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  #61  
Old 06-04-2015, 07:45 AM
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-bangs ahead against cuendillar wall-

Is this thread itself made of cuendillar or something?
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  #62  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Look at how Perrin gets a bunch of Asha'man from Rand to help with making weapons:...
Power-wrought weapons are NOT made of Cuendillar. Also is seems any Asha'man can make power-wrought weapons -- or at least add the "power" while conventional smiths add the "wrought."

Power-wrought weapons also don't require individual fitting where "armor" does; whether it is converted to cuendillar later or not.
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  #63  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
-bangs ahead against cuendillar wall-

Is this thread itself made of cuendillar or something?
You're only making it stronger, you know.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Power-wrought weapons are NOT made of Cuendillar. Also is seems any Asha'man can make power-wrought weapons -- or at least add the "power" while conventional smiths add the "wrought."
True. Then again, at that point it doesn't seem as if any Asha'man knows how to make cuendillar, so their failure to do this is understandable, even acceptable. They do what they can as well as they can manage.

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Power-wrought weapons also don't require individual fitting where "armor" does; whether it is converted to cuendillar later or not.
As Terry Pratchett (I think it was him) said about army-supplied armor: it came in "one size fits nobody".

Still, for a bunch of people (Mat, Lan, and other fighting commanders) making fitting armor and then turning it into really good armor would not seem unreasonable. Especially given the fact that such cuendillar armor could be made from thinner metal, which makes it easier to shape and lighter to wear.
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  #64  
Old 06-04-2015, 10:25 PM
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You're only making it stronger, you know.
There is absolutely no way to test that claim and you know it, Gonzo!
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  #65  
Old 06-10-2015, 06:27 PM
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Cool Cuendillar Armor

This debate has been brought up many times in the past. I must admit that I am surprised by who the Theoryland proponents seem to be. Either they have changed their positions in this debate or they were quiet any other time I've seen this debate come up.

There is 1 main point that can be debated when it comes to Cuendillar Armor. Below I've listed 3 but we can cross #1 off the list because it is a non issue and #2 off the list because we don't have enough information.

1. That it can be done
2. Usefulness
3. Feasibility


1 - With a smidgen of creativity anyone can figure out how to convert chain mail to cuendillar without fusing the links together. This would likely be one of the more difficult pieces of armor to convert. I can't imagine it would be very difficult to figure out how to convert any piece of armor to cuendillar. This is a non issue and can be crossed off the list above.

2 - We cannot define this point because we do not know all of the properties of cuendillar. For example: Does cuendillar allow the transfer of energy? What is the relationship between friction and cuendillar? What is the difference in weight for a piece of iron before and after it is converted? etc...

That brings us to the remaining point. In order to properly debate it, some definition is required.

3 - Are we talking about equipping an entire army? Generals? Royalty? Warders? Also -- Who would be converting the armor? Aes Sedai? Asha'man?

The parameters of point #3 above can be manipulated any # of ways... even to a point where the armor would be feasible under various configurations.
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  #66  
Old 06-11-2015, 03:44 AM
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3 - Are we talking about equipping an entire army? Generals? Royalty? Warders?
How about Forsaken?
They had some reason to worry about being killed, and presumably at least some of them would have known this weave.

Quote:
Also -- Who would be converting the armor? Aes Sedai? Asha'man?
Dreadlords. They have to be useful for something, don't they?
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  #67  
Old 06-18-2015, 01:08 AM
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I was doing some re-reading and thought of cuendillar armor before seeing this thread.

I think a brigandine would be the way to best make cuendillar, with small plates fastened together with small bolts and top caps made of the same, worn over a thick as hell quilted gambeson.
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  #68  
Old 06-18-2015, 04:32 AM
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I was doing some re-reading and thought of cuendillar armor before seeing this thread.

I think a brigandine would be the way to best make cuendillar, with small plates fastened together with small bolts and top caps made of the same, worn over a thick as hell quilted gambeson.
How many individual pieces would that entail?

Bear in mind that as far as we know, it takes roughly the same amount of time to convert a screw as it does a cuirass or a harbor chain and for most of Egwene's cuendillar weavers, that is a bit over one shift of cuendillar making.
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  #69  
Old 06-30-2015, 04:30 PM
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Rand sees the advantage almost immediately. Perrin sees it. The Maidens see it. But in the whole of Tar Valon, either no one understands this or no one dares mention it to any AS. - Gonzo
This seems to forget that all but Egwene and the other new recruits have sworn on the oath rod not to ever make weapons. The Tower has a thousand plus year tradition of not making weapons, it may not be that no one thought of it, as much as the fact that they were predisposed to shy away from the very idea.

It definitely would make sense to at least arm the Generals and warders and they probably could have done so had they made that a priority, but I don't think they would have. Also, keep in mind that when they had the leisure time to make it they didn't have the knowledge. Once they did have the knowledge they were pretty preoccupied. The lead up to the last battle was slow... slow... slow... and BAM there it was right in their faces.

As for the AOL AS, they didn't seem to have any compunction against making weapons and arming at least their officers with power wrought weapons, but again, given the evidence of how little cuendillar exists, I'd say it is likely that it's making was restricted.

The reality is that Jordan probably didn't consider it, or if he did chose to ignore it.
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  #70  
Old 07-01-2015, 03:22 AM
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This seems to forget that all but Egwene and the other new recruits have sworn on the oath rod not to ever make weapons. The Tower has a thousand plus year tradition of not making weapons, it may not be that no one thought of it, as much as the fact that they were predisposed to shy away from the very idea.
I am not talking about giving them weapons; I am talking about giving them shields and armour.

If the Warders had had cuendillar shields, then they could have protected themselves and their AS from just about anything including balefire with them. Now, as it was, dozens, maybe hundreds, of AS were killed with balefire because they could do nothing against it. Could those AS have done any good if they had survived? Almost certainly. Would they have done anything worthwhile if they had lived? That's less clear, what with them being AS and all, but I think the AS should have been willing to give it a try.
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  #71  
Old 07-01-2015, 06:39 AM
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Does Cuendillar actually protect from BF in that way? It might be that while it resists balefire itself, anything cntained within or otherwise in the path of the BF still gets destroyed. Have we seen Cuendillar used to protect at all?
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  #72  
Old 07-01-2015, 07:57 AM
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No. Would it be safe to extrapolate from that ignorance?

After her fight with Moghedien and Jeaine Caide, Nynaeve failed to do a proper investigation of the effects of the cuendillar figurines that had been temporarily caught in the balefire beam.
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  #73  
Old 09-24-2015, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
The very obvious answer is "The author never thought of it".


So...yeah.
I doubt that very much. Rj was a soldier and he knows what it means to have bullets zipping all about. They would have have loved cuendillar shields in Vietnam, or even just kelvar. I think the reasons why we hadn't seen any attempt as of kod were far more practical.
One problem is spies. If Egwene and co tried to make cuendillar shields ahead of TLB, how will the shadow react? produce their own shields? kidnap the AS that are supposed to make them? Or would Egwene even be able to think of it with Arangar tampering with her head?
The pattern could have come up with a solution and maybe that was the direction it was heading but other things would have to come first including rooting out the dfs.
The other problem is that the cuendillar seals had been broken. so it would be necessary to be sure it wouldn't be a massive waste of effort and a source of false hope.
The foxhead was actually better but Rand also knew weaves that could protect against the use of the OP. If the dfs had been rooted out, he could have passed on the weaves and given the FoL a better chance.
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  #74  
Old 05-15-2016, 01:40 PM
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Hmmm ... initial thinking is that armor doesn't protect from an arrow to the eye or a sword thrust in any opening. And it won't protect from an OP weave that burns the body or stops the heart. At the end of the day it is using a very expensive material for a mundane tool.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:15 AM
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An arrow to the eye is cheating. Plus, Myrddraal have a solution for that problem (Mat did that half way), so it is only an issue for the less competent anyway.
And while OP weaves to stop the heart could be a problem, they would only work if they can penetrate the armor in the first place. Since cuendillar would stop them, such a weave would have to sneak in through any opening in that armor, and I doubt many of those weaves are designed for such acrobatics.
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  #76  
Old 05-16-2016, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
An arrow to the eye is cheating. Plus, Myrddraal have a solution for that problem (Mat did that half way), so it is only an issue for the less competent anyway.
And while OP weaves to stop the heart could be a problem, they would only work if they can penetrate the armor in the first place. Since cuendillar would stop them, such a weave would have to sneak in through any opening in that armor, and I doubt many of those weaves are designed for such acrobatics.
I understand plate armor as separate plate pieces covering exposed body parts, not full casts to cover the whole body or body part. Say leg armor greaves cover the front of the leg whereas the calfs are totally exposed. Same goes for arms (i.e. armpit if a soldier raises his arm), thighs. This is essential to allow mobility and reduce hindrance to using weapons as much as possible. That way a weave doesn't have to be highly agile to pass the armor. Fire under a soldier's feet would still burn non-cuendellar covered areas; and shrapnel could still hit exposed body parts.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:47 AM
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It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.
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  #78  
Old 05-17-2016, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.
Hard to say, really, if they would have been unaffected. If they had Mat's medallion, which repulses/negates channeling, they would have been fine. But just regular cuendillar? Nothing says that it repulses One Power weaves. Just that trying to use the OP on it makes it stronger.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.
As to the Great Captains and their questionable plan at the start of AMoL ... Rand had the right of it during Darth Rand time. One army, huge, unstoppable, moving by gateway to different battle fronts and eliminate fragmented enemy armies. Leader from the start is Mat (ta'veren pull). but hey, hindsight is 20/20!

But I like the cuendillar night caps
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:19 AM
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Hey, if you're busy hindsightering, then I can play that too.

Use small Gateways for scouting purposes; this will enable you to figure out how the Trollocs get supplied. Then attack those supply stations, leaving the millions of Trollocs spread all over the land to either starve to death or to spread out so that they can be easily exterminated in small groups.
Use Gateways to send (and retrieve) cavalry who attack the flanks and rear of the Trolloc armies.
Use Gateways to attack the Trollocs and such who are trying to get through that pass leading to Shayol Ghul. That was a terrain made for Deathgates, which weren't used there as far as I remember.

For the Shadow:
Take out the AS with a night attack, instead of the heroic but fairly stupid large scale assault while the AS are already ready for almost anything that their genius commander now chose to use.
Use the Sharans to take out the Shayol Ghul forces when Mat expects them to come to Merrilor (where the Trollocs can provide days of entertainment on their own).
Attack the logistics of the enemy, rather than the fighters who can kill you.
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