Balance and Order, Laughter and Tears in AMoL

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Davian93

How would it be easy for Sevanna & Co to test? The only known male channeler they might theoretically use it on is Rand and the odds of that happening were pretty slim. It was a near-impossible lie to get caught in for Sammael.

Considering the fact that they were given the thing specifically to induce them to capture Rand (from the Mesaana controlled AS who had him at the time), I do not think that Sammael would've considered the odds to be that low. Considering further than Sevanna hoped to use it to make Rand obey her, and that Sammael didn't want that particular outcome, he did have a reason to want to avoid giving them a thing which could turn Rand into a weapon that could be used against him.

Furthermore, considering the fact that there were apparently more binders/Oath Rods available during the early stages of the Breaking, and that nothing that was tried helped, it would seem unlikely that such a binder would actually help you control a male channeler to a sufficient degree.

[Davian93]

He had good reason to avoid letting them know it would work and he led them down a fools path. This is the same guy that gave them "Traveling Boxes" afterall.

Sammael was a good enough general to realize that the Shaido never really had a shot at capturing Rand.

[EvilChani]

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

That wasn't the ancient symbol. It showed her the flame and underneat it the fang. They were not united in a circle like the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by EvilChani

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

That idea doesnt really fit in with the Guardians balancing the Servants...balance denotes equality, not subservience.

[Weird Harold]

Originally Posted by Davian93

Where does the Even/Odd numerology come from?

From the fact that we've never seen an odd numbered binder.

It is a theory that is based on almost no evidence and a very charitable view of Sammael.

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by Weird Harold

From the fact that we've never seen an odd numbered binder.

It is a theory that is based on almost no evidence and a very charitable view of Sammael.

Fair enough.

I just wasnt sure if there was some random interview quote I didnt know about.

[suttree]

Originally Posted by Davian93

That idea doesnt really fit in with the Guardians balancing the Servants...balance denotes equality, not subservience.

Yup, I can't see the scenario EC presents coming about...

[Master Ablar]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

You're forgetting the Black Tower is tainted. It is made of Shayol Ghul rock, and the headquarters of a Darkfriend. That association isn't going to go away anytime soon.

The whole Black Tower or just Taim's palace?

The Ashaman don't exactly have a good reputation already do they? I doubt it getting a little worse will make them decide to give up who they are.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Plus, it is soon to be rent in fire and blood. If you think the Asha'man who remain, the good ones who didn't follow Taim, will erect a black stone monolith on top of one that was made from Shayol Ghul rock, you can forget it. When the BT story is done, the good Asha'man are going to want nothing to do with it. And if Taim's Asha'man go out and cause massive damage in the LB, they may not want much to do much with the name Asha'man either.

If Taim's Ashaman go out and do massive damage then they're not Ashaman. The Ashaman who was with Ituralde made it clear that any men who fought with the shadow was no Ashaman. Why would the Ashaman bend to the public opinion of them? As for being rent in fire and blood, that's rather vague. Is it the whole BT, parts of it, or just Taim's palace? If nothing else they can just rebuild it. Being Ashaman actually gave them a purpose. They're not going to let Taim take that away from them.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

The Aes Sedai don't hate male channelers, the Red Ajah does. And they just had a fourth of their membership revealed as Darkfriends and are politically very weak now, not to mention purposeless.

The Aes Sedai in the rebel camp didn't seem to have a very good opinion of male channellers. The Aes Sedai don't like male channellers any more than the rest of the population. If anything they like them less. And they definitely don't see them as equals.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

As for mistrust, fear and prejudice... that's exactly what the Ajah's felt for each other under Elaida. You don't see signs of that now, do you? And the Aes Sedai also hated Wilders. Now they've made a huge deal with them... Things change. Especially when the world itself is threatened.

They didn't hate wilders, they just looked down upon them. And I doubt the opinion of the majority of the Aes Sedai has changed all that much. As for the Ajah's it was recent, and to a far lesser extent then with male channellers. You don't see signs of it now because Egwene told them all they were acting like fools. Egwene's opinion of male channellers is no different than that of the rest of the Aes Sedai's.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

And the Aes Sedai are freshly infused with hundreds of women who've not been indoctrinated. When they see the great working relationships the bonded Asha'man and Aes Sedai have, the "old guard" are going to have to shut up. At the "dawn of a new Age", they aren't going to spend too long being obstacles to the inevitable.

Depends on what you mean by "too long". I definitely think that it's the new generation of Aes Sedai who eventually bring about change, but how long will it take for them to gain influence in the WT? And the new generation still lived in a world where male channellers were feared and hated. It might take a generation that has never known the taint to finally cause a complete shift in the WT over the matter.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Then why did Egwene immediately think of the Dragon and the Amyrlin ruling Tar Valon together?

Because she saw the flame and the fang. That doesn't change the fact that the description is not that of the old Aes Sedai symbol. Incidentally her thought are incorrect anyway since the Dragon is not the leader of the male channeller. Or at least he is not meant to be.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

He does? Tell that to Gabrielle then. The point with Egwene and Logain's past is that they have a basis to establish a working relationship. Just like the Wise One's, despite their distrust and contempt for the AS, agreed to make a deal with them because they knew and trusted Egwene, so can Logain.

Logain is smart enough to realize that gentling him was a bad move for Egwene anyway. Logain barely knows her. Egwene spent months with Wise Ones. And even if he respects her, maybe even likes her, that doesn't change the fact that it's not in the best interests of the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai at the moment.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

No, but when they work together to save the world, they'll kind of find it hard to stop. There will be too many personal relationships formed, too many people wedded to the idea of a united Aes Sedai community of men and women for anyone to completely put a stop to it. Will there be no politics on the male-female lines? Of course there will. But once they establish a working relationship where they're likely going to save each others backs, when they daily get to see the amazing things that they can do when they combine their powers together, they're going to find it hard to give that up.

You really think it's going to change that quickly? Cadsuane and Merise don't believe that the Ashaman should be equal to the Aes Sedai and they've been working with them for a while now. Sure the Aes Sedai will fight with the Ashaman at the Last Battle, but that doesn't mean they'll get to know each other all that well. The Aes Sedai will see that the Ashaman are terribly effictive in battle but they already knew thanks to Dumai's Wells. Their opinion of male channellers is ingrained in them, and time is the only thing that'll make it truly go away, same as the taint like Elza told Rand.

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Egwene, Nynaeve, Siuan, Elayne?

Ah, OK.

Originally Posted by EvilChani

And, unfortunately, this seems to indicate that the Aes Sedai will rule over the Asha'man (if they were equals, the symbols would be side by side). This fits with the idea that all Asha'man should be bonded as Warder-slaves, which may be what Cadsuane ends up forcing on the Asha'man - "No one will ever accept you until they see you are safe, and the only way to do that is to allow the Aes Sedai to bond you as Warders. Maybe, after a time, channeling men can 'earn' the right to remain unbonded, but you must submit to Tower authority either way. Get over it, get on your knees, and swear fealty to a sister or you'll be forced to do so."

I hate it, but I think this is where things are headed. All the men will be bonded unless they run, which I could see Logain doing (he isn't the type to allow a woman to control him or the type to swear to be a mindless slave to some biatch for the rest of his miserable life). Egwene will never accept men as equals to women, it's just not in her nature, and Cadsuane has already stated outright in the text that she thinks all of the Asha'man should be bonded and 'tamed' like Merise has done with that pansy ass Jahar ("Go to the corner Jahar! I'll beat you, Jahar!" Blah!). If I were an Asha'man, I'd run or die first before I let one of those obnoxious, controlling bitches bond me as a slave.

Who's going to force the Ashaman to do anything, especialy give up their freedom? I don't really see anyone having the power to do that. And bonding them forcefully does not sound like something that Egwene would do anyway. And if the Ashaman are not accepted then so be it. They knew what they were getting into when they decided to join. As long as they don't do anything stupid like blowing things up at random, then with time people will change their opinions of Ashaman, and those who have never lived with the taint will have a completely un-biased view of them.

[suttree]

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

Logain is smart enough to realize that gentling him was a bad move for Egwene anyway. Logain barely knows her. Egwene spent months with Wise Ones. And even if he respects her, maybe even likes her, that doesn't change the fact that it's not in the best interests of the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai at the moment.

But there is still a starting point between the two characters. The fact the Eggy was the one to jump start his new life will not sit lightly with him. You can't underestimate how huge that was his mind for her to make that move. Without it all his "glory" down the road would be impossible.

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by Davian93

Separate post for the Guardian/Servant question...the very fact that they'll still be called Guardians shows that they wont unite into one group. It reads far more like the Black Tower Guardians will balance the White Tower Servants but remain separate.

Who said they'll still be called the Guardians? The foretelling can easily be read the mean "the induction of the Guardians among their numbers will balance the Servants". Nothing about what they'll be called after that.

Also, as for the "tainted Black Tower", that could very well be Logain's glory to come...he cleanses the taint and is remembered as a greater hero than even Rand as ages pass and memories fade, etc etc.

I have no doubt Logain will attack Taim's faction, and the BT will be "rent in fire and blood". But that doesn't preclude cooperation with the Aes Sedai. For one thing, the Dreamspike will keep him out, which means Egwene will probably get involved. Perrin too, I think.

Within the Black Tower, a Red Sister and an Asha'man are going to start working together, and there are fifty Aes Sedai sitting outside the Tower already. The Black Tower clean out is clearly going to be a joint effort, only strengthening my point that it will fuel a merger.

Originally Posted by Master Ablar

The whole Black Tower or just Taim's palace?

Does it make a difference? I read somewhere that the block of stone that Taim (and Rand) give speeches and such was also Shayol Ghul rock. If so, eww, and all the more reason for Asha'man to want to get the hell away.

The Ashaman don't exactly have a good reputation already do they? I doubt it getting a little worse will make them decide to give up who they are.

They don't have a bad rep. I mean sure, they're considered scary, and fated to go mad, and destructive. But they aren't seen as actively evil. But that could change if Taim and his Asha'man start blowing things up, and they well could start with Caemlynn.

If Taim's Ashaman go out and do massive damage then they're not Ashaman.

How so? Taim is their leader. If Egwene and her alles in the Tower go berserk and start destroying innocent lives, will the world not say "the White Tower did this, the Aes Sedai did this"?

The Ashaman who was with Ituralde made it clear that any men who fought with the shadow was no Ashaman.

But that sounds hollow when your leader himself fights with the Shadow.

Why would the Ashaman bend to the public opinion of them?

Why won't they? A mature and politically powerful organization like the Tower bent to public pressure two thousand years ago and started binding their sisters. The Asha'man have zero political power, and are unlikely to gain much once their reputation is destroyed by Taim.

As for being rent in fire and blood, that's rather vague. Is it the whole BT, parts of it, or just Taim's palace?

The whole of it. The Foretelling says, "the Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire".

To rend is:

1.to separate into parts with force or violence: The storm rent the ship to pieces.
2.to tear apart, split, or divide: a racial problem that is rending the nation.
3.to pull or tear violently (often followed by away, off, up, etc.).
4.to tear (one's garments or hair) in grief, rage, etc.
5.to disturb (the air) sharply with loud noise.

The Black Tower is going to be broken, and blood and fire will be involved. And that foretelling is well on its way to being fulfilled.

If nothing else they can just rebuild it. Being Ashaman actually gave them a purpose. They're not going to let Taim take that away from them.

Being Asha'man gave them a wrong purpose. Rand built the entire organization on the idea that they would be kamikaze soldiers for the Last Battle. With saidin cleansed, that no longer holds. Rand himself has asked for word to be spread that they are no longer weapons, in the scene where he asked to be called Rand Sedai, no less!

Trust me, with LTT's memories, Rand knows what a powerful force the male and female channelers can be together. Yes, he has been, and may again be, frustrated by the women. But the argument for them to be a combined organization is very very strong, withing the books, and thematically as well.

The Aes Sedai in the rebel camp didn't seem to have a very good opinion of male channellers.

Yes. The taint was still there, at that point, or they didn't know it was cleansed.

The Aes Sedai don't like male channellers any more than the rest of the population. If anything they like them less. And they definitely don't see them as equals.

Yes, that is true, with the taint. Without the taint is a different matter. I'm not saying they will all hold hands and sing Kumbayah. But there are going to be any number of Aes Sedai who will argue for men to be included too. Any number of them will want to now study and make use of saidin, since it is safe. Unlike the general public, they have no fear of the OP and were afraid of saidin because of the taint. The Browns will leap to learn about it now that it is usable.

They didn't hate wilders, they just looked down upon them. And I doubt the opinion of the majority of the Aes Sedai has changed all that much. As for the Ajah's it was recent, and to a far lesser extent then with male channellers. You don't see signs of it now because Egwene told them all they were acting like fools. Egwene's opinion of male channellers is no different than that of the rest of the Aes Sedai's.

You're right that Egwene had to beat them into shape. And Egwene has a very different view of the Asha'man than the general Aes Sedai:

"And the Asha'man?" Egwene said softly, unable to keep a hint of discomfort out of her voice. "Will we insist that all angreal and sa'angreal created for men belong to us, though we cannot use them? What if there are Asha'man who learn to create objects of Power? Will we force them to give up everything they create to us? Could we enforce that?"

She is still uncomfortable with the idea of the Asha'man, but has no problem seeing the illogic of keeping what is rightly theirs from them. And...

Elaida would reign supreme, and in a year, nobody would remember how she usurped the
Amyrlin Seat. She'd destroy the Tower, for sure. You know she'd mishandle everything about Rand. I would not be surprised if she had tried to kidnap him by now, except that she's concerned with us. Well, maybe not kidnap, but she'd have done something. Likely, Aes Sedai would be fighting Asha'man today, and never mind Tarmon Gai'don waiting over the horizon."

And where other Aes Sedai saw no issues in altering the bond to allow compulsion and remove shared feelings and laying this on Asha'man, she firmly forebade it.

Lastly, of course, she let Logain free, and wanted him to join the Black Tower. You don't let off a powerful channeler to join an organization that you don't have any positive thoughts on.

Depends on what you mean by "too long". I definitely think that it's the new generation of Aes Sedai who eventually bring about change, but how long will it take for them to gain influence in the WT? And the new generation still lived in a world where male channellers were feared and hated. It might take a generation that has never known the taint to finally cause a complete shift in the WT over the matter.

And that would be true in normal times, which these are not. Already, Aes Sedai have bonded, or been bonded by Asha'man, and most of them have positive relationships. If a Red can come to love an Asha'man who forcibly bonded her when she was on her way to murder him... what exactly makes you think a greater acceptance of male-female unity will become impossible?

Not to mention, any number of things that never happened for thousands of years have changed. For three thousand years, the Tower did not accept the presence of any other channeling organization. Now it officially recognizes two, and will send its students to train with them! After a thousand years, Tear has a King. After three thousand years of infighting and feuding, the Aiel are a solidly unified body, and we even expect them to give up fighting and become followers of the Way of the Leaf! After thousands of years, there is an openly Aes Sedai queen. After three thousand years of outward unity, the Aes Sedai openly split up...

So many things have changed, all because of the Dragon Rebron's influence, and that of his friend's and allies. Why would this issue be any different?

Because she saw the flame and the fang. That doesn't change the fact that the description is not that of the old Aes Sedai symbol. Incidentally her thought are incorrect anyway since the Dragon is not the leader of the male channeller. Or at least he is not meant to be.

The Dragon is the leader of male channelers now. So I fail to see why she is wrong, especially since she says nothing of male channelers, but of Dragon and Amyrlin ruling Tar Valon side by side.

And look at the Aes Symbol again. You can describe it as "the flame above, and the fang below". If you pick any image, you'll see that the uppermost part of the symbol is a tiny strip from the flame, and a tiny strip from the fang forms the bottom-most part. And seeing it makes Egwene think of "another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled
Tar Valon side by side".

Logain is smart enough to realize that gentling him was a bad move for Egwene anyway.

It was? Egwene could have gained much political capital by swiftly making a decision and having him gentled.

Logain barely knows her.

Where did I claim they were intimate friends?

Egwene spent months with Wise Ones. And even if he respects her, maybe even likes her, that doesn't change the fact that it's not in the best interests of the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai at the moment.

Why isn't it in the best interests of the Asha'man? They get instant legitimacy. Membership into the most powerful political organization in the world. Access to huge funds, political independence, a humungous army, a huge repository of knowledge, a huge repository of OP objects... I'm struggling to find the downside here.

You really think it's going to change that quickly?

Yes. Because a lot of other stuff has changed equally quickly. This isn't called a "time of change" for nothing.

Cadsuane and Merise don't believe that the Ashaman should be equal to the Aes Sedai and they've been working with them for a while now.

I don't know about Merise, but Cadsuane had no compunctions in letting a man lead a circle with two Aes Sedai in it. She's all about competence, not gender, or strength in the Power. And with saidin clean, I don't see her having any objections to men and women being equal.

Sure the Aes Sedai will fight with the Ashaman at the Last Battle, but that doesn't mean they'll get to know each other all that well.

Really? You link all the time, save each others life, and with your efforts, help save the world, but you don't get to know each other? How many army units do you know of where the soldiers work together but don't get to know one another?

The Aes Sedai will see that the Ashaman are terribly effictive in battle but they already knew thanks to Dumai's Wells.

What they don't generally know, or don't really appreciate, is how much more powerful mixed gender circles are.

Their opinion of male channellers is ingrained in them,

But is based on a reality that doesn't hold anymore. Aes Sedai have had all sorts of things ingrained in them that they coolly started disregarding the moment someone disproved it to them. Nynaeve just had to show them one weave where she used Earth and Fire in Healing and the Yellows started discussing how to incorporate it in their Healing and came up with a host of other weaves that do so. They only had to be shown that innovation with the OP was possible and they started doing it too. They only had to be shown that the Black Ajah did exist and they unblinkingly started planning how to finish them off. Given the wide breadth of Aes Sedai who have worked well with Asha'man, including Red Sisters, what makes you think they will refuse to accept men as equal when the advantages are shown to them?

and time is the only thing that'll make it truly go away, same as the taint like Elza told Rand.

Elza spoke to Rand about the taint? I don't remember this.

But while time will indeed be important for a normal, well balanced Aes Sedai organization to come into being, the acceptance that this needs to be done, that men and women need to work together again... that won't take very long at all. I'm fairly sure the whole "lets allow the Asha'man to join us and raise them as Aes Sedai" thing will happen in the space of one meeting of the Hall of the Tower. Probably the last such meeting of the current Hall.

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by suttree

But there is still a starting point between the two characters. The fact the Eggy was the one to jump start his new life will not sit lightly with him. You can't underestimate how huge that was his mind for her to make that move. Without it all his "glory" down the road would be impossible.

And he also said he owes a debt to Nynaeve. And it isn't like Nynaeve isn't going to be enthusiastic about men and women becoming Aes Sedai. She already wants AS to have families. Letting men become members of the Tower will help that. Plus, she discovered the way to make men lose even their last vestiges of madness. They're going to be very greatful for that, and its going to drive home the point that the men need the women and the women need the men.

[Res_Ipsa]

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian

remembering his humanity is critical to his success, and that's exactly what Cadsuane agreed to try to do.

I always felt that what she had to teach Rand and the Asha'man fell closely along the lines of what you are saying. She cannot teach them anything to do w/ the power. She cannot teach them any ancient secrets because her PoV's seem to indicate her astonishment w/ the wonder girls' discoveries. What is left? I think Cadsuane represents order, w/ Tam being the balancing factor. Just a thought, but when I read a Cadsuane PoV, it strikes me she is just one side of the coin. Tam may not even be the balancing factor, but rather one of the parts required to balance Rand. Perhaps Min, Elayne and Aviendha are part of that as well. I do not think Cadsuane is a balancing factor. Her whole goal is to get Rand to TG alive but beyond that, who knows. Also, in one of her PoV's it was said:

“I do not care a fig for your Coramoor," Cadsuane continued, her voice still mild. All the figs in the world for the Dragon Reborn, but not one for the Coramoor.

What is the significance of that? I do not know, but it is keeping w/ my thought that Cadsuane's role is very linear and w/out the balancing factors, would be hopeless.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Cadsuane Sedai, Black Tower lecturer in etiquette. I'm wondering who they will get to be the dancing instructor.

[Ishara]

I'll look in a bit, but we don't know what's happening to the second palace that Elaida had been building, do we? I don't think it was destroyed in the Seanchan attack, and it sort of fits beautifully that it could be the new Headquarters for the Asha'man...

And to go back to the OP - I don't think you can have order without balance, one leads to the other in my opinion, so it fits.

ETA - Found it!

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 5 - Writings
Below, he could see the new Warder practice grounds. The old ones were dug up where Elaida had begun building her palace. Nobody was sure what Egwene would end up doing with the construction.

[Davian93]

Who said they'll still be called the Guardians? The foretelling can easily be read the mean "the induction of the Guardians among their numbers will balance the Servants". Nothing about what they'll be called after that.

That's a bit of a reach that is unsupported by facts in evidence.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa

What is the significance of that? I do not know, but it is keeping w/ my thought that Cadsuane's role is very linear and w/out the balancing factors, would be hopeless.

I agree she is very linear in her thinking. I always took her dismissal of the Coramoor title as proof that she only cares that he save the world and fulfill the various Prophecies, she is not concerned with saving specific countries, people, ethnicities, nor is she trying to save EVERYONE. Defeating the DO is the goal, period. If that kills and/or destroys entire cultures it is unfortunate, but quite honestly very likely to happen.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by SauceyBlueConfetti

I agree she is very linear in her thinking. I always took her dismissal of the Coramoor title as proof that she only cares that he save the world and fulfill the various Prophecies, she is not concerned with saving specific countries, people, ethnicities, nor is she trying to save EVERYONE. Defeating the DO is the goal, period. If that kills and/or destroys entire cultures it is unfortunate, but quite honestly very likely to happen.

Being willing to sacrifice the Sea Folk if that's what it takes to save the world may be ruthless, but it could be defended as moral, perhaps. (Or perhaps not. It would at least be an interesting discussion.)

But dismissing all the information one could gather from the Jendai Prophecy merely because it wasn't made by an AS (or whatever reason Cadsuane has for ignoring it) seems rather iffy.

Perhaps, if Cadsuane had done what prophecy required of her, things would've turned out a lot better already:

Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 19, The Wavedancer

"The Prophecy is being fulfilled. He is the Coramoor. Aes Sedai serve him. You are proof of that, that you are here in this city. That is in the Prophecy as well. 'The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.'"

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by Davian93

That's a bit of a reach that is unsupported by facts in evidence.

Okay... what facts would those be?

[Davian93]

Originally Posted by fionwe1987

Okay... what facts would those be?

The ones you dont have to support your conjecture.

We have a single Foretelling that talks of the Ashaman balancing the Servants not becoming part of them.

[fionwe1987]

Originally Posted by Davian93

The ones you dont have to support your conjecture.

That's not what you said before.

We have a single Foretelling that talks of the Ashaman balancing the Servants not becoming part of them.

We have a Foretelling that is open to interpretation, and tons of hints in the book, and arguments based on the thematic focus of the series, to guide us to the interpretation that men and women will form one organization.

You can add something to something existing to balance it. Two things can exist separately and balance each other. The Foretelling could mean either thing, but we know more that points to the former interpretation.

If you have something that points to the latter, then give those quotes. If not...