AMOL Cover art revealed

[Grig]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Ah. Good point. But still, since Callandor is tuned to saidin, Moiraine's strength doesn't matter. She's just one more node in the link.

You're assuming Saidin is all that matters in the climax. Considering the balance theme, I wouldn't be so sure. The circle might need to utilize a good amount of Saidar as well.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Grig

You're assuming Saidin is all that matters in the climax. Considering the balance theme, I wouldn't be so sure. The circle might need to utilize a good amount of Saidar as well.

Yes, but the question was if Moiraine was strong enough to use Callandor. Callandor wasn't made for a woman so it doesn't matter. It's like asking if a fish has a wide enough wing-span to glide on a 50 kmph wind. Fish don't have wings.

[Flinn Sedai]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Yes, but the question was if Moiraine was strong enough to use Callandor. Callandor wasn't made for a woman so it doesn't matter. It's like asking if a fish has a wide enough wing-span to glide on a 50 kmph wind. Fish don't have wings.

I beg to differ

http://fishindex.blogspot.com/2009/0...tyloptena.html

[fionwe1987]

Come to think of it, why isn't Vora's wand being used here? Given that it is one of three sa'angreal with a name, I assumed it had some role to play in the finale. Why not combine to strength of Callandor with Vora's wand? Nynaeve with the wand and Rand with Callandor should at least be in comparable strength ranges. Then, Moiraine/Egwene's contribution need not matter at all.

[Cortar]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Come to think of it, why isn't Vora's wand being used here? Given that it is one of three sa'angreal with a name, I assumed it had some role to play in the finale. Why not combine to strength of Callandor with Vora's wand? Nynaeve with the wand and Rand with Callandor should at least be in comparable strength ranges. Then, Moiraine/Egwene's contribution need not matter at all.

It is probably with the Aes Sedai that are making a distraction and drawing the DO's forces elsewhere

[Weiramon]

Aye, send out a force too small to win, but large enough to command attention, while a small group works its way unnoticed down an unguarded passage.

Of course, if anything goes amiss, they will have to fly like eagles from that fiery pit of doom.

[jana]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Come to think of it, why isn't Vora's wand being used here? Given that it is one of three sa'angreal with a name, I assumed it had some role to play in the finale. Why not combine to strength of Callandor with Vora's wand? Nynaeve with the wand and Rand with Callandor should at least be in comparable strength ranges. Then, Moiraine/Egwene's contribution need not matter at all.

Why would strength matter against the Dark One? Channeling power is going to make no difference, mark my words. If he could be beaten by strength then the CK wouldn't have been destroyed. It's just ludicrous to me to think that channeling power matters when facing the devil himself. It's what Rand uses/how he uses it. If they need to face an army of trollocs beforehand, then sure it matters but I've felt for awhile that Rand won't be doing much battling of trollocs. He almost said it outright in the last book.

(I had to argue this dozens of times when so many people couldn't believe that Moiraine could possibly be involved)

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by jana

Why would strength matter against the Dark One? Channeling power is going to make no difference, mark my words. If he could be beaten by strength then the CK wouldn't have been destroyed. It's just ludicrous to me to think that channeling power matters when facing the devil himself. It's what Rand uses/how he uses it. If they need to face an army of trollocs beforehand, then sure it matters but I've felt for awhile that Rand won't be doing much battling of trollocs. He almost said it outright in the last book.

(I had to argue this dozens of times when so many people couldn't believe that Moiraine could possibly be involved)

On the other hand, if channelling strength is totally unimportant, why would the Dragon need to be as strong as it is possible for a man to be, and why give him a sa'angreal to use?

[Grig]

On the other hand, if channelling strength is totally unimportant, why would the Dragon need to be as strong as it is possible for a man to be

Because he's a Gary Stu? Also, to survive long enough to do what needs to be done, in most turnings directly facing the strongest male channelers serving the Shadow? Nothing says the Dragon "needs to be as strong as it is possible for a man to be". You're adding the "need" part. All we have is the implication that he is.

and why give him a sa'angreal to use?

Because it's not just any sa'angreal? If raw power was what matters, then as previously stated it would be the Choedan Kal that he'd be given. Callandor is different, and that difference is likely going to be much more important than the amount of Power it allows the wielder to use.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Originally Posted by Grig

Because he's a Gary Stu? Also, to survive long enough to do what needs to be done, in most turnings directly facing the strongest male channelers serving the Shadow? Nothing says the Dragon "needs to be as strong as it is possible for a man to be". You're adding the "need" part. All we have is the implication that he is.



Because it's not just any sa'angreal? If raw power was what matters, then as previously stated it would be the Choedan Kal that he'd be given. Callandor is different, and that difference is likely going to be much more important than the amount of Power it allows the wielder to use.

The other thing is that Rand can't use Callandor directly, at least if you believe Cadsuane. He needs one of the women to guide the flows.

I agree that it's not necessarily about OP strength in this fight. I've been pondering this idea that Callandor's attunement to Rand will play into his ability to bend the Pattern as ta'veren. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I think the women will create a weave that somehow blends Rand's Dragon Soul into the Pattern to form a seal, which Rand will then "bend" to fit over the Bore.

The catch is how he will survive after this, as his soul can't be permanently sealed up. Either "to live you must die" only refers to his brief life after his physical death (i.e., at Caemlyn), or the portion of his soul that he deposits in Callandor will suffice.

Or the loony theory is that Rand seals himself up in the Bore only to come "alive" again when someone drills another hole. Of course, he'll be evil at that point.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Grig

Because he's a Gary Stu? Also, to survive long enough to do what needs to be done, in most turnings directly facing the strongest male channelers serving the Shadow? Nothing says the Dragon "needs to be as strong as it is possible for a man to be". You're adding the "need" part. All we have is the implication that he is.

Both plot mechanics and the in-world idea of the pattern/"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" suggest that if Rand is as strong as a man can be (he is) there must be some reason for it. Everything is done for a reason (except the bath scenes).

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian

The other thing is that Rand can't use Callandor directly, at least if you believe Cadsuane. He needs one of the women to guide the flows.

There is possibly a good reason for this:

Originally Posted by ROBERT JORDAN, KOD Signing Report - Pary (Paraphrased)

Re: bulk "strength" in the power, RJ reiterated that men were stronger than women by a couple of levels, including Lanfear [whom he reiterated was a woman after all]; but then he also reminded us that that did not take into account the dexterity factor.

If there is some need for One Power strength to be coupled with the admittedly unique properties of Callandor (whatever those actually turn out to be) then coupling that with the added dexterity of an experienced channeller like Moiraine or a skilled innovator such as Nynaeve could be very desirable. If One Power strength weren't an issue, why not just ask Grady or Neald (or Logain) to do what must be done? Only the Dragon can do it; Rand is the Dragon; he is also the strongest channeller; what other properties are unique to him that suit him to this task?

[Tomp]

The fact that Callandor has no "filter" may mean that it creates a direct link between DO and Creator.
With another Sa'angreal this direct contact maybe couldn't happen.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Tomp

The fact that Callandor has no "filter" may mean that it creates a direct link between DO and Creator.
With another Sa'angreal this direct contact maybe couldn't happen.

How would it do that? The Creator's not involved.

[Flinn Sedai]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

If there is some need for One Power strength to be coupled with the admittedly unique properties of Callandor (whatever those actually turn out to be) then coupling that with the added dexterity of an experienced channeller like Moiraine or a skilled innovator such as Nynaeve could be very desirable. If One Power strength weren't an issue, why not just ask Grady or Neald (or Logain) to do what must be done? Only the Dragon can do it; Rand is the Dragon; he is also the strongest channeller; what other properties are unique to him that suit him to this task?

There is probably a large amount of OP that needs to be used, but sheer amount has never really been relevant. RJ pointed out over and over that OP strength is far less important in Randland, than it is to readers. We (myself strongly included) always consider strength to be a bigger factor than it is.

[sleepinghour]

Originally Posted by jana

If they need to face an army of trollocs beforehand, then sure it matters but I've felt for awhile that Rand won't be doing much battling of trollocs. He almost said it outright in the last book.

On the other hand, we also have Min's viewing of "two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs." Which might not be Rand, but he'll probably run into some Shadowspawn at Shayol Ghul.

Originally Posted by jana

(I had to argue this dozens of times when so many people couldn't believe that Moiraine could possibly be involved)

What's interesting is that Brandon recently told Luckers that the angreal puts Moiraine slightly below her old strength. This is contradicted by Moiraine saying in ToM that she would be stronger than she was before, so Brandon was obviously mistaken, but it suggests that there is no scene in AMoL where Moiraine channels more of saidar than her old strength would have allowed, or Brandon would have remembered that.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai

There is probably a large amount of OP that needs to be used, but sheer amount has never really been relevant. RJ pointed out over and over that OP strength is far less important in Randland, than it is to readers. We (myself strongly included) always consider strength to be a bigger factor than it is.

Did he? I'm far from a quotemaster, but I am more than familiar with the interview database, and I can't recall him pointing that out "over and over". OP strength is obviously pretty important; the Cleansing required massive amounts of OP and all of our main characters are super-channellers.

[Flinn Sedai]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

Did he? I'm far from a quotemaster, but I am more than familiar with the interview database, and I can't recall him pointing that out "over and over". OP strength is obviously pretty important; the Cleansing required massive amounts of OP and all of our main characters are super-channellers.

Over and over, to me, means I saw it referenced 2-3 times. I exaggerate a bit. I'll go pull some quotes.

[Grig]

Both plot mechanics and the in-world idea of the pattern/"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" suggest that if Rand is as strong as a man can be (he is) there must be some reason for it.

The reason is that if there is a top slot, there will be someone in it. Why is Sharina stronger than Nynaeve? Nothing happens without a reason.

Everything is done for a reason (except the bath scenes).

Which prove that not everything is done for a reason, unless you propose that Elayne is constantly followed by vacuoles that cause her to have the uncontrollable impulse to take long baths outside the Pattern. And there being a "reason" is different than there being a "need". Did Asmodean need to kill his parents? Would the Pattern have survived otherwise? Would it have survived if the Whitecloak informant in tEotW had been scarred on his arm instead of his face?

Just because things are a certain way does not make said way a necessity.

what other properties are unique to him that suit him to this task?

Uh, knowledge of past lives where the Dark One was sealed? Metaphysical attachment to the Land? Both seem much more relevant than just how much more powerful he is than Logain when it comes to the OP.

Are you seriously claiming that if Rand had 5% less power capacity, his purpose in the Pattern could not be fulfilled?

[Tomp]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

How would it do that? The Creator's not involved.

I meant that DO gets directly linked to the one power (rather than the Creator).
Kind of like matter and anti-matter (with a smaller bang, hopefully).

I'm just speculating here.

[Zombie Sammael]

Originally Posted by Grig

The reason is that if there is a top slot, there will be someone in it. Why is Sharina stronger than Nynaeve? Nothing happens without a reason.

Which prove that not everything is done for a reason, unless you propose that Elayne is constantly followed by vacuoles that cause her to have the uncontrollable impulse to take long baths outside the Pattern. And there being a "reason" is different than there being a "need". Did Asmodean need to kill his parents? Would the Pattern have survived otherwise? Would it have survived if the Whitecloak informant had been scarred on his arm instead of his face?

Just because things are a certain way does not make said way a necessity.

Uh, knowledge of past lives where the Dark One was sealed? Metaphysical attachment to the Land? Both seem much more relevant than just how much more powerful he is than Logain when it comes to the OP.

Are you seriously claiming that if Rand had 5% less power capacity, his purpose in the Pattern could not be fulfilled?

If RJ had wanted to make Rand the Chosen One but not necessarily the strongest in the Power, why not make Moridin or Logain stronger than him to increase the threat level? Why not make Taim stronger to increase the menace? The reason is because there is a specific plot need for the Dragon to be the strongest. Rand has numerous unique characteristics, one of which is his OP strength. He has all of those other characteristics for a reason. To flip it around, are you seriously suggesting that Rand is the strongest male channeller "just because" when he has all those other traits for good reason?

Originally Posted by Tomp

I meant that DO gets directly linked to the one power (rather than the Creator).
Kind of like matter and anti-matter (with a smaller bang, hopefully).

I'm just speculating here.

Ah, I see, that makes more sense. I tend to think the DO will end up sealed again rather than killed, but Rand does seem to have a certain hubristic desire to kill the Dark One, so who knows? Then again, "who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time may learn the truth too late", so maybe not.