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  #781  
Old 10-30-2011, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
2. For nearly the whole time that the Aiel have had a major role to play (basically Shadow Rising onward), they say they follow the Cara'carn, not the Dragon Reborn. Yet, at the end of the book, the Dragon Reborn, when Rand announces who he is, the Tairens AND the Aiel both stop fighting and start shouting that the Dragon is Reborn. Is that an oversight, a taveren effect, or what?
Although the Aiel follow the Car'a'carn, they are aware of the Dragon Reborn and his overall significance. That coupled with the ta'veren effect plus the fact that the Tairens were also shouting the same thing probably led to them calling that out - at the time they also didn't know Rand was the Car'a'carn, though I think they suspected (how fast it fades).

IRL, I suspect like many things in the first few books RJ just hadn't figure it out yet. It certainly looks like with the Aiel at least he hadn't decided exactly who they were and what they believed, such as the comment about the ageless face. People have come up with various no-prize explanations for why that's not an error, but I would guess that RJ simply changed his mind about many things as he wrote.
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #782  
Old 10-30-2011, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
This may have been asked and answered before

If a person is balefired are they also completely removed from the wheel. What I mean is this. If someone would use balefire on ... say ... Birgitte, would she exist in TAR or be removed from the pattern forever?

If so, what would happen if the Dragon was destroyed by balefire? Would the "dragon soul" cease to be?

Just a question that popped into my head. I am sure one or more of you know the answer.
RJ has said in interviews that the soul of someone who is balefired will still go back to the "soul pool" to be spun out in a new thread later. However, because that actually happened before the balefire-ing happened (because of the time-effect of balefire), the Dark One can't harvest the soul anymore, because he needs to catch it right after death.
How this would work for the Heroes, who's soul doesn't actually go in limbo, but hangs out in TAR... I have no idea.
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  #783  
Old 10-30-2011, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
This may have been asked and answered before

If a person is balefired are they also completely removed from the wheel. What I mean is this. If someone would use balefire on ... say ... Birgitte, would she exist in TAR or be removed from the pattern forever?

If so, what would happen if the Dragon was destroyed by balefire? Would the "dragon soul" cease to be?

Just a question that popped into my head. I am sure one or more of you know the answer.
There are several quotes on this from Brandon, but here is the definitive one from RJ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting
Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.
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  #784  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
I forgot about that. Smart money's on Egwene, but I'm crossing my fingers for Nynaeve. And I would make a small side bet on Lanfear.
You're assuming that the "she" is one of the "spun-out" souls that was present at Falme. He could have been referring to one of the 100 or so souls that answered the Horn's call. The pattern needed Rand this time, so his was the one that was spun out.
  #785  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:17 PM
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@Grig
Sure, I'm assuming. But for something this futile, why not?
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  #786  
Old 11-01-2011, 10:50 AM
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Because it's nowhere near the most intuitive answer? You have a gathering of souls tied to the Pattern called by the Horn, and you assume that one of the non-magical Pattern Souls are the "female to Save the World if that turning/Age requires a female" over the known bound-to-the-Wheel souls? That's almost Felix-level arguing that the Broken Wolf must be Valan Luca or some such. There are much more obvious likelihoods.

I mean, have at. Don't mean to kill your fun. Just had to point out the underlying assumptions for the peanut gallery, since I've been around the newsgroups and sites for long enough to see stray assumptions made unquestioned fanon without people picking them up realizing they are based on unfounded assumptions.
  #787  
Old 11-01-2011, 10:57 AM
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There are rather strong suspicions that Lan and Nynaeve are also Heroes.

If Nynaeve ever gets the idea of pulling the DO's braid instead of her own, then there's no stopping her ever again.
  #788  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:04 AM
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Felix level arguing? I'll take that as a compliment.

I wasn't really serious. And since the only female "magical soul" (your words) we know jack about is Birgitte (who I don't see ever being a Pattern level savior), guessing nynaeve or Egwene seems appropriate. Nynaeve seems to have it in her. As for Egwene, everything else has fallen into her lap, why not this too?

And why do you assume the soul in question wasn't a HotH spun out at the time?

ETA:
I agree with you that it is unsettling to let assumptions go by unchecked. If you look through my post history, that should be fairly clear.
But I never said anything as fact here. I just said it was a 'good bet' (more or less).
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Last edited by The Unreasoner; 11-01-2011 at 01:39 PM.
  #789  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:24 PM
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Are illnesses actively in the story? I mean other than Kari's death, wilders' first tries with the OP and Nynaeve's occasional thoughts of diseases she has treated. I can't remember any. There should be, considering how many Readers/Wisdoms/Wise Women there are.

What does PLE stand for?

Why are herons honored on the swords of master swordsmen?

Why has Valan Luca so often been mentioned as a way out of trouble?

Thief-catcher and thief-taker, what's the difference?

How long is an inch in Randland?
How long is a foot?
...a mile?
  #790  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden View Post
Are illnesses actively in the story? I mean other than Kari's death, wilders' first tries with the OP and Nynaeve's occasional thoughts of diseases she has treated. I can't remember any. There should be, considering how many Readers/Wisdoms/Wise Women there are.
Egwene suffered from breakbone fever as a child. Nynaeve healed her. I can't think of an example of someone actually getting sick in-story, other than Mat with the dagger (not quite what you were after) and Noam (a mental illness, perhaps?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden
What does PLE stand for?
Pattern Level Event. It basically means an event not accounted for by the usual rules of the world such as ta'veren, Wolfbrothers, or the Power, such as Rand appearing in the sky above Falme, or the events at the end of TEOTW, or what happened on Dragonmount. It's possible we might get a more detailed explanation for them in AMOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden
Why are herons honored on the swords of master swordsmen?
In the world of WOT, the person who invented the sword and first mastered fighting with it was not actually a person at all, but a heron. This is done to honour him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden
Why has Valan Luca so often been mentioned as a way out of trouble?
It's relatively easy to disguise yourself and hide with a travelling circus, avoiding notice and therefore trouble. This utility in avoiding trouble is also useful in avoiding anything else other than navel-gazing from happening, hence why sections involving Luca are so awfully, awfully, boring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden
Thief-catcher and thief-taker, what's the difference?
Authorial whimsy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oden
How long is an inch in Randland?
How long is a foot?
...a mile?
Twice half their length.

Okay, so you got one good answer out of me. Two, perhaps.
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #791  
Old 11-02-2011, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Pattern Level Event. It basically means an event not accounted for by the usual rules of the world such as ta'veren, Wolfbrothers, or the Power, such as Rand appearing in the sky above Falme, or the events at the end of TEOTW, or what happened on Dragonmount. It's possible we might get a more detailed explanation for them in AMOL.
I believe the actual terminology was made up at Theoryland, perhaps by the Boss, himself. I could be wrong--maybe it was coined by Brandon. The point is, I don't think it is something we're ever going to see referenced in-book, nor are we likely to get an explanation. The whole idea, IMO, is that it's a deus ex machina device when the Pattern needs something important to happen and the humans just aren't cooperating.

Quote:
In the world of WOT, the person who invented the sword and first mastered fighting with it was not actually a person at all, but a heron. This is done to honour him.
RJ wanted to use a crane, but the screenwriter of the Karate Kid wouldn't allow it.


Quote:
It's relatively easy to disguise yourself and hide with a travelling circus, avoiding notice and therefore trouble. This utility in avoiding trouble is also useful in avoiding anything else other than navel-gazing from happening, hence why sections involving Luca are so awfully, awfully, boring.
It's also because Valan Luca may or may not be the Savior of the World (or Saviour, if you prefer).
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  #792  
Old 11-02-2011, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
It's also because Valan Luca may or may not be the Savior of the World (or Saviour, if you prefer).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Essanik Cycle
He shall come in many forms, and he shall be many things, but for one he shall not be: he shall not be boring. For in boredom lies the seed of madness, and in madness, death, and the grave is the domain of he who shall not be named.
Valan Luca is therefore clearly NOT the Saviour of the World, as he is so deathly dull.
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #793  
Old 11-02-2011, 06:23 PM
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Is that really from the Essanik Cycle?
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  #794  
Old 11-02-2011, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Is that really from the Essanik Cycle?
...

No.

...
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Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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  #795  
Old 11-02-2011, 06:30 PM
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I didn't think so. But I wasn't 100% on it.
Hove some Youngling rep
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  #796  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR ch 34
Shadows were beginning to stretch to the far mountains by the time Moiraine appeared, falling and staggering back to her feet as she climbed, as sunburned as Aviendha. He was startled to see she had no clothes on either. Women were crazy, that was all.
Lan leaped from the stone outcrop and ran down to her. Scooping her into his arms, he ran back upslope, perhaps faster than he had descended, cursing and shouting for the Wise Ones by turns. Moiraine's head lolled on his shoulder. The Wise Ones came out to take her, Melaine physically barring his way when he tried to follow them into the tent. Lan was left stalking up and down outside, pounding a fist into his hand.
Now i'm wondering about this episode: how come Lan didn't know when Moiraine came out? Something similar happened when she went to Rhuidean and Lan didn't know of it.Did she fuzz the bond? Or did Rhuidean somehow mask the effect of the bond even at that distance?

I think its likely she masked the bond, but I can't think of a reason why. Does anyone have a clue?
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  #797  
Old 11-03-2011, 03:10 AM
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I think he was probably waiting for her to come in sight so as to not violate the customs of the Aiel. As for her going, I'm assuming the Wise Ones deceived Lan as to where, exactly, Moiraine was going until she reached the shield protecting Rhuidean.
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  #798  
Old 11-03-2011, 06:30 AM
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Default callandor flaw

Everyone says the flaw in callandor is no protection from the taint i always thought it was a lack of protection in taking that much power. Hoevever if it is protection from the taint and Saidin is now cleased why does it need to be used in a circle now?
And how would the woman help protect from the taint and would been in any circle have given them that protection?
  #799  
Old 11-03-2011, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Now i'm wondering about this episode: how come Lan didn't know when Moiraine came out? Something similar happened when she went to Rhuidean and Lan didn't know of it.Did she fuzz the bond? Or did Rhuidean somehow mask the effect of the bond even at that distance?

I think its likely she masked the bond, but I can't think of a reason why. Does anyone have a clue?
She probably masked the bond to prevent him from going after her.

I have another question: why is it that not all Aiel are Wise Ones?
If all it takes is simply a declaration that you are one, then, at one time or another, more and more Aiel would've caught on to that trick. And once it became obvious that it worked, they all would've done it.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil01 View Post
Everyone says the flaw in callandor is no protection from the taint i always thought it was a lack of protection in taking that much power. Hoevever if it is protection from the taint and Saidin is now cleased why does it need to be used in a circle now?
And how would the woman help protect from the taint and would been in any circle have given them that protection?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOD, 27, The Bargain
“It is flawed,” [Cadsuane] replied curtly, “lacking the buffer that makes other sa’angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows.”
(edited by me slightly for clarity)

Cadusane says that Callandor is flawed and it magnifies the taint. The "buffer", it is presumed, is what prevents you from burning yourself out using any other sa'angreal (including the Choedan Kal), but it also seems that another sa'angreal or angreal which a man can use wouldn't magnify the taint - although it's logical to think Cadsuane probably hasn't made a great study of male angreal, and perhaps that is just an effect of drawing tainted Saidin through an angreal. In any case, channelling in a circle is essentially (for the person melding the flows) using another person as an angreal, so it's not possible to burn oneself out, and since the non-leading members of the circle contribute to its power at a lesser level than the leader, it's not possible to burn them out, either. Thus, using Callandor in a circle where the man using it does not lead would grant the man using Callandor the normal protection from burning out that a circle provides whilst also allowing him to draw through the Sa'angreal. It's to be presumed that were he leading the circle, he'd still be able to draw so much saidin through Callandor that he could actually burn himself out, even linked. What the consequences would be for the women in this circumstance, I don't know.

I know that's a little complex, but I think it is a comprehensive explanation of they whys and wherefores of the problem with Callandor.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
 


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