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  #21  
Old 10-05-2015, 10:15 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.
We don't know that she was THE most skilled female channeler. Graendal may have matcher or exceeded her, and Egwene might have, with time and the right education. But yes, I do expect her to be a more dexterous weaver of the Power than Rand or Ishamael.
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  #22  
Old 10-05-2015, 05:49 PM
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She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.
Having a good looking women on a research team isn't a negative. I don't know if she was. There are some things that suggest she may not have been the most adept in the aol. But its really circumstantial. Sure she has the potential to be best spinner,but really depends how much she had applied herself. Did she ever earn a third name?
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  #23  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:22 PM
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Having a good looking women on a research team isn't a negative. I don't know if she was. There are some things that suggest she may not have been the most adept in the aol. But its really circumstantial. Sure she has the potential to be best spinner,but really depends how much she had applied herself. Did she ever earn a third name?
Third names were given for achievement that benefitted soceity, not skill. Lanfear could have been the greatest channeler of the Age, and she still wouldn't have gotten a third name unless she did something useful with it.

What circumstantial evidence exists that she was not the most adept, btw?
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2015, 01:35 AM
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What circumstantial evidence exists that she was not the most adept, btw?
She was a Forsaken?

All of the Forsaken were more interested in "Power" than they were in working for anything; they all had someone else to blame for their various failures
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:48 AM
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She was a Forsaken?

All of the Forsaken were more interested in "Power" than they were in working for anything; they all had someone else to blame for their various failures
That's proof for, not against. The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen, and Lanfear was among the six who sat at the pinnacle of their hierarchy. There was constant scheming and backstabbing, and all of the top six were way better than the others.
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2015, 04:15 AM
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That's proof for, not against. The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen, and Lanfear was among the six who sat at the pinnacle of their hierarchy. There was constant scheming and backstabbing, and all of the top six were way better than the others.
The Dark One depended on his human minions to evaluate other minions. Lanfear was very, very good at channeling, but like all of the Forsaken, she was not as good as she could be -- or as good as she thought she was.

Lanfear, in particular, defined herself by the status of her lover -- LTT was the best at everything and therefore the only suitable consort for Lanfear.
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2015, 04:51 AM
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If Rand always had Callandor with him, the story would be fucked up and turn into a short quest where Rand instantly destroys every of his enemy.
This is like another question: if in AOL they could make things like Callandor and CK, how the world didn't get destroyed at all.

Also most of Rand's problems came not from Callandor, but from his inability to kill a woman.
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She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful
She was like 300-400 years IIRC and there were channelers who were 2 times older (700 years), I would say some of them should be more skilled.
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The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen
None of them were able to even make an angreal (they dependent on what they found in WT or wherever).

Last edited by SomeOneElse; 10-06-2015 at 04:57 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2015, 05:18 AM
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Lanfear, in particular, defined herself by the status of her lover -- LTT was the best at everything and therefore the only suitable consort for Lanfear.
Her behavior was that of someone who was very insecure about herself. She felt the need to buttress her sense of superiority with things outside herself, like Lews Therin, and like a source of Power with the potential to eradicate the gender differences she was accustomed to.

That insecurity had to some from somewhere, and if she really was such a great researcher, she would have done something to earn that third name, because it was a status symbol and a potential source of power. That's probably why she chose research in the first place, and for all we know she was marginally better qualified than Mesaana (though the BWB says she was "not world-famous or well known, but respected by her colleagues".

She couldn't imagine that the source of that power was a sentient being. She probably thought this would be her big breakthrough, that she would finally be celebrated in society like she deserved, and that Lews Therin would come running back to her.
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2015, 05:53 AM
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Also, as a response to #4, the Tar Valon stash of angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal is actually not that big. That's why they went and carted a whole bunch of the stuff away from Rhuidean - I believe there's a comment somewhere that the Rhuidean collection was at least as big, if not bigger, as was already stored in Tar Valon - though I may be misremembering things.

Anyways, as the TV supply was thoroughly indexed and monitored, it would make sense to look for supplies from less secure locations first.
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  #30  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:36 AM
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Her behavior was that of someone who was very insecure about herself. She felt the need to buttress her sense of superiority with things outside herself, like Lews Therin, and like a source of Power with the potential to eradicate the gender differences she was accustomed to.
Lanfear was the "Psycho Cheerleader From Hell" who could only consider herself successful if on the arm of the BMOC -- and would do away with anyone who trespassed on "her man/territory/possessions."
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2015, 02:42 PM
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This is like another question: if in AOL they could make things like Callandor and CK, how the world didn't get destroyed at all.
That's the thing, they could make these uber powerful devices in the AOL, but they didn't. It wasn't until the world was in danger of being destroyed by the Dark One that they chose to make them. I am pretty sure it was a societal choice that they didn't make them, and that they weren't neck deep in angreal and Sa'angreal. With the knowledge and abilities they had, surely every channeler alive could have been walking around with an Angreal in their pockets, but they weren't. That had to have been purposeful.
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  #32  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:50 PM
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1. Lol, I remember feeling annoyed about Rand not taking full advantage of Callandor too! It always seemed very frustrating. There's nothing I can really say other than the rationalisations Rand makes in the book, not necessarily as they relate to Callandor, that the Fat Little Man angreal pretty much makes him stronger than any other channeller anyway, as he saw it. And it's a whole lot handier than Callandor to carry around. Like you say at the start of [4] " The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet." Exactly. So why bother carting Callandor about when he's already made an estimate that the angreal gives him comparable or superior strength in the Power over any channeller he might meet anyway?

2. Lanfear, a much more skilled and powerful channeller, would have sensed her creating the weave...?

3. I don't agree with the the third. I think Shadar Logoth was an excellent location to take Rand. Presumably Sammael staked it out beforehand, and even stationed trollocs there. Defensive positioning was Sammael's forte, so I always thought the dices were massively loaded in his favour against Rand, and like you say: he was winning until the "mysterious stranger" stepped in...

4. RAFO (sorry)

*

Generally I agree with where you're coming from. There sometimes seems a lack of characters taking full advantage of the assets present at hand. One in particular (that I can't mention here) used to annoy me no end!

However the WoT is an oddly structured and quite unique fantasy series, Rand reaches very quickly a point in strength/knowledge/resolve (sorta) that the standard hero in quest-type fantasy fiction normally doesn't reach until just before he fights the Final Boss in the last few pages. So midway through the series, when he's already proven himself against some of the Forsaken, we see Rand go into the mode of field marshall: moving himself, his armies, and other pieces and assets all over the board (Westlands) where they can be easily retrieved via Travelling, as the cat-and-mouse game against the Forsaken unravels, as frustrating as it often is. I think this is just part of how the series is designed, and not only that objects like Callandor can have this effect on the reader, but the fact characters too who are integral to each other's survival are often so far apart on some errant or that, that it can be really quite flummoxing. So in sum, I think that feeling of frustration we get is sorta how RJ intended it.

p.s. Sorry if I repeated other people's answers
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2017, 02:05 PM
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I am about 2 years late, but I want to point out something about #3. As it says in the post before mine, Sammael had prepared the battleground. He had trolloc on patrol to make Rand channel, telling Sammael where Rand is. Mashadar would be a tool to assist Sammael in winning. What Sammael didn't consider was that Rand would bring company that got Balefired whilst consumed by Mashadar. That a person got Balefired made Mashadar seek another victim. Because of Balefire erasing people from existence earlier in time, Mashadar had some extra time to seek out Sammael. Sammael had no time to react, since Balefire changed reality.
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  #34  
Old 06-29-2017, 04:24 AM
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Now if only Sammael had had combat experience in a war in which balefire was used by both sides ... oops!
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  #35  
Old 06-29-2017, 02:42 PM
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Now if only Sammael had had combat experience in a war in which balefire was used by both sides ... oops!
He also was aware that it was such a problematic tool that even the shadow had decided to stop using it. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to think that it was unlikely that Rand would know it and even more unlikely that he would use it.

Demandred may have been told that Rahvin was balefired, but Sammael wasn't getting first hand information in the same way. He probably would have known that Moraine (known to him as some random female Aes Sedia) knew it, based on what happened to his Hell Hounds in TDR, but she couldn't have taught Rand even if he thought they might be connected.

Even if he had thought that Rand knew balefire and was willing to use it, he wouldn't have expected him to use it on someone other than him. He certainly wouldn't have expected him to use it to try to save someone from a horrendous death, resulting in Mashadar being released in the way it was. I'm not sure Sammael is capable of understanding Rand's choice there.
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  #36  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:03 AM
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If Sammael had kept any tabs on the Black Tower, then he could have known that Rand did indeed know balefire. After all, in LoC, Rand said quite explicitly that he didn't want to teach that to Taim. In TFoH, Rand killed a couple of Darkhounds that were probably send by Sammael using balefire. And, of course, Asmodean finds a balefire-burn in the palace in Caemlyn, at the start of the "You? No!" episode.

So there definitely was plenty of evidence around that Rand knew balefire.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:27 AM
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Sure, but we don't have any reason to think that Sammael did pay attention to anything that he wasn't doing himself. So, of those, only the darkhounds that he sent would be pertinent. I don't know that we have any reason to think that he was directly connected to them enough to know how they died though.

Besides, as I said, even if he did know that Rand knew balefire, that doesn't mean that Sammael had the capacity to consider it being used to save Lia.
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  #38  
Old 06-30-2017, 09:57 AM
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Rand could see Sammael. So he could have targeted him directly with balefire, which, for Sammael, wouldn't have been all that much better.
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  #39  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:28 PM
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There were some questions i thought not raise last time i was on this thread because i thought the discussion could eventually lead to spoilers.

First, Moiraine vs Lanfear. As we see in WH, having an angreal isn't gurantee of victory against Lanfear. As it turns out, Moiraine's best weapon was probably surprise. Lanfear didn't know she was there especially since she wasn't channeling. IIRC, she only embraced saidar right before she was on top of Lanfear!
Its Moiraine taking the battle to the enemy close in, where Lanfear has to be extra careful and her superior strength and even knowledge of saidar were almost gone. Doing anything else very likely would have led to her defeat or death or both. For one thing, the moment she embraced, Lanfear would have been alerted. And already holding saidar and far stronger than Moiraine, the end result would be fairly predictable. All in all, probably a good prediction/solution that Moiraine got from the Rhuidean terangreal.

#4 why not use the BA to get angreal and saangreal?
To be frank it never really occured to me. Probably because of the way the entire structure of the forces of the shadow were. All of them were very selfish and territorial! Most of the forsaken ddin't know who headed the BA! And they probably knew that Mesaana was in the WT and that Ishy likely created the BA. So trying to use it might be reported and lead either Ishamael or Mesaana coming after them. At least that's what i think.
And i think they were searching in TAR for specific items with little risk.
I'm not sure this is satisfactory, but its basically what i could come up with. Unless someone has better ideas?
And i suppose meta123 has finished the series by now?
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:15 AM
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TAs it turns out, Moiraine's best weapon was probably surprise.
"Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

Maybe Moiraine should've thought about it a bit more before acting too.

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Its Moiraine taking the battle to the enemy close in, where Lanfear has to be extra careful and her superior strength and even knowledge of saidar were almost gone. Doing anything else very likely would have led to her defeat or death or both. For one thing, the moment she embraced, Lanfear would have been alerted. And already holding saidar and far stronger than Moiraine, the end result would be fairly predictable. All in all, probably a good prediction/solution that Moiraine got from the Rhuidean terangreal.
Probably. However, it is once again noticeable that she (or you) didn't really think of using a non-Power based attack method.
Punch Lanfear in the solar plexus, and she is a bit distracted for a while, no matter how good she can channel.
Poke her eyes out, and she might be even less effective. Then again, she may have practised fighting in the dark against opponents with infra-red goggles, so this isn't an entirely guaranteed approach. Which brings up the question: would such goggles help you to see the various components of the OP, or not?
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