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  #101  
Old 05-29-2011, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning View Post
This from an RJ quote Terez put up in the first page of this thread.

And it makes me wonder about the mark that was put on Alviarin's forehead. I would assume that traditionally to become a 'chosen' one would have to travel to SG and all the way down the hole to be marked. But in this case the DO is strong enough to reach out and mark Alviarin through SH.

It was always a question for me what that marking meant, and this quote seems to suggest an intriguing possibility. But even Alviarin herself didn't know what the mark meant. So I'm wondering if the DO was concerned over losing so many of the forsaken that he decided to promote new candidates? But why would he not tell her? And why would he give her privileges (controlling fades and whatnot) without taking more strict vows and stuff?
It's also in the interview database that Alviarin's mark is slightly different from the Chosen mark - sort of one level below (which I guess might be Dreadlord):
Quote:
Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.
  #102  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
That wasn't exactly the point. As per the title, this is an 'ask anything' thread. But with all the resources available to us as WoT fans, I also feel that it's important to indicate how answers to some of these questions can be pretty easily found. To me, it's not only about sharing knowledge, but also about sharing methods and resources.
Yeah well you definitely helped with that. I wouldn't have thought to find the answer with the method you described and now know that I can try that in future. So thanks again.
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  #103  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
A question about the prophecy paitar knew of...
Reading the actual text of the prophecy, it sounds like rand killed the clerk after he went mad, and therefore after the sealing. But as he recalls it Demandred is somehow involved. Am I reading it wrong, or is rand lying, or...?
I think that you are reading it wrong.
It seems to me that Rand killed her in a "power gone wild" type incident. He and Demandred were blasting away at each other, LTT got over enthusiastic and struck at the wrong place, and as a result Tellindal Tirraso died. Just a case of friendly fire, really, but one which LTT/Rand thinks could have been prevented, if he had only been a bit more careful.
  #104  
Old 05-29-2011, 12:26 PM
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"Darkness that came the day after the light" doesn't refer to the taint and counterstroke?
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  #105  
Old 05-29-2011, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
"Darkness that came the day after the light" doesn't refer to the taint and counterstroke?

It can't be, Demandred would of been already sealed if that were the case.

Just spit ballin' here but I'm pretty sure the "light" is referring to LTT being pronounced The Dragon and the "Darkness" being Demandred and his 81 turning to the Shadow and attacking LTT right after that pronouncement.

As I understand it, Demandred and LTT were both vying to be proclaimed The Dragon. Demandred garnered the support of 81, LTT garnered 113 (The Hundred Companions).
This was the final straw for Demandred.
  #106  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:02 PM
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Your reason for why it can't be is sort of my point.
Either:
Demandred wasn't fully bound

The prophecy was fake, so either paitar is up to something or someone is up to something with him

Rand was lying or is insane

All seem worrisome. Has Brandon confirmed the prophecy's legitimacy and rand's answer's accuracy?
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  #107  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:03 PM
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Also I am pretty sure that the 113 were gathered later
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  #108  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:35 PM
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This is what happens when noobs answer each other's questions. Demandred was not bound yet, he was never competing to be 'the Dragon', and we have no idea what the 'day after the light' means; anything we can say is speculation only. It probably just means they had won a great victory the day before.
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  #109  
Old 05-29-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Also I am pretty sure that the 113 were gathered later
The Hundred Companions were formed well before the Stike at SG.

tGS chapt 1, LTT is "talking" to Rand, he states that after the women refused, that left him with only the Hundred Companions to carry out his plan.
Clearly The Hundred Companions were formed before LTT even proposed his plan.
  #110  
Old 05-29-2011, 03:13 PM
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No, they weren't. They were formed when Lews Therin and Latra Posae first began to butt heads over their respective plans, which was long before the Fateful Concord:

Quote:
A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal to the point of disrupting meetings at the Hall of the Servants, had supported Lews Therin Telamon during the struggle with Latra Posae. This group was popularly called the Hundred Companions, though they actually numbered 113 at this point. With the Hundred Companions, and a force of some ten thousand warmen, Lews Therin Telamon launched the planned attack on the bore.
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  #111  
Old 05-29-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, they weren't. They were formed when Lews Therin and Latra Posae first began to butt heads over their respective plans, which was long before the Fateful Concord:
Fair enough but they were formed before the actual Strike so what I stated was not completely inaccurate.
They were formed because of the plan then, I apologize.

Also, Demandred, who was, by all accounts, second only to LTT himself, turning to the Shadow with 81 more channelers at the same time be viewed as a dark day indeed.
Add to that, Paitar's fortelling and Rand's account of the events pertaining to that foretelling, it might still be speculation but it's at least educated speculation with some proof.


...and you can lay off on the name calling, there's absolutely no need for it, especially in a thread, you yourself said there are no dumb questions.

Thanks

Last edited by finnssss; 05-29-2011 at 03:52 PM.
  #112  
Old 05-29-2011, 03:56 PM
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There are, however, dumb answers.
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  #113  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:26 PM
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Interesting opinions. I thought it was worth looking into, especially when Brandon mentioned paitar as a possible candidate for Demandred, I thought he might have been projecting. Not that I have seen any theories claiming this, and based on the criteria we have he cannot be, but Brandon's assuming we connected the two seemed interesting.

The SaSG seems pretty clear on the timing of the formation of the Hundred companions, and I doubt anyone would argue they were formed just on the way to SG, so I would say you are mostly wrong.

Noobs you may call us terez, but you are mistaken in thinking Demandred didn't compete for the title dragon. One of the forsaken thinks of it, I'm trying to find the quote.
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  #114  
Old 05-29-2011, 05:14 PM
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He had had the misfortune to be born one day after Lews Therin Telamon, who would become the Dragon, while Barid Bel Medar, as he was then, spent years almost matching Lews Therin’s accomplishments, not quite matching Lews Therin’s fame. Without Lews Therin, he would have been the most acclaimed man of the Age. Had he been appointed to lead instead of the man he considered his intellectual inferior, an overcautious fool who too often managed to scrape up luck, would he stand here today?

From mesaana in loc

Seems indicative. Maybe not definite, but the dragon being the title of the military leader for the light seems reasonable. There may be a more explicit quote somewhere.
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  #115  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Noobs you may call us terez, but you are mistaken in thinking Demandred didn't compete for the title dragon.
No, I am not mistaken.

Quote:
One of the forsaken thinks of it, I'm trying to find the quote.
You won't find it. The quotes you gave are common knowledge and don't have anything to do with what you claimed. 'Dragon' was not a title but rather a name given to Lews Therin by the people, much like the Forsaken were given their names.
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  #116  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:44 PM
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Compelling counter-argument.
While I recognize you have put far more time into studying wot, your word alone does not constitute evidence. You may even be right. Things like this are just an idle amusement, I am far more interested in the metaphysics and the military storylines. In any case I have seen only one quote supporting your position, something about the people giving him the title because of his effectiveness at holding back the shadow. As lews therin and Demandred were both fighting effectively and presumably less therein was chosen by someone, there is no reason both positions cannot be true. Lews therin was given the title by the people when he was chosen to lead (by the people), the two may be one and the same. Or not. I doubt anyone will be able to find concrete evidence one way or another, though extremists willikely believe that they have.
The whole issue began with someone completely misunderstanding my question though, and given their lack of evidence and unusual view of logic I expect the whole issue will blow away soon.
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  #117  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
... but the dragon being the title of the military leader for the light seems reasonable. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB
At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sedai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at the time was Lews Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technology, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. Their idyllic peace and innocence had already been taken. Now, under the Dragon, they struggled to save what was left from ultimate destruction.

Only the Da’shain Aiel, who served the Aes Sedai and the Lord Dragon who led them, remained completely apart from the fighting. Their covenant, the Way of the Leaf, prevented them from taking up arms even in the face of death. The Aes Sedai they served zealously protected them and their covenant, while accepting their service in all non-military matters. In many ways the Aiel represented to them the best of all that had been lost when the Bore was opened. Perhaps it was this mutual service and protection under Lews Therin that led to the Da’shain being called the People of the Dragon.
The BWB suggests that the name "dragon" was a personal appellation gained before being selcted as military commander and not a military title.

Comments by RJ regardinging the nature of the Dragon Soul are also inconsistent with it being a mundane title rather than a metaphysical archetype. LTT was Born the Dragon, just as surely as Rand was born The Dragon Reborn.
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  #118  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
The BWB suggests that the name "dragon" was a personal appellation gained before being selcted as military commander and not a military title.

Comments by RJ regardinging the nature of the Dragon Soul are also inconsistent with it being a mundane title rather than a metaphysical archetype. LTT was Born the Dragon, just as surely as Rand was born The Dragon Reborn.
From our point of view, yes, obviously it's more cut and dry.
However, it's not always about what we knew but what the characters believe. It does not seem to be the point of view taken by most of the Forsaken nor does it seem to be the point of view taken by Taim when we first met him.
I have no doubt that Demandred believes that without LTT's luck, he would of been the Dragon, something supported by Messana's POV in LoC, regardless of what the reality is.
Taim was no different, he believes or at least believed that if things had of unfolded just a little differently, he would of somehow met all the criteria to be the Dragon reborn.

As Asmo pointed out in tFoH, how many times has something Moiraine said right out and believed to be true been proven not to be?

Last edited by finnssss; 05-29-2011 at 10:13 PM.
  #119  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:46 PM
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He came to be known as the dragon, and became the military leader. My position is whatever the answer, I do not think we currently have the info. It is interesting that when this was brought up, military leader would have worked just as well, and no controversy. Strongly suggests =\=proves. And just because the dragon was predetermined, does not mean he wasn't also given the title. He could have been predetermined to be the one chosen as the dragon.
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  #120  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:53 PM
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Nothing in the books, BWB or quotes from RJ, BS, or Maria indicate that the title of Military Leader was designated "The Dragon". All incations are that LTT gained the name, like his 3rd name, through service to the Light. And unlike the Forsaken, he resented the name, due to it's implications.

Last edited by frenchie; 05-30-2011 at 09:04 PM. Reason: spelling
 


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