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  #521  
Old 07-21-2011, 07:30 PM
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Default Elayne's acting no better than the Seanchan Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
Elayne did not pick new High Seats. She confiscated the old High Seats. Not the same thing.
Elayne stole the Estates of three Houses. If you want to call it 'war booty' instead, fine.


Andoran Queen's do not have the power over Estates & Houses to pick and choose who shall rule them. Elayne did exactly that in ToM Book.

Elayne's become akin to a slave trader, as of ToM Book, in the style of the Seanchan Empire. Demoting Nobles to a slavery, and giving away their lands & people to others. Commoners, Nobles who once had a Voice of whom to follow or not, now lack that Voice under Elayne.


Ha! 'Protector of the People', now that's rich.


Quote:
Andor is not a democracy, believe it or not, and the Queen was telling her current and potential enemies that she is not to be trifled with.
I never claimed Andor was a democracy, akin to Illian with it's three tier system:
King,
Council of Nine (Nobles),
Assemblage (Commoners).

Minor Houses, Minor Lords choose who ally with, Elayne cannot choose for them until they give their consent. They are sovereign over their lands, not the Queen.

  • Queen of Andor
  • High Seats (together pick or war over, who shall be Queen)
  • High Seat
  • Minor Nobles (pick High Seat to follow)
  • Minor Nobles
  • Commoners or the People (pick Minor Noble to follow)

Quote:
Most would remember her affability, remember the Golden Boars her escort wore, and know that Elenia Sarand had taken notice of them. On such a foundation power was built. A High Seat as much as a queen stood atop a tower built of people. True, those at the bottom were bricks of the basest clay, yet if those common bricks crumpled in their support, the tower fell. That was something Arymilla appeared to have forgotten, if she had ever known. Elenia doubted that Arymilla spoke to anyone lower than a steward or a personal servant. Had it been . . . prudent . . . she herself would have passed a few words at every campfire, perhaps grasping a grubby hand now and then, remembering people she had encountered before or at least dissembling well enough to make it seem she did. Pure and simple, Arymilla lacked the wit to be queen.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 15 "Gathering Darkness" -- Elenia Sarand point of view
Even Minor House's High Seat choose whom to ally with:

Quote:
She could try to hang on after that revelation, yet even a House with many fewer antagonisms between its members than Arawn, many fewer cousins and aunts and uncles ready to undercut one another in a heartbeat, would still break apart. The lesser Houses that had been tied to Arawn for generations would seek protection elsewhere. In a matter of years, if not sooner, Naean would be left as the High Seat of a minor and discredited remnant. Oh, yes; it had happened before.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 15 "Gathering Darkness" -- Elenia Sarand point of view

Caeren's Nobles did exactly that, they choose a new High Seat, Sylvase.

Quote:
“Caeren stands for Trakand,” Sylvase said shockingly as soon as she reined in. The bond echoed Elayne's startlement. Arymilla gaped at Sylvase as if she were mad. “My grandfather suffered a seizure, Arymilla,” the young woman said calmly, “and my cousins fell over themselves affirming me as High Seat. I will publish it, Elayne, if you wish.”

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 33 "Nine Out of Ten" -- Elayne point of view

In another nation, a High Seat and First of Mayene, Berelain did exactly that: ally with Rand al'Thor freely.

Last edited by FelixPax; 07-21-2011 at 11:29 PM. Reason: typo
  #522  
Old 07-21-2011, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Elayne stole the Estates of three Houses. If you want to call it 'war booty' instead, fine.
No, Elayne confiscated three estates that rose in rebellion after she had sufficient votes to claim the crown. A punishment power that any ruling polity possesses.

Elayne cannot arbitrarily overthrow a house or head of household at any level, but she can, and did, punish treason in a manner unederstood and expected by the Houses that stood for her to be queen.
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  #523  
Old 07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
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This kinda creeped me out...
Board showed 4 members on but only three names.
Can members hide themselves or am I losing my mind?
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  #524  
Old 07-22-2011, 12:48 AM
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Default Elayne's spitefulness reaches a new low. A bit dense too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
No, Elayne confiscated three estates that rose in rebellion after she had sufficient votes to claim the crown. A punishment power that any ruling polity possesses.
Sufficient? Nope.
Those three Nobles lose a battle, then the six losers split into two groups of three.
Elayne was still not yet Queen.
Only 9 Houses of support, not 10.


Confiscated?
Nope. Elayne created a fine to bankrupt three Houses, to spite them. Perhaps ta'veren caused spitefulness? (use of "sudden" is a clue for ta'verenness)


Quote:
“You will be my guests in the palace for the time being,” Elayne told them. “I hope your coffers are deep. Your ransoms will pay for this war you've caused.” That was malicious of her, but she felt spiteful all of a sudden. Their coffers were not deep at all. They had borrowed far more than they could repay in order to hire mercenaries. And bribe mercenaries. They faced ruin without any ransom. With, they faced devastation.


Knife of Dreams Chapter 33 "Nine Out of Ten" -- Elayne point of view

Sylvase's House fought against Elayne, and yet it walked away basically unpunished by picking a different High Seat.

Lir Baryn and Karind Anshar's Houses switched sides, and retained both their Estates & Titles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Elayne cannot arbitrarily overthrow a house or head of household at any level, but she can, and did, punish treason in a manner unederstood and expected by the Houses that stood for her to be queen.
Treason?
Nope, a "Succession".
Morgase's Succession was the 3rd.


Morgase's prior treatment of various Noble Houses, helped to create a mess in Andor. Basically Twelve to Thirteen Houses did not automatically support Elayne's claim to rule Andor.


Until the very end of KoD book, Andor was divided three ways 6 by 6 by 6, with at least 1 major house on the sides lines--Danine Candraed. (See KoD book, Chapter 17)


Luan, Abelle, Pelivar, Aemlyn, Arathelle, Ellorien backed Dyelin to rule originally, not Elayne. Elayne simply would not be Queen of Andor without Dyelin's support. No question at all. (KoD, Ch.35)

Quote:
Ellorien opened her mouth again, and this time, Luan cut her off. “We've come to ask for a truce. Elayne.”

Ten Noble Houses determine who rules in Andor. Gain support of ten Houses and it's legal. Regardless what another Andoran House claims.


Sylvase implicitly highlights this point, to rule a person needs 10 Houses support.


Quote:
“If Luan and the others will not support you, what good will taking Caemlyn do?” Sylvase, Nasin's granddaughter and heir, spoke so seldom that the question came as a shock. Sturdy and not quite pretty, she usually had a vapid gaze, but her blue eyes appeared quite sharp at the moment. Everyone stared at her. That seemed not to faze her a bit. She toyed with a winecup, but Arymilla thought it no more than her second. “If we must fight the Borderlanders, why not accept Luan's truce so Andor can field its full strength unhindered by divisions?”


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 17 "A Bronze Bear" -- Arymilla point of view
The Numbers are simple... Sylvase knew Arymilla side lacks enough support. Arymilla rejected Luan's truce offer.

Two generations back Luan's Norwelyn House possessed the Rose Crown of Andor.


Elayne's no different from what Suroth's Seanchan Forces did in Tarabon. Former rulers either killed or imprisoned to slavery, e.g. Amathera or Elenia, Naean.


Elayne never asked a deeper question of why Elenia or Naean supported Arymilla in the first place. Elayne never figured out that each had been coerced or tortured into it. Elayne accepted ironically enough three vipers' Houses as allies instead: Kir, Karind, Sylvase.
  #525  
Old 07-22-2011, 04:39 AM
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Arymilla and the other two owed a huge ransom according to the traditions and laws of Andor. They couldn't pay it, since they went broke trying to get the throne, so their lands were confiscated. And those three got a chance to start over without debts with lesser estates, so it's not like they were ruined. I don't see that as against the established way the things work in Andor. They weren't punished for treason, that was made clear early on Ch. 11 of ToM.

Quote:
Sufficient? Nope.
Those three Nobles lose a battle, then the six losers split into two groups of three.
Elayne was still not yet Queen.
Only 9 Houses of support, not 10.
What's your point? Soon after she got enough votes, so this doesn't matter. The other three were smarter and switched sides in time, plus they had left their options more options and hasn't published their support for Arymilla in writing IIRC.
  #526  
Old 07-22-2011, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by padfoot89 View Post
Do we know how Mesaana managed to circumvent the oath ?
She is no mere Darkfriend... and thus could say that quite truthfully.
(Recall Lanfear's attitude to that accusation?)
  #527  
Old 07-22-2011, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
This kinda creeped me out...
Board showed 4 members on but only three names.
Can members hide themselves or am I losing my mind?
Yes you can set your status to invisible which will cause the disply that cought your eye.
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  #528  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Elayne stole the Estates of three Houses. If you want to call it 'war booty' instead, fine.


Andoran Queen's do not have the power over Estates & Houses to pick and choose who shall rule them. Elayne did exactly that in ToM Book.

Elayne's become akin to a slave trader, as of ToM Book, in the style of the Seanchan Empire. Demoting Nobles to a slavery, and giving away their lands & people to others. Commoners, Nobles who once had a Voice of whom to follow or not, now lack that Voice under Elayne.


Ha! 'Protector of the People', now that's rich.




I never claimed Andor was a democracy, akin to Illian with it's three tier system:
King,
Council of Nine (Nobles),
Assemblage (Commoners).

Minor Houses, Minor Lords choose who ally with, Elayne cannot choose for them until they give their consent. They are sovereign over their lands, not the Queen.

  • Queen of Andor
  • High Seats (together pick or war over, who shall be Queen)
  • High Seat
  • Minor Nobles (pick High Seat to follow)
  • Minor Nobles
  • Commoners or the People (pick Minor Noble to follow)



Even Minor House's High Seat choose whom to ally with:




Caeren's Nobles did exactly that, they choose a new High Seat, Sylvase.




In another nation, a High Seat and First of Mayene, Berelain did exactly that: ally with Rand al'Thor freely.
Elayne, as Queen, has the same powers as a 'super-magistrate', so she tried and sentenced the High Seats for treason and financial fraud. It's no different then when real life courts seize assets of criminals to pay off the damages that their crimes caused.

Why would you possibly think that Elayne would not punish them? Should she just slap their wrists?
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  #529  
Old 07-22-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
What's your point? Soon after she got enough votes, so this doesn't matter. The other three were smarter and switched sides in time, plus they had left their options more options and hasn't published their support for Arymilla in writing IIRC.
Elayne ACTED AS A QUEEN before she legally gained the status of a Queen.


Elayne only had 9 votes, not 10 votes. Elayne was only a High Seat, when she fined 5 houses and bankrupted on purpose 3 houses.

Even Morgase coming to power, as Queen with at least 10 votes, did not do what Elayne did to her political enemies.

Elayne over reached.
Elayne gave away what she could not legally own.

Elayne denied People in those Estates a vote, on who was to rule them, as a High Seat.

Elayne's acting as a dictator above what ever Morgase ever did as Queen.

Last edited by FelixPax; 07-23-2011 at 11:09 PM. Reason: typos
  #530  
Old 07-22-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
She is no mere Darkfriend... and thus could say that quite truthfully.
(Recall Lanfear's attitude to that accusation?)
Yes, I know the theories about how she could have avoided capture but I was wondering if someone confirmed that this was what she did.
  #531  
Old 07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
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Elayne ACTED AS A QUEEN before she legally gained the status of a Queen.


Elayne only had 9 votes, not 10 votes. Elayne was only a High Seat, when she fined 6 houses and bankrupted on purpose 3 houses.
Where you get that from? Show me a quote that she fined anyone before she was a Queen. The first mention I recall is from ToM, Ch. 11 and at that point, she had at least 14 votes and was crowned. if you have an earlier one, post it.

Quote:
Elayne denied People in those Estates a vote, on who was to rule them, as a High Seat.
A vote? It's a feudal system, there's no voting. The heir of the previous High Seats gets the place.

As for Mesaana - IIRC Brandon confirmed one of the three methods suggested in Ch. 15 of ToM for tricking the Oath Rod was used by Mesaana.
  #532  
Old 07-22-2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Elayne ACTED AS A QUEEN before she legally gained the status of a Queen.


Elayne only had 9 votes, not 10 votes. Elayne was only a High Seat, when she fined 6 houses and bankrupted on purpose 3 houses.

Even Morgase coming to power, as Queen with at least 10 votes, did not do what Elayne did to her political enemies.

Elayne over reached.
Elayne gave away what she could not legally own.

Elayne denied People in those Estates a vote, on who was to rule them, as a High Seat.

Elayne's acting as a dictator above what ever Morgase ever did as Queen.
The 3 houses would have been bankrupted if they paid the ransoms, which they didn't:

Quote:
Towers of Midnight CH: 50 - Choosing Enemies
"The Crown has given much thought to you three," Elayne pronounced, "Your misguided war against Trakand has left you destitute, and requests for ransom have been turned away by your heirs and scions. Your own Houses have abandoned you." Her words rang in the grand throne room. The women before her bowed down further. "This leaves the Crown with a conundrum," Elayne said. "You vex us with your troubling existences. Perhaps some queens would have left you to prison, but I find that reeks of indecision. You would drain my resources and make men whisper of ways to free you." The hall fell silent save for the husky breathing of the prisoners.

"This Crown is not prone to indecisiveness," Elayne pronounced. "On this day, Houses Sarand, Marne and Arawn are stripped of title and estate, their lands forfeit to the Crown in retribution for their crimes." Elenia gasped, looking up. Arymilla groaned, slouching down on the lion-centered rug. Naean did not respond. She seemed numb. Murmuring rose immediately from the sitting room. This was worse than an execution. When nobles were executed, they were at least executed with their titles-in a way, an execution was an acknowledgment of a worthy foe. The title and lands passed on to the heir, and the House survived.
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  #533  
Old 07-22-2011, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Where you get that from? Show me a quote that she fined anyone before she was a Queen. The first mention I recall is from ToM, Ch. 11 and at that point, she had at least 14 votes and was crowned. if you have an earlier one, post it.
Where did Elayne first over reach?

Re-Read --> Knife of Dreams, Chapter 33 "Nine Out of Ten".

Quote:
“You will be my guests in the palace for the time being,” Elayne told them. “I hope your coffers are deep. Your ransoms will pay for this war you've caused.” That was malicious of her, but she felt spiteful all of a sudden. Their coffers were not deep at all. They had borrowed far more than they could repay in order to hire mercenaries. And bribe mercenaries. They faced ruin without any ransom. With, they faced devastation.

“You cannot believe it ends this way.” Arymilla said hoarsely. She sounded as if she were trying to convince herself. “Jarid is still in the field with a considerable force. Jarid and others. Tell her, Elenia.”
Elayne was only a High Seat, yet she created a ransom.

Elayne didn't even equally apply her ransom, as Sylvase's House of Caeren. Elayne's Justice was unequal in it's application. House of Caeren fought against Elayne's claim, yet no fine nor ransom was issued against Caeren.


ToM Chapter 11 was written in the style of Brandon Sanderson, it's one of the many problematic chapters in ToM book in terms of Elayne's character. Sanderson screwed up on Elayne's character (among others Norry, Birgitte too). It's far worst than Matrim Cauthon's humor screw up in TGS book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
A vote? It's a feudal system, there's no voting. The heir of the previous High Seats gets the place.
Commoners pick whom to work for, whom is their boss or Minor Noble. Minor Nobles pick who is to be their High Seat in a given larger alliance of Houses.

Yes, there is voting. Voting is among Peers. Highest count among Peers leads.


In Elayne's own House of Trakand, she personally went to round up support from her own Minor Nobles alliance: e.g. The House of Matherin.

House of Matherin could have freely decided to break off from the House of Trakand and ally with another Major House, say House of Candraed (Danine's). Candraed stayed undecided in the Andoran Civil War, just as another major House of Traemane technically did (Ellorien's House).

The House of Bryne broke off from the House of Trakand, and supported no one during the Andoran Civil War. Granted Gareth Bryne's House was a Minor House, not one in the Great 20 Andoran Houses who determine who Rules.

Gareth Bryne's House instead became involved in the Aes Sedai Civil War, rather than the Andoran Civil War.


Even Heirs to a given High Seat, are subject to be approved by one's Peers in a given House. Sylvase Caeren expressly refers to that fact. Sylvase's cousins voted to confirm her as High Seat of the House of Caeren. (KoD Book)

Last edited by FelixPax; 07-22-2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason: added word "cousins" to last sentence
  #534  
Old 07-22-2011, 12:58 PM
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Fine, I had forgotten the ransom was put together in KoD, but this doesn't change much. Nobles capturing each other and being released for ransom was a common practice thoroughout history, and didn't have to be Kings or Queens to demand ransom. The situation in andor is pretty similar.

Quote:
Elayne didn't even equally apply her ransom, as Sylvase's House of Caeren. Elayne's Justice was unequal in it's application. House of Caeren fought against Elayne's claim, yet no fine nor ransom was issued against Caeren.
So? Arymilla was the leader, and Naean and Elenia had declared for the Lion Throne, it's logical that they'd get the biggest ransoms. Caeren switched sides in time, those are the breaks during a civil war.


There is no voting for High Seat. Sylvase was Nasin's heir, her cousins didn't voted, they affirm her quickly, so the switch over to the winning side can be made in time.

Elayne certainly didn't require anyone's approval to become Trakand's High Seat and nobody voted her in. Once her mother was dead, she was considered the High Seat by everyone, since that's the way things go in Andor. Yes, Elayne went out to round up support among Trakand's minor sworn Houses, but that was for her claim for the throne. Morgase assumed Elayne would be Trakand's High Seat after she abdicated from her titles and so did everybody else when they thought Morgase was dead. There's no evidence that the situation is different in the other Houses - there are a bunch of underage High Seats, why choose them instead of their uncles or aunts who are of age? Dyelin's father died when she was 15 and as a High Seat she had to lead military operations immediately - why not choose someone older and more experienced in such situations if that was possible?

Last edited by David Selig; 07-22-2011 at 01:01 PM.
  #535  
Old 07-22-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Where did Elayne first over reach?

Re-Read --> Knife of Dreams, Chapter 33 "Nine Out of Ten".



Elayne was only a High Seat, yet she created a ransom.

Elayne didn't even equally apply her ransom, as Sylvase's House of Caeren. Elayne's Justice was unequal in it's application. House of Caeren fought against Elayne's claim, yet no fine nor ransom was issued against Caeren.


ToM Chapter 11 was written in the style of Brandon Sanderson, it's one of the many problematic chapters in ToM book in terms of Elayne's character. Sanderson screwed up on Elayne's character (among others Norry, Birgitte too). It's far worst than Matrim Cauthon's humor screw up in TGS book.




Commoners pick whom to work for, whom is their boss or Minor Noble. Minor Nobles pick who is to be their High Seat in a given larger alliance of Houses.

Yes, there is voting. Voting is among Peers. Highest count among Peers leads.


In Elayne's own House of Trakand, she personally went to round up support from her own Minor Nobles alliance: e.g. The House of Matherin.

House of Matherin could have freely decided to break off from the House of Trakand and ally with another Major House, say House of Candraed (Danine's). Candraed stayed undecided in the Andoran Civil War, just as another major House of Traemane technically did (Ellorien's House).

The House of Bryne broke off from the House of Trakand, and supported no one during the Andoran Civil War. Granted Gareth Bryne's House was a Minor House, not one in the Great 20 Andoran Houses who determine who Rules.

Gareth Bryne's House instead became involved in the Aes Sedai Civil War, rather than the Andoran Civil War.


Even Heirs to a given High Seat, are subject to be approved by one's Peers in a given House. Sylvase Caeren expressly refers to that fact. Sylvase's cousins voted to confirm her as High Seat of the House of Caeren. (KoD Book)
Elayne may not have been the Queen at that point, but she was the Daughter-Heir vying for the Lion Throne and on the winning side of a civil war initiated by Arymilla, and took the losing nobles as prisoners of war. All's Fair, and so on...
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  #536  
Old 07-22-2011, 02:19 PM
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Default Blowback, Mutiny, Changing Horses, Alliances

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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Fine, I had forgotten the ransom was put together in KoD, but this doesn't change much. Nobles capturing each other and being released for ransom was a common practice thoroughout history, and didn't have to be Kings or Queens to demand ransom. The situation in andor is pretty similar.
When Mordrellen's House of Mantear won an Andoran war to rule as Queen, the House of Norwelyn was not destroyed by a ransom nor fine, after the fact.

The House of Norwelyn remained a powerful Major Noble House, after Mordrellen's House of Mantear Succession to the Rose Crown.

The House of Norwelyn is powerful enough, to have a whole river in Andor named after one of it's ruling members: Luan, the Luan River.

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In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose on the great plain called the Caralain Grass. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

North and west the wind blew beneath early morning sun, over endless miles of rolling grass and far-scattered thickets, across the swift-flowing River Luan, past the broken-topped fang of Dragonmount, mountain of legend towering above the slow swells of the rolling plain, looming so high that clouds wreathed it less than halfway to the smoking peak.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1 "Seeds of Shadow"


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
There is no voting for High Seat. Sylvase was Nasin's heir, her cousins didn't voted, they affirm her quickly, so the switch over to the winning side can be made in time.
Ever stop to think what "no confirmation" means?


No rule. No authority. No additional power to speak as a larger group. No common voice to speak for a given group of minor nobles.


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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Elayne certainly didn't require anyone's approval to become Trakand's High Seat and nobody voted her in. Once her mother was dead, she was considered the High Seat by everyone, since that's the way things go in Andor.
Incorrect. Each House needs to give its consent to grant a person the status of a High Seat. Be it, minor House or major House in Andor.

Take the House of Gilyard.
Elayne was very unhappy to Dyelin did not gain the consent of the Gilyard Minor Nobles & Advisors.
The House of Gilyard, can rebut Branlet Gilyard's open declaration for Elayne to be Queen of Andor.
Why? Because Branlet Gilyard never legally gained the majority consent of the wider House of Gilyard.


Quote:
“Be that as it may, Dyelin,” Elayne continued, “I would have been more pleased if you had brought their advisors with them. What’s done is done, but Branlet troubles me in particular. If Gilyard accuses me of kidnapping him, matters become worse than they were, not better.”

Dyelin waved that away. “You don’t know the Gilyards well, do you? The way they squabble among themselves, they may not notice the boy is gone before summer, and if they do, none will repudiate what he’s done. None of them will admit they were so busy in arguing over who’s to be his guardian that they forgot to keep an eye on him. And second, none of them will admit they weren’t consulted beforehand. In any event, Gilyard would stand for Zaida before standing for Marne, and they don’t like Arawn or Sarand much better.”

“I hope you’re right, Dyelin, because I’m appointing you to deal with any angry Gilyards who appear. And while you’re advising the other three, you can keep a thumb on Conail so he doesn’t do anything completely harebrained.”


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 13 "High Seats" -- Elayne point of view; with Dyelin and four young Andoran Nobles

Dyelin made a series of assumptions, about the House of Gilyard. It remains to be seen if the House of Gilyards wider group of Nobles decides to repudiate Branlet's declarations.


Pelivar Coelan, Aemlyn Carand, Arathelle Renshar's Houses are still playing Daes Dae’mar. They never wanted Elayne to rule as Queen.
Ditto Ellorien Traemane, Danine Candraed's Houses as neutrals.
Ditto Lir Baryn, Karind Anshar, Sylvase Caeren's Houses as pseudo-Allies.
Toss in a rebellion from within the House of Gilyard.
Ditto High Seat Jared Sarand's active stand against Elayne rule
Count'em that is Ten Major Andoran Houses in flux. Votes up for grabs.



This isn't even considering support gained from Northern Murandy Major Nobles to overthrow Elayne's rule as Queen. Nor considering assistance from a Seanchan Empire backed King Roedan out of Lugard aiding an overthrow of Elayne's authority.


Elayne's position as Queen, is weaker than it seems on paper.


All that's occurred is the Daes Dae'mar has moved to another more secretive level of negotiations & war plans.


The First Clerk Norry isn't even working sincerely for Elayne's own interests. Sigh.


Chuckles, one rumor Matrim Cauthon read in Caemlyn in ToM Book was Zaida's Sea Folk creating an alliance with the Seanchan Empire. Crazier alliances has been created before... more likely Zaida's Master of Blades made a deal with the Seanchan Empire.
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  #537  
Old 07-22-2011, 02:37 PM
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Default "Elayne the Unjust"

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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
The 3 houses would have been bankrupted if they paid the ransoms, which they didn't:
Elayne was not Queen, when those Ransoms were given out. Elayne literally was not Queen, when the alleged "crimes" occurred.

Quote:
"On this day, Houses Sarand, Marne and Arawn are stripped of title and estate, their lands forfeit to the Crown in retribution for their crimes."
Elayne's sentences are unjust, by Andoran standards.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
When Mordrellen's House of Mantear won an Andoran war to rule as Queen, the House of Norwelyn was not destroyed by a ransom nor fine, after the fact.

The House of Norwelyn remained a powerful Major Noble House, after Mordrellen's House of Mantear Succession to the Rose Crown.

The House of Norwelyn is powerful enough, to have a whole river in Andor named after one of it's ruling members: Luan, the Luan River.
OK...your point being? Nobody claims it's customary for Houses to get ruined after not winning a Succession war. Not all of them take heavy loans in desperate attempt to win the throne.

Quote:
Incorrect. Each House needs to give its consent to grant a person the status of a High Seat. Be it, minor House or major House in Andor.

Take the House of Gilyard.
Elayne was very unhappy to Dyelin did not gain the consent of the Gilyard Minor Nobles & Advisors.
The House of Gilyard, can rebut Branlet Gilyard's open declaration for Elayne to be Queen of Andor.
Why? Because Branlet Gilyard never legally gained the majority consent of the wider House of Gilyard.
No, it's because he's not yet reached his majority due to being 13 years old or whatever his age was at the time. Nobody questions the fact that he's the High Seat.

Quote:
Pelivar Coelan, Aemlyn Carand, Arathelle Renshar's Houses are still playing Daes Dae’mar. They never wanted Elayne to rule as Queen.
Ditto Ellorien Traemane, Danine Candraed's Houses as neutrals.
Ditto Lir Baryn, Karind Anshar, Sylvase Caeren's Houses as pseudo-Allies.
Toss in a rebellion from within the House of Gilyard.
Ditto High Seat Jared Sarand's active stand against Elayne rule
Count'em that is Ten Major Andoran Houses in flux. Votes up for grabs.
Most of those already voted for Elayne, and this type of election is only held once, so it doesn't matter much. Of course they can start or rebellion, but they can't overthrow her through legal means. The Queen's mandate is for life.
  #539  
Old 07-22-2011, 07:23 PM
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Let's not forget the whole end of the world thing that is driving Elayne to force unity in Andor.

Does Elanye believe that the ends justify the means? Yes.

Will it help for TG? Yes, most likely.

Will the rest of Andor ever forget what she did to secure her power? No. Not ever.

She very well could end up dethroned and exiled for her actions, but it will probably be after TG, akin to her using the threat of the Borderland army to bring unity, if temporarily.

Worth putting on the vengeful tyrant hat to bring unity in Andor prior to TG? . . . RAFO.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:47 PM
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Default Elayne: To Blood Hell with Andoran High Seats Rights

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Originally Posted by JOS View Post
Let's not forget the whole end of the world thing that is driving Elayne to force unity in Andor.
High Seat Elayne's decision to use the Queen's Stables as her very own before she had a right to, did not have anything to do with that.

Elayne over-reached again.

Every House's High Seat who entered Caemlyn by Traveling Gateway would learn of Elayne claim of the Queen's Stables as her very own.


Quote:
On the eastern side of the palace and fronted on north and south by two-story-high stables of pure white stone, the Queen’s Stableyard traditionally was given over to the Queen’s personal horses and carriages, and she had hesitated over using it before the Lion Throne was acknowledged hers. The steps that led to the throne were as delicate as any court dance, and if the dance sometimes came to resemble a tavern brawl, you still had to make your steps with grace and precision in order to gain your goal. Claiming the perquisites before being confirmed had cost some women their chance to rule. In the end, she had decided it was not a transgression that would make her seem over-proud. Besides, the Queen’s Stableyard was relatively small and had no other use. There were fewer people to keep away from an opening gateway here. In fact, when she entered it, the stone-paved yard was empty apart from a single red-coated groom standing in one of the arched stable doorways, but he turned to give a shout inside, and dozens more came spilling out as she guided Fireheart clear of the marked-off square. After all, she might have returned with an entourage of powerful lords and ladies, or perhaps they just hoped she had.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 11 “Talk of Debts” – Elayne point of view

Another High Seat, Ellorien has good reason to believe Elayne is abusing her position as a High Seat....

  • Use of Queen's Stables, as her own
  • Granting four Borderlander rulers & army a path through Andor, like a Queen
  • Creating illegal ransoms, like a Queen.

Each act done, while Elayne was simply an Andoran High Seat. Elayne over reached, her authority and status.

Both High Seats Pelivar, Ellorien possess eyes & ears in the city of Caemlyn, each know for sure Elayne has in fact over reached and has claimed the "perquisites before being confirmed" Queen.

Bluntly, Elayne has stated through her actions she already is Queen. To Bloody Hell, with the sovereign voice and authority of any other Andoran High Seat. Pelivar, Ellorien each would note these injustices.

Respect.


Who ultimately holds a group of four Andoran High Seat by oath/vow?

Rand al'Thor does, of Abelle, Luan, Ellorien, Dyelin. (See LoC, Chapter 16 "Tellings of the Wheel")
 


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