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  #761  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It would be a pretty mundane PLE. Also, the fact that Demandred and LTT are ancient is not my main point; the fact that the DO does not say the name is ancient is.
I think its a good question for Brandon & Maria:

Q. Is the Champion of the Light always known as "Dragon" or does the name change with turnings of the Wheel?
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  #762  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:11 AM
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I think its a good question for Brandon & Maria:

Q. Is the Champion of the Light always known as "Dragon" or does the name change with turnings of the Wheel?
That would be a good question, but it wouldn't settle the debate necessarily. It'd have to be something like "When Graendal said Demandred had a shot at being Dragon, what did she mean?"
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  #763  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
That would be a good question, but it wouldn't settle the debate necessarily. It'd have to be something like "When Graendal said Demandred had a shot at being Dragon, what did she mean?"
That would probably get RAFOed...
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  #764  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:15 AM
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That would probably get RAFOed...
Yeah. I'm seeing Brandon at the end of next month so I'm trying to figure out some questions to ask, but avoid ones that will get RAFO'd. I feel like anything too open ended will be.
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  #765  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I think its a good question for Brandon & Maria:

Q. Is the Champion of the Light always known as "Dragon" or does the name change with turnings of the Wheel?
Check the interview database. IIRC, RJ already answered that question.

Part of the answer involved whether or not the champion was always male. (No)
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  #766  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Check the interview database. IIRC, RJ already answered that question.

Part of the answer involved whether or not the champion was always male. (No)
All I could find was various stuff that said the champion was always male, always the same soul. In any case, I'm not exactly arguing that the Champion would be a different soul, just that someone else could become the champion of the Light if (in the most likely example) the Dragon went over to the Shadow, and that in the right circumstances they might be known as Dragon. Knowing if the Champion is always called "Dragon" would help settle this question to some extent, though.
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  #767  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Check the interview database. IIRC, RJ already answered that question.

Part of the answer involved whether or not the champion was always male. (No)
I thought the answer to that specific question was 'yes.'

Anyway, again, Demandred competing for something and Demandred having any chance (at all) of getting it are not necessarily the same thing.

If I wanted to get extremely technical, I could point out that knowledge of what he is competing for isn't really necessary either.
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  #768  
Old 10-28-2011, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I think what it really boils down to is whether you think "Dragon" is a name given to a specific soul or a title given to anyone who fits the bill.
The name "Dragon" is (according to RJ) particular to this Turning. We refer to "The Dragon Soul" as shorthand for the singular HotH soul reborn according to Prophecy and spun out in the second age as LTT.

In Greandal's POV, substitute "LTT's title" for "Dragon." Whatever title LTT wound up with, Demandred's fate was to come in second and turn to the Shadow to gain what he couldn't gain following the light.

You're advancing the same argument Mazrim Taim gave Rand when told he missed his chance by not being born in the right time and place. Both of you are both right and wrong.

History/Legend/Myth will indeed embroider the origins and ancestry of the Chose One to fit any Prophecy not obviously fulfilled by an unbiased telling of the facts. But the Wheel and Pattern will not permit 3000+ years of breeding and manipulation to be derailed so just anyone can fill the Chosen One's role.
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  #769  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:17 PM
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Well, better to be right and wrong than just wrong, I suppose. Me and Zombie seem to diverge on the issue of Demandred maybe saving the day in some turning (I think Rand's reborn soul would still be the Chosen One even if he turned. Which isn't to say Demandred couldn't be a hero. But it would be more in the way Paitar could have been a hero).
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  #770  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
All I could find was various stuff that said the champion was always male, always the same soul.
The "Dragon" is always the same soul, but is NOT always the "Champion of the Light." See RJ's comment about a "Femeale Dragon" -- IIRC, "if there was a need for a female to savve the World, there is a female Soul to fill that role; She was present at Falme"

The point you're missing is that it wasn't the specific word Dragon that Demandred coveted, it was LTT's position -- which was pre-ordained by the Pattern. Demandred didn't even covet the position on it's own merits, he coveted it because LTT had it.

Greandal may believe Demandred's claim to being barely edged out by LTT, but Demandred had zero chance of taking LTT's place
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  #771  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Well, better to be right and wrong than just wrong, I suppose. Me and Zombie seem to diverge on the issue of Demandred maybe saving the day in some turning (I think Rand's reborn soul would still be the Chosen One even if he turned. Which isn't to say Demandred couldn't be a hero. But it would be more in the way Paitar could have been a hero).
RJ said he could see no point to "evil heros" so both Demandred and Paitr would seem to be disqualified.
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  #772  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
"if there was a need for a female to savve the World, there is a female Soul to fill that role; She was present at Falme"
I forgot about that. Smart money's on Egwene, but I'm crossing my fingers for Nynaeve. And I would make a small side bet on Lanfear.
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  #773  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
The "Dragon" is always the same soul, but is NOT always the "Champion of the Light." See RJ's comment about a "Femeale Dragon" -- IIRC, "if there was a need for a female to savve the World, there is a female Soul to fill that role; She was present at Falme"

The point you're missing is that it wasn't the specific word Dragon that Demandred coveted, it was LTT's position -- which was pre-ordained by the Pattern. Demandred didn't even covet the position on it's own merits, he coveted it because LTT had it.

Greandal may believe Demandred's claim to being barely edged out by LTT, but Demandred had zero chance of taking LTT's place
Well, Hawkwing did add this little nugget...

tGH Ch 47:

Quote:
"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.
Which sort of begs another question. Does Mat need to retrieve not just the Horn, but also need to locate the original banner as well to use it again?
  #774  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
RJ said he could see no point to "evil heros" so both Demandred and Paitr would seem to be disqualified.
King Paitar is probably not evil.

But I meant more, 'the guy who saves the day', not a HotH.
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  #775  
Old 10-28-2011, 09:47 PM
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Which sort of begs another question. Does Mat need to retrieve not just the Horn, but also need to locate the original banner as well to use it again?
If I recall, it was explicitly stated in the books that there is no mention of the Horn in any of the prophecies. It seems unlikely that this is some sort of conspiracy, and more probable that the Horn is simply his ta'veren nature giving Mat what he needs to be in the right place at the right time - which I'm speculating to be directly in the middle of an assault on the White Tower by the Seanchan.

I would imagine he's going to be... or at least motivate the union of the Seanchan to the Dragon's cause, fulfilling prophecy and removing the final obstacle to Rand's chances of success against the Shadow.
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  #776  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
If I recall, it was explicitly stated in the books that there is no mention of the Horn in any of the prophecies. It seems unlikely that this is some sort of conspiracy, and more probable that the Horn is simply his ta'veren nature giving Mat what he needs to be in the right place at the right time - which I'm speculating to be directly in the middle of an assault on the White Tower by the Seanchan.

I would imagine he's going to be... or at least motivate the union of the Seanchan to the Dragon's cause, fulfilling prophecy and removing the final obstacle to Rand's chances of success against the Shadow.
There is a bit of a problem with this issue as to whether or not mention of it was made in the Karaethon Cycle. The assumption that it is not seems to mostly come from this aside by Rand in tGH Ch 20:

Quote:
He wished he knew more of the Prophecies of the Dragon. The one time he had heard a merchant's guard telling a part of it, back in Emond's Field, Nynaeve had broken a broom across the man's shoulders. None of the little he had heard mentioned the Horn of Valere.
Rand hadn't made much of a study of the Karaethon Cycle yet as this point, however. So what does his comment really mean? Is it not mentioned in the Karaethon Cycle, or just not in any section of which he was aware at this point in the narrative?

RJ however says this:

Quote:
TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.
This makes it sound like it was mentioned explicitly. Tuon and Turak also both were aware of the Horn and its importance. Indeed Tuon noted to Mat that finding the Horn and who sounded it was as important as finding and securing the Dragon. Perhaps it is also mentioned in the Essanik Cycle?

Regardless, it seems obvious that it will be used again, the question remains as to how. It wasn't used in AoL, but perhaps it should have been. Might it be needed in place of, and as an alternative to what was done before? Moreover, there is still the problem with the banner, which is what I was mainly alluding to earlier. We don't really know what happened to it. It was flying in Tear, but was replaced by Darlin in KoD with the silver crescents of Tear. Presumably Darlin still has it somewhere, nonetheless, its presence, at least according to Hawkwing, is imperative, as is apparently the Dragon. As such, it stands to reason that Mat needs to find the banner along with finding the Horn, and would also need to have Rand around when he blows it. Unless of course Rand is already dead, then presumably Rand could just be summoned alongside the rest of the spectral host. Which I suppose begs another question - does Rand really need to be alive in the final showdown, or is spectral Rand good enough to get the job done?
  #777  
Old 10-29-2011, 04:49 AM
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There is a bit of a problem with this issue as to whether or not mention of it was made in the Karaethon Cycle. The assumption that it is not seems to mostly come from this aside by Rand in tGH Ch 20:
It actually comes from the conversation that Moiraine had with Vandene in TGH 22. However, there's nothing to say there wasn't a Foretelling about it (there were some Foretellings not part of the KC that were known only to Aes Sedai, and apparently one of these said that the Horn must be found before the Last Battle).
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  #778  
Old 10-30-2011, 06:36 PM
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2 questions after finishing my re-read of The Dragon Reborn.

1. While battling Ishamael in TAR, Rand cuts/splits the balefire with Callandor. Is that an effect of TAR, or can Callandor actually do that?

2. For nearly the whole time that the Aiel have had a major role to play (basically Shadow Rising onward), they say they follow the Cara'carn, not the Dragon Reborn. Yet, at the end of the book, the Dragon Reborn, when Rand announces who he is, the Tairens AND the Aiel both stop fighting and start shouting that the Dragon is Reborn. Is that an oversight, a taveren effect, or what?
  #779  
Old 10-30-2011, 06:42 PM
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1. While battling Ishamael in TAR, Rand cuts/splits the balefire with Callandor. Is that an effect of TAR, or can Callandor actually do that?
Good catch, I hadn't thought of that. My guess would be that Rand thought it could, so it could (in TAR, that is).
Of course, there are probably some people around here who figured it out years ago.
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  #780  
Old 10-30-2011, 06:50 PM
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Default Question on Balefire and TAR

This may have been asked and answered before

If a person is balefired are they also completely removed from the wheel. What I mean is this. If someone would use balefire on ... say ... Birgitte, would she exist in TAR or be removed from the pattern forever?

If so, what would happen if the Dragon was destroyed by balefire? Would the "dragon soul" cease to be?

Just a question that popped into my head. I am sure one or more of you know the answer.
 


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