AMOL Cover art revealed

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by jana

They will defeat the Dark One with love-making

(I can't believe it took me so long to have this epiphany)

You were probably tricked into believing the following bit:

Originally Posted by TFoH, Chapter 7, A Departure

"He has been drawing further and further away from me, Lan, and I must be close to him. He needs whatever guidance I can give, and I will do everything short of sharing his bed to see that he gets it." The rings had told her that that would be disaster. Not that she had ever considered it – the very idea still shocked her! – but in the rings it was something she would or could have considered in the future. It was a measure of her growing desperation, no doubt, and in the rings she had seen that it would bring ruination on everything. She wished she could remember how – there were keys to Rand al'Thor in anything she could learn about him – but only the simple fact of calamity remained in her mind.

Only now do you realise that the DO wouldn't have any beds in the guest quarters, so they wouldn't do "it" in Rand's bed.

Learn that lesson: always pay close attention to what an AS says, and (try to) figure out what she is not saying.

[Landro]

Originally Posted by Boli

The stronger someone is in the power the more "talents" they will have. Rand doesn't have any "talents" as we have seen them; but neither does he have any obvious weaknesses

Asmo was very impressed with Rand for being able to hold Avi's gateway open while it was closing. He thought nobody except Demandred (could have been Sammael too. I don't have the books at hand to look it up) was able to do so. I'd say that qualifies as a Talent.

[Enigma]

I believe that there was a scene in the second last book where LTT indicated that he had told the female AS in the AoL that brute force would not work against the Dark One. He was referring to the plan to use the CK but the point still applies.

No matter how strong Rand might be, he is not a god and cannot hope to overpower a god. His ability to defeat or free the DO is probably more liked to his pattern affecting abiltiies and or uniting humanity to a degree against the DO. Belief and order give strenght etc.

Saying that he would not have lived to get to the Last Battle if he was not so strong as he would have been killed or captured by the good guys eg AS or whitecloaks not to mention the BA or the forsaken.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Grig

Because authors like to make their protagonists the best person that evar was! That doesn't mean that they couldn't fulfill their purpose if there existed someone stronger.

No, I pointed out the Gary Stu angle, which is probably the bottom line as to why he's the strongest. I doubt Jordan put any real thought into it when he made Rand "the strongest". He's the protagonist, in a world with RIGHT and WRONG (which was Jordan's big hangup, he hated the whole idea of moral ambiguity with a passion). As such, it was only appropriate that he was made the strongest.

It's also true that being "the strongest" likely saved his life a few times before the climax. For instance, fighting Sammael, or when the trollocs attacked at Lord Algarin's manner. That doesn't mean said strength is necessary for said climax, which is what this discussion was about in the first place. Or that the Dragon couldn't prevail if there existed someone somewhere who just happened to be stronger than him.

No other character in the WOT world is a Mary Stu with special powers for no other reason than "just because". In addition, RJ gave Rand numerous flaws and weaknesses to mitigate the effect of his vast One Power strength. He was not doing these things for no reason. Nynaeve is as powerful as she is because that's how powerful she needs to be; the introduction of characters stronger than her also serves a purpose.

The idea that authors like to make their characters the most powerful is laughable when compared to actual reality. Rand al'Thor is the most powerful, but he also has numerous disadvantages; Thomas Covenant's power is barely controllable and affected by his physical and mental state similarly to Rand; the ring is carried into Mordor by two little hobbits of no special ability. There are numerous other examples. The term "Mary Sue" or its equivalent is one that's thrown around far too casually and is barely of any worth even in the context from which it originates.

It certainly is not the case that RJ would make Rand al'Thor the most powerful channeller who ever lived just because he felt like it. What else in the books is there just to serve his pleasure? We're not talking about someone writing fan fiction here; we're talking about a professional author who warrants comparison to Tolkien.

Your claim that RJ hated moral ambiguity with a passion is also incorrect. He definitely believed in an idea of objective good and evil, but look at the Seanchan and the White Tower; both are morally ambiguous in many ways, doing good on one hand and what could be called evil on the other. RJ created an objective evil and certainly believed in it, but he was a lot more cautious about the idea of objective good. To say that he hated moral ambiguity is to demonstrate that you lack familiarity with both the author and his works. Rand's own confusion about this matter plays into the idea of the necessary attributes of the Dragon Reborn. (check the "RJ on ethics" tag in the interview database for more of his thoughts; really quite interesting)

Now, I am not suggesting that the Dragon will succeed only because he is the strongest, but I do think it is the case that he must be the strongest in order to succeed. Every attribute he has, he has for a reason. Even his fall into darkness and epiphany upon Dragonmount serves to make him better prepared to perform the task he must. Perhaps he needed his vast strength in order to "heal the wound of madness" (cleanse the taint) before the final battle so that he and his allies would not go insane. Perhaps it will be needed in the final battle, or to unleash some special property of callandor, or for some other reason. Certainly his oneness with the land and unique TAR status may come into play. But why would you think strength in the power is so unimportant? As others have already discovered, RJ never downplayed its importance. Why do you?

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7

*shrug* You might not think that's the point, but in my opinion, it kind of is. I originally included the quotes about flying fish just for fun. (See the smiley in my previous post?) Since Flinn included in his post a link for flying fish from our Age, I thought I would also include quotes showing that flying fish exist in the Age of the books, even though people in Randland often use the phrase that you "can't teach a fish to fly (or a bird to swim)" to denote something impossible. And really, that's one of RJ's key themes: that people don't always know as much as they think they know: "You can't teach a fish to fly." "You can't Heal stilling." "You can't unravel weaves." And so on. . .

So many of us, along with the Randlanders, think that since we know Callandor is a male sa'angreal without a buffer (and before the Cleansing it also magnified the taint), we know pretty much everything there is to know about it. But there are hints, from Min for one when she is reading the Prophecies, that there may be other things that are strange about Callandor: other flaws or distinctive properties.

You have noted that Callandor may only be used by a man because it is a male sa'angreal. Do we know that for sure? Has a woman ever tried to use it? I really doubt that a woman being able to use Callandor is its additional flaw or property, but we don't really know that with certainty, I don't think. The BWB (and yes, I know the BWB has errors included deliberately) hints that there actually are angreal and sa'angreal that might be able to be used by both men and women:



But even if that is most likely not the case, there are other things we don't really know about Callandor. For example, can a man also draw the True Power through Callandor (not totally out of the question, since the taint and the True Power are at least related)? RJ said that angreal made for use with the One Power cannot be used as angreal for the True Power. Does that apply as well to Callandor, a sa'angreal? Or is that an additional 'flaw'? We don't really know for sure. (And to be more specific, RJ said that Moridin could not use a male angreal when channeling the True Power.)

In addition, we could ask why Callandor may be required at Shayol Ghul above all the other sa'angreal produced. It is the only one mentioned in the Prophecies (that we know of, anyway). What about it is so important? It was just one of many sa'angreal produced during the War of Power, and according to RJ, the lack of buffer was simply a manufacturing flaw. We don't really know exactly why it is going to be so important.

So ultimately. . . when you quote a phrase like "fish can't fly" (to paraphrase your statement a little, or "fish don't have wings", to be specific) in relation to Callandor, in my opinion, you kind of sound like all those characters in Randland who dismissed the possibility of the Healing of stilling because "everyone" knew it was impossible.

There may be evidence for your hypothesis. In The Dragon Reborn, Siuan tells Nynaeve "With Callandor, you could level a city." She uses the word "you" not "a man." Now, occam's razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that she was not being literal and that she meant "you" in the generic sense. But technically speaking, the First Oath should have prevented her from making that statement... Unless Siuan knows something we don't.

[Landro]

Originally Posted by Seeker

There may be evidence for your hypothesis. In The Dragon Reborn, Siuan tells Nynaeve "With Callandor, you could level a city." She uses the word "you" not "a man." Now, occam's razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that she was not being literal and that she meant "you" in the generic sense. But technically speaking, the First Oath should have prevented her from making that statement... Unless Siuan knows something we don't.

The first oath let's you lie as long as you believe it to be true. A good example of this are all the AS who claimed stilling couldn't be Healed. Because they believed it to be true they could say it even though they were wrong.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by Landro

The first oath let's you lie as long as you believe it to be true. A good example of this are all the AS who claimed stilling couldn't be Healed. Because they believed it to be true they could say it even though they were wrong.

Of course, you'd think that Siuan would have made a point of studying up on Callandor given her 20 year mission to find the Dragon Reborn so she would have had access to a ton of information on it and other Dragon-related objects.

You would think at least.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Let's also not forget that Rand used his immense endowment to cleanse saidin. Sure, a lower level channeler might have been able to do it with the Choedan Kal, but it would have taken a lot longer. The point is, Rand has already benefited from being the strongest, so that extra bit of strength might not matter so much in the final hour.

As for love-making--well, yeah. Veins of Gold and all that. Love is all you need, man.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Landro

The first oath let's you lie as long as you believe it to be true. A good example of this are all the AS who claimed stilling couldn't be Healed. Because they believed it to be true they could say it even though they were wrong.

Facepalm.

Yes, I'm aware that Siuan can speak a falsehood if she genuinely believes it to be true but the relevant question is why does she believe that Nynaeve can level a city with Callandor? She's the Amylin Seat at this point and knowledge that angreal are gender-specific is common among Aes Sedai. She would have no cause to believe that Nynaeve can use Callandor unless she has some specific knowledge on that subject that told her so. So either RJ made a minor error or this is a hint.

[Ishara]

Or she used "you" as a third person neutral.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian

Let's also not forget that Rand used his immense endowment to cleanse saidin. Sure, a lower level channeler might have been able to do it with the Choedan Kal, but it would have taken a lot longer. The point is, Rand has already benefited from being the strongest, so that extra bit of strength might not matter so much in the final hour.

As for love-making--well, yeah. Veins of Gold and all that. Love is all you need, man.

I mean when you really think about it, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian

Let's also not forget that Rand used his immense endowment to cleanse saidin. Sure, a lower level channeler might have been able to do it with the Choedan Kal, but it would have taken a lot longer. The point is, Rand has already benefited from being the strongest, so that extra bit of strength might not matter so much in the final hour.

Sure, but since he was prophesied to "cleanse the wound of madness" that's an example of him having his power because he needs it. Any longer and the Forsaken might actually have managed to get their acts together and mount a decent offensive, thus interrupting the weave, and who knows what then might have happened? I'll allow that this doesn't necessarily suggest he might need this power again in the final battle, but the point is he has that level of OP strength for a good reason.

[Boli]

Originally Posted by Landro

Asmo was very impressed with Rand for being able to hold Avi's gateway open while it was closing. He thought nobody except Demandred (could have been Sammael too. I don't have the books at hand to look it up) was able to do so. I'd say that qualifies as a Talent.

I was always 50/50 on this being a talent - it could just have been sheer power as at that time he just "leveled up".

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Boli

I was always 50/50 on this being a talent - it could just have been sheer power as at that time he just "leveled up".

I doubt it, considering the list of people Asmodean does and doesn't mention with this ability:

Originally Posted by TFoH, Chapter 32, A Short Spear

Asmodean swallowed, shifting as though he did not know whether Rand meant his threat. Rand was not sure himself. "My Lord Dragon, you never asked. A matter of bending light. You always have so many questions, it is hard to find a moment to speak of anything else. You must realize by now that I've thrown my lot in with yours completely." Licking his lips, he got up. As far as his knees. And began to babble. "I felt your weave – anybody within a mile could have felt it – I never saw anything like it – I didn't know that anyone but Demandred could block a gateway that was closing, and maybe Semirhage – and Lews Therin – I felt it, and came, and a hard time I had getting past those Maidens – I used the same trick – you must know I am your man now. My Lord Dragon, I am your man."

Demandred, Semirhage and Lews Therin.
Not Ishamael, not Lanfear, not Sammael nor Aginor. Yet any of those at least should be considered more powerful than Semirhage, so they should also have been on the list, if it were based on power only.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

Sure, but since he was prophesied to "cleanse the wound of madness" that's an example of him having his power because he needs it. Any longer and the Forsaken might actually have managed to get their acts together and mount a decent offensive, thus interrupting the weave, and who knows what then might have happened? I'll allow that this doesn't necessarily suggest he might need this power again in the final battle, but the point is he has that level of OP strength for a good reason.

Um...right. That was my point. Rand can have a specific need for OP strength completely aside from his final confrontation with the Dark One.

No one here mentioned the Cleansing and we have only talked about his strength in the context of using Callandor to fight the DO.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian

Um...right. That was my point. Rand can have a specific need for OP strength completely aside from his final confrontation with the Dark One.

No one here mentioned the Cleansing and we have only talked about his strength in the context of using Callandor to fight the DO.

I agree with you - I was saying that it's evidence for my point in the sub-argument I'm having with Grig. No offence meant, sorry if it came across as stand-offish.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

I agree with you - I was saying that it's evidence for my point in the sub-argument I'm having with Grig. No offence meant, sorry if it came across as stand-offish.

No worries at all. I just think the Cleansing nicely answers both sides of the argument.

[Datakim]

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat

Why would Rand need two women in a link when he goes to face the DO?

Sure, if Cadsuane is correct about Callandor, then using that thing without such precautions is not safe. On the other hand, going to face the DO is not safe anyway, so that doesn't seem a compelling argument. If you're on a building site then wearing a hardhat is in general a good idea. But if you're planning to jump off the top of a building in an attempt to smash some bad guy 30 stories lower, then wearing a hardhat is rather useless.

I don't entirely understand how the whole two women thing works anyway. Also not sure I entirely like it either, now that its been absolutely confirmed.

The Dragon Reborn is the one thats supposed to confront the DO right? But according to Cadsuane, one of the women in the Callandor circle must be the one actually channeling. So if the scene in the cover is the final confrontation, then despite all the prophecies, its not actually Rand that defeats the DO, but rather one of the women. That does not really make much sense in light of the prophecies.

And why is it like that anyway? I thought any circle buffers a person from drawing too much. So why two in particular? And why women? Would it not have worked if it was a link of say 2 men and 1 woman. Or why not just go with a mixed circle of 20 or something to get every advantage. Also I don't understand why Rand cannot be in control? Even if there is some bizarre effect where a link does not protect the one using Callandor, why could Rand not have another male (Logain/Naeff/Narishma) wield callandor while simultaneously in a link with him (via the women) and controlling the flows. Seems rather odd that likely the most experienced and skilled channeler in the world (Rand/LTT) is basically just a powersource for either Moiraine or Nynaeve in that scene.

Also, presumably now that Rand has LTTs memories and skills, he would be capable of using Callandor relatively safely even without the buffers simply due to skill. With the taint gone, the only thing he needs to worry about is overdrawing and killing himself afterall. If he could handle that in book 3, he can do it now.

There has to be something totally unique about Callandor that somehow transcends the ordinary channeling rules, or nothing there makes sense.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Datakim

I don't entirely understand how the whole two women thing works anyway. Also not sure I entirely like it either, now that its been absolutely confirmed.

The Dragon Reborn is the one thats supposed to confront the DO right? But according to Cadsuane, one of the women in the Callandor circle must be the one actually channeling. So if the scene in the cover is the final confrontation, then despite all the prophecies, its not actually Rand that defeats the DO, but rather one of the women. That does not really make much sense in light of the prophecies.

And why is it like that anyway? I thought any circle buffers a person from drawing too much. So why two in particular? And why women? Would it not have worked if it was a link of say 2 men and 1 woman. Or why not just go with a mixed circle of 20 or something to get every advantage. Also I don't understand why Rand cannot be in control? Even if there is some bizarre effect where a link does not protect the one using Callandor, why could Rand not have another male (Logain/Naeff/Narishma) wield callandor while simultaneously in a link with him (via the women) and controlling the flows. Seems rather odd that likely the most experienced and skilled channeler in the world (Rand/LTT) is basically just a powersource for either Moiraine or Nynaeve in that scene.

Also, presumably now that Rand has LTTs memories and skills, he would be capable of using Callandor relatively safely even without the buffers simply due to skill. With the taint gone, the only thing he needs to worry about is overdrawing and killing himself afterall. If he could handle that in book 3, he can do it now.

There has to be something totally unique about Callandor that somehow transcends the ordinary channeling rules, or nothing there makes sense.

Well, there are two things that need to happen. One is that you need to seal the bore. The Dragon is one with the land, as evidenced particularly by the wound in his side. Now, you can't heal yourself, but no-one ever said you couldn't contribute strength towards someone else healing you. If this theory is right, then Nynaeve could control the flows and perform the necessary healing, while Rand fights the Dark One. It's possible this is a healing that can only be performed at Shayol Ghul, and obviously the Dragon's presence is a necessity.

That's the other thing that needs to happen; someone needs to keep the Dark One busy whilst what needs to be done is done. Rand's expressed a desire to actually kill the Dark One, so maybe he can try giving that a go. Also, there will be Fains and Moridins and Shaidar Harans to handle left right and centre, presumably.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Ishara

Or she used "you" as a third person neutral.

Yes, I've considered that but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. Siuans words were "With Callandor in your hands, child, you could could level a city at one blow."

With Callandor in your hands, child. There's no doubt that she's referring specifically to Nynaeve not to some general abstract person. So, I say again, if Callandor is made only for a man and if Siuan knows as much, then why didn't the First Oath force her to change her words?