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  #741  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Have you reversed your position? If it's not a title taken from prophecy, it must just be something that was assigned to the leader of the time. If that's the case then Demandred did have a shot at being the Dragon.
Only in the same way that Lews Therin had a shot at being Demandred.
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  #742  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, but without a previous Dragon, then it's hard to claim that it's a title taken from prophecy.
It seems implied from various sources that there has been a Dragon in each repetitive turning of the Wheel to act as the Light's Champion. Whether there was a 2nd age prophecy regarding Lews Therin or not is speculation at this point.
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  #743  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:27 PM
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Given that the Karaethon Cycle prophecies that called for the rebirth of the Dragon(s) took place largely during LTT's lifetime, it seems that whatever circumstances granted LTT the name are largely moot. There might be other prophecies that made him the Dragon, and he might even be just a continuation in a long cycle, but we won't know because, well

... Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. Or so The Man says.

Myself, I see the Dragon and DO fading after the Last Battle, to be replaced by something else in the next cycle, perhaps an angel of Light against The Fain. Who knows?
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  #744  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Only in the same way that Lews Therin had a shot at being Demandred.
Well yeah, I think that's what we were arguing - that "Dragon" was a title given by the people much like "Demandred" (or any other Forsaken name). That's what I was arguing for, anyway.
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  #745  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Question: are there Ogier and Stedding in the Land of the Madmen?
Probably, but I know of no reference either way
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  #746  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
But Graendal explicitly states that he could have been the Dragon, not "The top general for the Light" or any such. I'm afraid I'm firmly with The Unreasoner here; whether or not Lews Therin was destined to be The Dragon, it looks like the name was a title bestowed.
What Greandal believed to be true and what the Pattern wove for LTT and Demandred are not necessarily the same thing.

As far as we know, Heros of the Horn are not prophecied every time they are spun out, but they are spun out to perform certain specific (corrective) actions to keep the Pattern on track. We do know that LTT is a HotH and that he was spun out at the end of the second age to do something "heroic" -- leader of the forces of light would seem to be part and parcel of his heroic destiny.

We have no evidence that Demandred is a HotH -- and, iirc, an RJ quote suggesting that he could NOT be because thereare no Evil Heros.

Greandal may sincerely believe that Demandred had a chance at being named Dragon, but that was not Demandred's place in the Pattern.
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  #747  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:56 PM
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Greandal may sincerely believe that Demandred had a chance at being named Dragon, but that was not Demandred's place in the Pattern.
Well, aside from the fact that 'Dragon' may be an entirely arbitrary title (in another turning, Rand's soul may be called the Lion, or the Lobster, or the Unicorn; and future Third Age incarnations the Lion/Lobster/Unicorn Reborn), does this even matter? Forget the pretestined vs. free will element too. For now, as I could speak on that later.

But Demandred competing for the title and Demandred having any chance of obtaining it are two different things.
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  #748  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
What Greandal believed to be true and what the Pattern wove for LTT and Demandred are not necessarily the same thing.

As far as we know, Heros of the Horn are not prophecied every time they are spun out, but they are spun out to perform certain specific (corrective) actions to keep the Pattern on track. We do know that LTT is a HotH and that he was spun out at the end of the second age to do something "heroic" -- leader of the forces of light would seem to be part and parcel of his heroic destiny.

We have no evidence that Demandred is a HotH -- and, iirc, an RJ quote suggesting that he could NOT be because thereare no Evil Heros.

Greandal may sincerely believe that Demandred had a chance at being named Dragon, but that was not Demandred's place in the Pattern.
Yeah, as The Unreasoner said I'm unsure what we're actually disagreeing on. No-one's suggesting that Demandred could actually become the Chosen One (as unidentified caps lock voice called Rand), only that he had a shot - in the "if he'd only tried that little bit harder", "free will does exist" way - at being the head of the armies of the Light, who logic suggests was named Dragon. So if Demandred had tried harder he could have become Dragon.

I mean, who's to say that in one turning or another this didn't actually happen? Lews Therin could have gone over to the Shadow (as we know has happened) or tripped down the stairs, or choked on his soup, or been late for work that day, and Barid Bel Medar gets named Dragon. That wouldn't change the essential importance of Lews Therin over Demandred or suddenly make Demandred the Chosen One, but it would make him Dragon.

In other news, I think this argument has become semantic.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Probably, but I know of no reference either way.
I was actually going to differ with you on a logical basis. We know that the Land of Madmen is full of insane male channellers and less than reasonable female channellers. We also know that the land is in constant turmoil because of this. I'd suggest that if there were any Stedding, they're either so high up in the mountains as to be virtually inaccessible, or beneath the ocean by now. We also know that without Stedding, Ogier die from the longing, so if there aren't any Stedding there aren't any Ogier. The possible counter is that time spent in Stedding might extend the amount of time the titular Madmen have for channelling up destruction, but we know of the difficulties with that idea from Moiraine's comments in TEOTW, as well. I would have to say no, or if there were any, they're by now inaccessible.
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  #749  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
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No-one's suggesting that Demandred could actually become the Chosen One (as unidentified caps lock voice called Rand)
Well, Terez thinks that the voice meant Moridin, but that's a technicality, really.

Anyway, you get the point. I'm not sure if Barid Bel Medar's soul ever was the champion though. Or the top general. I don't have a good reason why at the moment, but I'd like to point out that these are in fact different discussions.
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  #750  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:35 PM
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... only that he had a shot - in the "if he'd only tried that little bit harder", "free will does exist" way - at being the head of the armies of the Light, ...
Demandred had the same chance of being named Dragon as Mazrim Taim hsd of being the Dragon Reborn. The reason Taimandred was so appealing was the similarities betwqeen Demandred and azrim Taim -- both feel they have been cheated of glory they deserve and turned to the Shadow becuase the Shadow promises they can haave the glory denied to them by Fate.
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  #751  
Old 10-28-2011, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I was actually going to differ with you on a logical basis. We know that the Land of Madmen is full of insane male channellers and less than reasonable female channellers. We also know that the land is in constant turmoil because of this. I'd suggest that if there were any Stedding, they're either so high up in the mountains as to be virtually inaccessible, or beneath the ocean by now. We also know that without Stedding, Ogier die from the longing, so if there aren't any Stedding there aren't any Ogier. The possible counter is that time spent in Stedding might extend the amount of time the titular Madmen have for channelling up destruction, but we know of the difficulties with that idea from Moiraine's comments in TEOTW, as well. I would have to say no, or if there were any, they're by now inaccessible.
Channeling doesn't work in a Stedding so that would protect them to a certain degree and the Seanchan Ogier don't seem to suffer from the longing either. Chances are that there would indeed be Stedding and Ogier in the land of the madmen, but they are likely to be in very remote places.
  #752  
Old 10-28-2011, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Demandred had the same chance of being named Dragon as Mazrim Taim hsd of being the Dragon Reborn. The reason Taimandred was so appealing was the similarities betwqeen Demandred and azrim Taim -- both feel they have been cheated of glory they deserve and turned to the Shadow becuase the Shadow promises they can haave the glory denied to them by Fate.
I think what it really boils down to is whether you think "Dragon" is a name given to a specific soul or a title given to anyone who fits the bill. "Dragon Reborn" pretty obviously is the first. But if Rand as Dragon Reborn had gone over to the Shadow during TEOTW or TGH (or even later) and Mazrim Taim had been the man to step up to the plate and decide the war wasn't over yet and lead the Light to a glorious draw, he would certainly be a great hero, but certainly not the Dragon Reborn - that would still be Rand. The question is whether "Dragon" refers specifically to the soul called Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al'Thor or not. If not, then if LTT had gone over to the Shadow at some point during the War of the Power and Demandred had become leader of the Light's forces and led them to a glorious draw* then he might have wound up being named Dragon.

This might even be the very reason the Wheel spins out individuals like Taim and Demandred; with that random factor of the DO in play, it can't be sure that the Chosen One will do what must be done, so it installs a backup, or even a couple of backups. I'm almost convinced that at some point there is a turning where LTT swears to the Shadow right away, Elan Morin becomes leader of the Light's forces, and Barid Bel Medar still becomes Demandred. It sort of coincides with a semi-idea I've had that the Forsaken might actually themselves be Heroes of the Horn, that basically what matters and is needed are great deeds, whether those great deeds be good or evil.

*which is essentially what LTT did, btw
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  #753  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:06 AM
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THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and – could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?
I think that the DO would have disagreed with Graendal about Demandred's chances of becoming the Dragon. On the other hand, I also doubt the DO would have revealed that type of knowledge to anyone, so humans wouldn't have been aware of that.

Then there is the fact that in various Turnings of the Wheel things go subtly different. So Barid Bel Medar (Demandred) might indeed have been the official leader of the Light in some cases, with Lews Therin as his second in command. If Lews Therin then still led a raid on Shayol Ghul, the main flow of history would've remained the same.
It would be interesting to know whether or not either of them then would have gotten the title "Dragon".
  #754  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:12 AM
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I think that the DO would have disagreed with Graendal about Demandred's chances of becoming the Dragon. On the other hand, I also doubt the DO would have revealed that type of knowledge to anyone, so humans wouldn't have been aware of that.

Then there is the fact that in various Turnings of the Wheel things go subtly different. So Barid Bel Medar (Demandred) might indeed have been the official leader of the Light in some cases, with Lews Therin as his second in command. If Lews Therin then still led a raid on Shayol Ghul, the main flow of history would've remained the same.
It would be interesting to know whether or not either of them then would have gotten the title "Dragon".
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"Which ancient enemy is that, Great Lord? You, er, seem to have several. Was it the otter? Or the unicorn?"

"NO, NOT THOSE ANCIENT ENEMIES."

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"NO, NO! NOT THOSE. THE ONE CALLED DRAGON!"
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  #755  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:16 AM
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The DO's own words basically imply that his enemy is always called "Dragon" regardless of the turning. I would guess that the names Dragon and Shai'tan do not change with each turning regardless of any other titles piled up on each.
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  #756  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:43 AM
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The DO's own words basically imply that his enemy is always called "Dragon" regardless of the turning. I would guess that the names Dragon and Shai'tan do not change with each turning regardless of any other titles piled up on each.
They imply nothing of the sort. All they are doing is clarifying that the Dragon is who the DO is actually on about for Demandred. RJ put that in for that reason, so that we wouldn't be wondering who the "ancient enemy" is for books and books, and so that Demandred wouldn't be doing the same. It doesn't suggest even for a moment that the Dragon is always the Dragon, it just suggests that he is currently known by that name and that's who the DO is talking about.
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  #757  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:21 AM
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But why would the DO refer to LTT as "my ancient enemy" when that fellow is only one single day older than the person being addressed (Demandred)?

Does Demandred consider himself ancient now, too?

It makes a lot more sense to think this enmity is far older, and dates from previous Turnings of the Wheel.
  #758  
Old 10-28-2011, 08:30 AM
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But why would the DO refer to LTT as "my ancient enemy" when that fellow is only one single day older than the person being addressed (Demandred)?

Does Demandred consider himself ancient now, too?

It makes a lot more sense to think this enmity is far older, and dates from previous Turnings of the Wheel.
The enmity obviously is* but there's no indication in what the DO says that the name "Dragon" is at all. He could just as easily have said, "DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED AL'THOR" or "LEWS THERIN" as "DRAGON"**. If he'd said "DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE WHO HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALLED DRAGON" or something along those lines you'd have an argument, but that's not what he said. All he indicated was that the enemy was called Dragon, clearing things up for Demandred and for us.

Look at it another way: it would essentially have to be a PLE for the Chosen One soul to always be called Dragon regardless of turning and circumstances. On the other hand, it seems very likely that the people of the Second Age had a similar understanding of what a dragon was as we do today, i.e. a powerful, fire-breathing, magical beast of extreme ferocity and power. In need of both a great leader to win a desperate war for survival and a talisman to hold off an evil beyond understanding, they seized on the concept of the dragon and gave that name to the man best placed to lead them to victory, hence Lews Therin became the dragon. But if LTT had died or gone over to the Shadow, would they have given him the same name? They might, or they might have given him a different name and assigned the name "Dragon" to the person best placed to be able to defeat him, who might well have been Demandred.

That doesn't change the fact that Demandred would have led the Light to a glorious draw, and it doesn't mean the Third Age of Randland would be looking forward to the Demandred Reborn (or whatever); rather, I expect they'd be living in dread of a terrible prophecy of doom that said LTT would rise again to lead the Shadow to true victory, but with a tiny glimmer of hope that the man reborn would not be the man who died, and that he might yet deliver the world into Light - which would actually in itself make a pretty interesting story if it weren't so close to what we already have. The name doesn't change the fundamental concept, though; that concept is the Chosen One***, and that's the guy who always gets reborn.

*Also, by that stage both Demandred and LTT are pretty ancient by anyone's standards
**The DO ALWAYS talks in caps lock. Shut up.
***I am aware of the arguments against the voice being the Creator or using this name to refer to Rand, but it is a convenient shorthand.
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  #759  
Old 10-28-2011, 08:48 AM
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Also, by that stage both Demandred and LTT are pretty ancient by anyone's standards
Ancient to mortals maybe but not to a being such as the DO for whom time is endless. Ancient implies a long long time even for him. There is no reason to assume that a PLE has not occurred to maintain this name when we know for a fact that there have been plenty of PLEs just in the time Rand has been active. In fact, PLEs seem to surround the Dragon soul.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Ancient to mortals maybe but not to a being such as the DO for whom time is endless. Ancient implies a long long time even for him. There is no reason to assume that a PLE has not occurred to maintain this name when we know for a fact that there have been plenty of PLEs just in the time Rand has been active. In fact, PLEs seem to surround the Dragon soul.
It would be a pretty mundane PLE. Also, the fact that Demandred and LTT are ancient is not my main point; the fact that the DO does not say the name is ancient is.
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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