

If Rand is to be believed dead and retire into obscurity, staying ta'veren would be contra-indicated; especially as strongly ta'veren as Rand is at the moment.
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  #436  
Old 07-04-2011, 07:43 AM
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Oh, I dunno. He could switch careers, and start roaming the world as the Wedding Maker. Wander into a town, play a couple of tunes on his flute, have all unmarried people get hitched and leave for the next town. His cover would be that he asks money to play at the weddings, thus giving the impression that it is some kind of trick. And no one could expose him, as the only ones who could do that are AS or (some) Asha'man. The AS would not dare come close as they are generally unmarried themselves, and Logain would just laugh and decide that he had more pressing matters (like being the official leader of all male channelers, instead of merely a reasonably competent sidekick).
  #437  
Old 07-04-2011, 03:06 PM
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A couple of questions I cam across while going through CoT. Be warned, this may have been discussed somewhere but I'd like an answer if anyone knows or even valid guesses.

First Q is about the mystery that got Karede going after Tuon.

Quote:
“Listen to a story,” Mor said slowly, “and tell me what you think.” His gaze was fastened to Karede as if by tacks, studying, weighing, evaluating as though Karede were on the block at sale. “This came to us in the last few days.” By us, he meant the Seekers. “It began among the local people, as near as we can tell, though we have not yet found the original source. Supposedly, a girl with a Seandar accent has been extorting gold and jewelry from mer*chants here in Ebou Dar. The title Daughter of the Nine Moons was mentioned.”
Was this semirhage's plot? Or someone else? And how did they get members of the deathwatch guard into it? Does this mean we can expect DF deathwatch guards soon? Is there any hint the plot was still active after semi's capture?


The second Q is about Elza's warder Fearil. What happens to a warder when his AS is BFed?
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  #438  
Old 07-04-2011, 06:35 PM
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Semmirhage seems the most likely culprit, in order to discredit the guards and make Tuon vulnerable even with them, and also to set the EV army as her unwitting hunter/executioner. No evidence indicating it continued after Tuon's return.

As for elza, she died before she was hit, so fearil went nuts a little prematurely.
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  #439  
Old 07-04-2011, 07:45 PM
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Semmirhage seems the most likely culprit, ...
I think you've got the motive pretty much nailed, but Semirhage gave the job of dealing with Tuon to Suroth. The fact that it stopped when Tuon dealt with Suroth would seem to support that theory -- of course, once Tuon returned, carrying on with the charade would be pretty much suicidal so it's not real solid evidence.
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  #440  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:32 AM
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And the "deatwatch guards" may not have been the real deal anymore than that DOTNM was the real deal. Actually, it is even possible that it never happened, that it was a rumor only.
 


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