The (last?) Demandred thread

[Res_Ipsa]

Originally Posted by Davian93

Which would roughly fall in with the timeline because, IIRC, Graendal snatched them sometime in FoH or LoC for a meeting with Sammael and Demandred got his list of instructions at the beginning of LoC. The DO very easily could have told him to go take over Shara and build him a massive army of Dreadlords.

Here's the quote I was thinking of (from LoC, not FoH)



So she snatched them right after Demandred's meeting at Shayol Ghul and after Demandred met with her, Mesaana and Semi in the prologue. Its very possible that Demandred took over Shara right after that with the absence of any real leadership and to "let the Lord of Chaos rule" as directed by the DO.

If it is Shara, I was thinking it would be a situation similar to the Easterlings in LotR. They are just there, and something else to pile on to the forces of good. I am certainly hoping it does not go the way of GRRM and introduce a needless plot thread so late in the story.

[Rand al'Fain]

Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa

If it is Shara, I was thinking it would be a situation similar to the Easterlings in LotR. They are just there, and something else to pile on to the forces of good. I am certainly hoping it does not go the way of GRRM and introduce a needless plot thread so late in the story.

They weren't pointless! At least not the 50 foot tall monster elephants that trampled anything and everything, that also inspired such things as the oliphaunt cheat in Rome Total War (big freakin elephants that trample everything in their path).

[Southpaw2012]

He can really only be King Roedran if he's disguised at all. Both RJ and Brandon have said that we have not seen Demandred on screen disguised as anyone and that fits the criteria so far of it being Roedran since he has been mentioned but not seen. And the whole thing about him not showing up at the Fields of Merrilor like the other rulers is suspicious. Being in Murandy, he could easily form an army of not just Trollocs and shadowspawn but soldiers enough since as has been said, Murandians and Andorans have not been on good terms over the years. There are many other reasons but yeah overall, I'd say he's either King Roedran or no one and he's just hiding with an army.

[Tomp]

If he is Roedran then he walks around with a changed appearance all the time.

Every other forsaken that has set themselves up as rulers has arrived as a new Lord and taken over.
Sammael - Brend
Be'lal - Samon
Rahvin - Gaebril

Then thee are those that position themselves in a organisation/army/nation without leading it, but rather influence people.
They generally take the identity of someone unknown or someone who's been away for a time.
Semirhage
Mesaana
Osan'gar
Aran'gar

There are also the ones who don't have rule over any nation and/or organisation.
Lanfear
Moghegdien
Asmodean
Graendal (she have/had a power base, but not a great army or organisation)

(These are earlier conditions before Lanfear and Moghegdien became "slaves" to Moridin.)


Now what does this mean for Demandred being King Roedran.

Just this.
If he is Roedran then he has gone his own way, compared to his fellow forsaken colleagues and portrayed a ruler that many people have seen and interacted with.

I'm not saying that he isn't Roedran.
I'm saying that if he is, then he's gone a different route from anyone else of the forsaken.

[Zombie Sammael]

Demandred likes using proxies. There's no reason why King Roedran of Murandy couldn't be a proxy of his rather than Demandred himself.

[Tomp]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

Demandred likes using proxies. There's no reason why King Roedran of Murandy couldn't be a proxy of his rather than Demandred himself.

Just wondering.
Where can I find that info?

I don't mistrust you. As I said, I was just wondering.

[Southpaw2012]

Originally Posted by Tomp

Just wondering.
Where can I find that info?

I don't mistrust you. As I said, I was just wondering.

It was said during a Forsaken scene (can't remember which book but I think it was between Sammael and Graendal) and it was said that Demandred liked to use proxies

[The Unreasoner]

Originally Posted by Southpaw2012

It was said during a Forsaken scene (can't remember which book but I think it was between Sammael and Graendal) and it was said that Demandred liked to use proxies

Originally Posted by LoC, Ch. 6

“So Demandred knows you and I meet,” he said flatly. Why had he ever expected to receive more than driblets from her?


“Of course he does. Not how much I tell you, but that I tell you something. I am trying to bring us together, Sammael, before it is too—”


He cut in sharply. “You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to.” Events to the south had Demandred’s mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. “Tell him to be careful. I won’t have him or his friends interfering in my plans.” Perhaps he could direct al’Thor’s attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. “So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.” There had been a long struggle after the Bore was opened into the Great Lord’s prison, many years before enough strength was gathered to move openly. This time, when the final seal was shattered, he would present the Great Lord with nations ready to follow. If they did not know who they followed, what did that matter? He would not fail, as Be’lal and Rahvin had. The Great Lord would see who served him best. “You tell him!”

If it turns out that Demandred has just been dicking around in Murandy, I'll burn the e-book onto a disc so that I can burn it for real. I don't mind Roehdran being a DF under Demandred, but if that's the big secret....

[Tomp]

Thanks.
I'd forgotten that.

Maybe it's time for a new reread.

[Heinz]

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain

They weren't pointless! At least not the 50 foot tall monster elephants that trampled anything and everything, that also inspired such things as the oliphaunt cheat in Rome Total War (big freakin elephants that trample everything in their path).

Those stupid things were so freaking annoyingly effective, even in the Rome: Total Realism mod. :-/ (Sorry, late to the party. Wasn't paying attention.)

[GonzoTheGreat]

Mice. Those would rout those elephants quite efficiently, and they're not a very significant thread to your army on the battle field.

[rand]

I don't know if I buy the Demandred=Roedran idea. It's not that I don't think it makes sense, but it seems too easy to figure out. Looking at what Brandon says about this being the mystery of the series, Roedran seems too simple: all you have to do is combine Demandred's own quote that he "rules" somewhere, coupled with RJ/BS quotes that we haven't seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen, and Roedran is the only real option--hardly a big mystery.

If Demandred is Roedran (which I admit does look likely, if only from a few small clues in the books) then that can't be all there is to Demandred.

In my opinion, he's gathering/ruling/leading the male Aiel channelers that were sent to the Blight. I think there are a few clues throughout the series that could point to this:

One is the whole Taimandred thing. While it's (hopefully) obvious now that Taim isn't Demandred, I believe there is a reason why there was such a connection made between the two: it's a clue that Demandred is doing the same thing as Taim. Possibly one of the reason Taimandred seemed to piss off RJ so much is that this clue was being misinterpreted altogether, rather than it just being a false theory.

Secondly, the attack on Demira. I haven't read LoC in a while (I'm on FoH with my reread) but I believe she is attacked by black-eyed Aiel. While it seemed obvious at the time that these were not really Aiel, I think the red-veiled "Aiel" at the end of ToM casts this at least somewhat into doubt. It would also, I think, explain some of what Demandred did in LoC (ie, explain what the DO was so happy over at the end). Demandred is implied to have had a big impact in the events of LoC, but it hasn't (to my knowledge) really been figured out yet. I believe that Demandred used these Aiel to turn Rand against the Salidar AS and toward the Tower AS, therefore leading to Rand's capture and the general chaos that ensued from it.

Finally, there's the issue of Aiel with black eyes being a possibility in the first place. I think there are a few mentions of black-eyed Aiel in the series, but admittedly they are likely mistakes. What I find somewhat compelling, though, is the fact that there is an Aiel warrior society actually called Black Eyes (Seia Doon). I don't think their role in Aiel society is ever explained. Maybe this is some lost bit of Aiel knowledge or whatever regarding what can happen to corrupted Aiel?

Anyway, that's my two cents, admittedly all very vague for now. I'm not sure if I really believe it myself to be honest, but I don't see a whole lot of merit in any other Demandred theories either, really.

[Boli]

The only thing about the Black Eyes sociaty which is mentioned in any detail is they are Couladin's sociaty and they are one of the "go-to" sociatywhen you need information forced out of a prisoner, (along with maidiens)

Not exactly a stellar reputation - especially given the associated description for Aiel is "black-eyed" in the wetland (contradicting the fact most Aiel do NOT have black/dark eyes.

I for one definatly think Demandred is in Murrandy and he may be assisting in bringing order to the region as that is one part of the entire series which is never explained.

HOW and WHY he is doing it and more importantly what his final plans are is the mystery.

[rand]

I kind of thought the torturing thing was a secondary function of the Black Eyes, as it seems to be for the Maidens mentioned in the same paragraph (their main function is scouting). And as the Aiel themselves named the Black Eyes, I don't think they did it because they think they have a sinister reputation or something.

While I agree there's a lot of evidence for Murandy, it seems like it should already have been revealed that Demandred was there if it's only what he's doing there/why he's there that's important.

[Zombie Sammael]

It's worth pointing out that among the other Forsaken who took control of nations, it was obvious that they were there and what they were doing, not only because they didn't really hide it very well, but also because a sort of pallor settled of the capital cities, presumably a side effect of the Forsaken's depth in the Shadow. Since we've not been to Lugard, we don't know if that's what's happened there, but it also hasn't been mentioned by anyone who has. Which is part of what makes me think Roedran is merely a proxy.

[Grig]

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael

Since we've not been to Lugard, we don't know if that's what's happened there, but it also hasn't been mentioned by anyone who has. Which is part of what makes me think Roedran is merely a proxy.

Actually, we have been to Lugard. TFoH, chapter 11. Siuan and co. are passing through, and it's where they find out about Salidar. It doesn't read the same as other towns with Forsaken, but if Dem is as big a deal as he's painted to be, he'd be warding his dreams. The other Forsaken that took over towns were not so careful, and this was mentioned in the text by Moiraine IIRC.

[Tomp]

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain

They weren't pointless! At least not the 50 foot tall monster elephants that trampled anything and everything, that also inspired such things as the oliphaunt cheat in Rome Total War (big freakin elephants that trample everything in their path).

One famous historical method for disrupting elephant units was the war pig.
Ancient writers believed that "elephants are scared by the smallest squeal of a pig" and the vulnerability was exploited.
At the Megara siege during the Diadochi wars, for example, the Megarians reportedly poured oil on a herd of pigs, set them alight, and drove them towards the enemy's massed war elephants.
The elephants bolted in terror from the flaming squealing pigs.

[rand]

Whether or not Demandred is Roedran himself or he's simply controlling the guy, I don' t get the importance of Murandy. I did, admittedly, just read a quote a little while ago in FoH (I think from Bryne) saying that a united Murandy would be a strong force, but still, it would surely be all but irrelevant at the Last Battle...?

When it comes down to it, Demandred controlling Murandy seems almost irrelevant, true as it might be, because there is nothing (that I know of, at least) that Demandred could be doing in Murandy that has anything to do specifically with Murandy (ie, there's nothing he could do in Murandy that he couldn't do elsewhere).

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by rand

Whether or not Demandred is Roedran himself or he's simply controlling the guy, I don' t get the importance of Murandy. I did, admittedly, just read a quote a little while ago in FoH (I think from Bryne) saying that a united Murandy would be a strong force, but still, it would surely be all but irrelevant at the Last Battle...?

When it comes down to it, Demandred controlling Murandy seems almost irrelevant, true as it might be, because there is nothing (that I know of, at least) that Demandred could be doing in Murandy that has anything to do specifically with Murandy (ie, there's nothing he could do in Murandy that he couldn't do elsewhere).

Look at the map of the Westlands, and note where Murandy is. Add in the possibility of a Waygate or two, a Portal Stone, and you can quickly and more importantly,quietly build up a huge number of Trollocs and Myrddraal.

[rand]

Assuming you're referring to the attack on Caemlyn, wouldn't it be easier to send the Trollocs directly to Caemlyn through some random, out of the way Waygate than go through the trouble of taking over Murandy, bringing an army of Trollocs there (presumably by Waygate), and then sending them all through a Waygate again to go to Caemlyn?

In other words, there's no need to build up an army in Murandy, assuming the Trollocs can be transported directly to Caemlyn.