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  #581  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:05 PM
the_collective the_collective is offline
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Also, is it just me or is the post in question still there?
It's not just you. I can see the unmentionable word as clear as day. I'd quote it to prove it to you, but I'm no fool.
  #582  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:31 PM
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I can't see "see you next Tuesday" any more, nor even my quotation of it, but I can still see my response to Terez.
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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  #583  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Jumping in to defend him, the rules thread used to state "we don't care about profanity", hence why I used a swear word in a friendly way in my response to Terez.
As I said in the rule thread - profanity, don't care. Derogatory words, different story. That falls into the flame category, where there are no strict rules - just mod discretion. (In other words, best err on the side of caution.) I imagine most would be in agreement with Ishara on that particular word, since it's almost always used as an insult; I thought about editing the posts myself, but then decided I didn't care. (Also, see rule #1.)
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  #584  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:23 PM
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i don't care about words, but this place is boring and stupid when you're not around. even though i mostly lurk, well, there's no good lurking around these parts these days.

i had a feeling this thread would lead that way.

but enjoy life. i've heard it's better on the outside. i don't believe it, but i've heard it.
  #585  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:12 PM
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The post in question belonged to Bix, not you Zombie.
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  #586  
Old 08-03-2011, 01:24 PM
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Default Nakomi

There have been many discussions about Nakomi, who she might be, etc.

From Tamyrlin's original review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Oh, and of course we cannot forget Nakomi, which I believe is somehow connected to TAR.
I don't recall much said about this. From what I recall, much of the discussion around Nakomi dealt with Compulsion to describe various inconsistencies.

Listening to the audiobook, so much of that scene screamed "TAR". Food cooking too quickly, sign of her vanishing after she "goes to take care of nature's call". I do not think any compulsion would be required. If needed, "Nakomi" could influence how Aviendha thought in the dream.

I think it fairly certain this all occurred in TAR. If so then:

1) Someone pulled her in, and perhaps disguised themselves as "Nakomi". (For whatever purpose - as discussed in various places).

2) She found herself in the Dream (perhaps the usage of the training ter'angreal made this possible, or "the pattern did it"), and she experienced what she "needed" (ie, Nakomi may not have been real at all).

Either way, her concern for the future likely influenced her in deciding to play with the columns after using them the first time.

Has the second possibility been discussed? Or is that simply not an interesting discussion?
  #587  
Old 08-03-2011, 01:30 PM
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So a simple search of the forums for the word Nakomi brought up the following.

Happy reading.

Aviendha/ Future

The Faces of Nakomi

The Column Ter'angreal

What can Aviendha do differently? We know she tried and failed

Aviendha, the Aiel Remnant, and the Future of Randland

My Nakomi Theory/ Faction
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  #588  
Old 08-03-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
So a simple search of the forums for the word Nakomi brought up the following.

Happy reading.
Yes. I know. But nothing I saw (though I may have missed it) discussed the possibly of the Nakomi interaction occurring in TAR.

There is discussion of who could know how to hide their channeling, how compulsion may be been used, etc.

In TAR, you do not need to be able channel to influence people, or manipulate the Dream. Which means if Nakomi was a real person, she would not necessarily need to have been a channeller. And if she was, and knew what she was doing, she could have simply manipulated Aviendha into not seeing she could channel. So wouldn't necessarily need to know how to hide her ability with the OP.

Or she may not have been a real person at all, but a creation of Aviendha's in the Dream.
  #589  
Old 08-03-2011, 02:25 PM
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Or an apparition created by a powerful Need.
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  #590  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
2) She found herself in the Dream (perhaps the usage of the training ter'angreal made this possible, or "the pattern did it"), and she experienced what she "needed" (ie, Nakomi may not have been real at all).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Or an apparition created by a powerful Need.
Yes. That is one of the possibilities.

I admit, I did not search the old forums or archives, only the current ones, but I do not recall any discussions for the case that this all happened in TAR.
  #591  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:36 PM
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Default Where is the Creator?

Throughout the Wheel of Time books we have a very definitive presence of the Dark One. He talks to the Forsaken and to darkfriends, he resurrects the Chosen and it is generally thought that Shaidar Haran is actually the embodiment of the Dark One. The bad guys know very well the wishes and desires of their master.

My question is, where is the Creator? Other than sealing the Dark One at the moment of creation, it seems like he is completely absent from the world. Sure there are good guys but you dont really see the creator bringing HIS followers back to life.

Any thoughts?
  #592  
Old 08-03-2011, 03:38 PM
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Default TAR/Wise Ones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
Yes. I know. But nothing I saw (though I may have missed it) discussed the possibly of the Nakomi interaction occurring in TAR.

There is discussion of who could know how to hide their channeling, how compulsion may be been used, etc.

In TAR, you do not need to be able channel to influence people, or manipulate the Dream. Which means if Nakomi was a real person, she would not necessarily need to have been a channeller. And if she was, and knew what she was doing, she could have simply manipulated Aviendha into not seeing she could channel. So wouldn't necessarily need to know how to hide her ability with the OP.

Or she may not have been a real person at all, but a creation of Aviendha's in the Dream.
I pushed the idea here:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=4322

Although, I haven't written out the entire theory yet (plan to catalog the support during my re-read), but I believe the Nakomi/Aviendha moment occurred in TAR or a VirtualDream. I hadn't considered the idea that Aviendha pulled Nakomi into such a dream, from a Need perspective, interesting thought.
  #593  
Old 08-03-2011, 04:06 PM
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Default Nakomi is Jenn Aiel, 'the only true dedicated'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Or an apparition created by a powerful Need.
Or an true Aiel woman;
a woman who has accepted what Rand al'Thor said to be true;
a woman who has sought to once again follow the ancient ways;
a woman who has lived among the Tuatha'an (also called Lost Ones, Tinkers or Traveling People depending on native origin or education of individual);
a woman who has learn a Tuatha'an way of cooking.


When many shouted "No", others accepted this truth silently, then walk away to join the many Tuatha'an bands found across the Waste.
Quote:
“I saw the Age of Legends,” Rand announced, “and the beginning of the Aiel journey to the Three-fold Land.” Rhuarc caught his arm, but he shook the clan chief off. This moment had been fated since the Aiel gathered before Rhuidean the first time. “I saw the Aiel when they were called the Da’shain Aiel, and followed the Way of the Leaf.”

“No!” The shout rose from out in the canyon and spread in a roar. “No! No!” From thousands of throats. Spearpoints shaken in the air caught the sunlight. Even some of the Taardad sept chiefs were shouting. Adelin stared up at Rand, stricken. Mat shouted something at Rand, lost in the thunder, waving urgently for him to take his saddle.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 57 "A Breaking in Three-fold Lands" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with thousands & thousand at the Golden Bowl

Nakomi abandoned Clan, Sept, Society to re-create or to become what the Da'Shain once were. Nakomi is honoring her ancestor's vows.

Quote:
Apparently, Bair had already put the matter out of her mind. “There are more Lost Ones in the Three-fold Land than I can ever remember before,” she said to the tent at large. That was what the Aiel had always called the Tinkers, the Tuatha’an.

“They flee the troubles beyond the Dragonwall.” The sneer in Melaine’s voice was clear.

“I have heard,” Amys said slowly, “that some of those who run after the bleakness have gone to the Lost Ones and asked to be taken in.” A long silence followed. They knew now that the Tuatha’an had the same descent as themselves, that they had broken away before the Aiel crossed the Spine of the World into the Waste, but if anything the knowledge had only deepened their aversion.

“He brings change,” Melaine whispered harshly into the steam.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 5 "Among the Wise Ones" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Moiraine, Aviendha, Bair, Amys, Melaine
Quote:
Moiraine took a sip of wine. “The Old Tongue is often difficult to translate.” Egwene stared at her. The Old Tongue? What about the rings, the ter’angreal? But Moiraine went blithely on. “Tel’aran’rhiod means the World of Dreams, or perhaps the Unseen World. Neither is really exact; it is more complex than that. Aan’allein. One Man, but also The Man Who Is an Entire People, and two or three other ways to translate it as well. And the words we have taken for common use, and never think of their meanings in the Old Tongue. Warders are called ‘Gaidin,’ which was ‘brothers to battle.’ Aes Sedai meant ‘servant of all.’ And ‘Aiel’. ‘Dedicated,’ in the Old Tongue. Stronger than that; it implies an oath written into your bones. I have often wondered what the Aiel are dedicated to.” The Wise Ones’ faces had gone to iron, but Moiraine continued. “And ‘Jenn Aiel’. ‘The true dedicated,’ but again stronger. Perhaps ‘the only true dedicated.’ The only true Aiel?” She looked at them questioningly, just as if they did not suddenly have eyes of stone. None of them spoke.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 23 "Beyond the Stone" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Moiraine, Amys, Bair, Melaine, Seana

Who is Nakomi? Which group does Nakomi consider herself apart of now?


The Jenn Aiel, 'the only true dedicated'



What once was, has come to again: The Jenn Aiel.
  #594  
Old 08-03-2011, 04:06 PM
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Default Ha. Didn't check the archived threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
I pushed the idea here:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=4322

Although, I haven't written out the entire theory yet (plan to catalog the support during my re-read), but I believe the Nakomi/Aviendha moment occurred in TAR or a VirtualDream. I hadn't considered the idea that Aviendha pulled Nakomi into such a dream, from a Need perspective, interesting thought.
Thanks for that.

Assumption 1: This all happens in TAR.
Assumption 2: The purpose of this event was to cause Aviendha to consider tinkering with the columns, or try them a second time (that is a major assumption )

For #1. Did Verin have a ter'angreal for entering TAR?

For #2. If a wise one was behind this, then she must have "Dreamed" that this was needed -- ie. Pulling Aviendha into TAR, and interacting with her. Something that they considered evil...

Another possibility is that the pattern needed her to do it. Aviendha's time with the teaching ter'angreal made her open to slipping into TAR for more than an instant, and she had a great Need which caused a Dream to occur to guide her (that is Nakomi may not be a real person).

I look forward to reading your theory.
  #595  
Old 08-04-2011, 07:31 PM
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Default Trollocs for the Light? Be it, Mutiny or Loyalty?

Dissension, Rebellion, Treason, Mutiny--Loyalty?


Can Trollocs fight for the Light?
Can Trollocs abandon their ties to the Shadow?
How many Trollocs can a Chosen command at once by Dreaming it?

Will Ogiers & some faction of Trollocs fight together against an enemy? Be it, groups of Sharan Ogiers and Trollocs against the Light or Westlander Ogiers and one of Mierin's merry bands of Trollocs against the Shadow?


If a given World's realm of Dream and Flesh are one, e.g. Earth as of AMoL book, how does this effect messaging Trollocs by Dreaming commands?


If a Chosen applies or draws a Dragon's Fang upon a group of Trollocs, what does this do? (Thinking of the time, Mierin applied a Dragon's Fang to Rand at Falme)
Quote:
“You have been marked , but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.”


The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 9 "Decisions" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear in the Stone
Being Marked typically gives a degree of control to the maker?
  #596  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaas View Post
Throughout the Wheel of Time books we have a very definitive presence of the Dark One. He talks to the Forsaken and to darkfriends, he resurrects the Chosen and it is generally thought that Shaidar Haran is actually the embodiment of the Dark One. The bad guys know very well the wishes and desires of their master.

My question is, where is the Creator? Other than sealing the Dark One at the moment of creation, it seems like he is completely absent from the world. Sure there are good guys but you dont really see the creator bringing HIS followers back to life.

Any thoughts?
The Creator isn't around because he doesn't interfere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Melbourne book signing 28 August 1999 - Raf Kaplan reporting

Someone asked him about the Creator...he gave the distinct impression that he wouldn't even contemplate havng the Creator step in, nor is there any real Creator worship, because there is no need, the effects of the Creator are all around the citizens of Randland. I believe he's said that much previously. He quoted Terry Pratchett (from Mort, I think) regarding the way belief works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.
  #597  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:18 PM
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Hi all! Just a friendly neighbourhood reminder that questions that pertain to issues being discussed in live threads will be moved there from this thread at the moderators' discretion, okay? Don't be upset, just carry on your discussions in the relevant discussion thread(s) and we'll keep one-off question/ answers here.
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  #598  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:38 PM
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And our discretion is quite wide in such cases.

EDIT: Note, I broke out the Avi & Nakomi Dreamer scenario into its own thread...feels like there's enough there for a valid discussion IMHO.
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  #599  
Old 08-15-2011, 04:29 PM
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I've recently purchased New Spring, my local bookstore has only just got it in stock. Doing a read-through and I've noticed one scene in Chapter 7: The Itch when describing items in Kerene's room.
Quote:
A blacksmith's hammer with the head split in two lay next to a cracked wooden bowl that held a single fat firedrop, fine enough to grace a crown.
I'm just to curious if anyone else thinks this could be further foreshadowing to Perrin gaining a crown, be it of Two Rivers or even the Broken Crown? It just minds me of the Perrin singing in high-chant whilst wearing a crown possible foreshadow.
  #600  
Old 08-15-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kielbasaj View Post
I've recently purchased New Spring, my local bookstore has only just got it in stock. Doing a read-through and I've noticed one scene in Chapter 7: The Itch when describing items in Kerene's room.

I'm just to curious if anyone else thinks this could be further foreshadowing to Perrin gaining a crown, be it of Two Rivers or even the Broken Crown? It just minds me of the Perrin singing in high-chant whilst wearing a crown possible foreshadow.
The fact that the hammer is broken in two might also hint at something, perhaps Perrin's death. I think that's more likely than him gaining a crown at this stage; the firedrop being good enough for a crown might just hint at glory, if it is foreshadow.
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
 


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