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  #81  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:31 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
One thing that has struck me so far is that everyone seems to be ridiculously tall. Is the gravity of Randland less than earths?
Just about everyone who is small gets overlooked. Apart from a very few small Aiel, but they make up for being vertically challenged with their attitude.
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  #82  
Old 11-06-2015, 11:17 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
One thing that has struck me so far is that everyone seems to be ridiculously tall. Is the gravity of Randland less than earths?
Well, the women are all mostly short, some very short. But yeah... Rand 6'6"? Wow. Egwene was 5'3"... they must have looked ridiculous together. No wonder Min wanted those heels.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Notes say 16(4).
Interesting. Wonder why that was omitted.

The more I think on it, the more it feels to me like a ~4 level difference doesn't matter much, and it is kind of hard to tell channelers apart if they are that close.

This leaves plenty of room for all the Forsaken to be really close in strength, explaining why they don't seem to care so much about it.

Here are some quotes that seem to back this up:
About Metarra:

Quote:
Her strength level was 9(4), roughly equal to Elayne and Egwene.
Quote:
While there were six additional levels for men above those for women, the disparity was not as great as it seemed, measuring the bulk quantity of the One Power that a person could handle.
I almost wonder if those "21 levels" just got expanded to allow for further gradations, and this is the result.
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  #83  
Old 11-06-2015, 12:04 PM
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I like how the Companion mentioned the fate of some minor characters who we don't really see on-screen during the last book in their last hurrahs, such as Ajimbura and Bayrd.
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  #84  
Old 11-06-2015, 05:50 PM
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[QUOTE=WinespringBrother;233931]I like how the Companion mentioned the fate of some minor characters who we don't really see on-screen during the last book in their last hurrahs, such as Ajimbura and Bayrd.[/QUOTE

Ajimburas fate is hilarious. It's no wonder that was Alan's favorite. It was also interesting to learn that Egwene's older sister may have been able to learn how to channel.
A little bit disappointed about Bela, simply because she died a heroes death in AMoL.
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  #85  
Old 11-06-2015, 07:27 PM
sleepinghour sleepinghour is offline
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Well, the women are all mostly short, some very short. But yeah... Rand 6'6"? Wow. Egwene was 5'3"... they must have looked ridiculous together. No wonder Min wanted those heels.
An approximate visual of how Rand and Lan would look next to the shorter female characters. Klitschko is 6'6" and Hayden 5'1" (seeing them next to each other always makes me boggle that they had a child together).

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
The more I think on it, the more it feels to me like a ~4 level difference doesn't matter much, and it is kind of hard to tell channelers apart if they are that close.
Four levels seems a fair jump; Alivia was said to be "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve who is only two levels down (three at the time).

Regarding Metarra, I've noticed that much of what is said in the Companion is paraphrased from the books, where it's said that "...Metarra on a level with Elayne herself" (TPoD). Which she was at the time since Elayne hasn't reached her full potential. So that's probably why her strength was compared to theirs. I do think it's fair to say that someone a level above or below is roughly of the same strength considering how many levels there are in total.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Notes say 16(4).
Is there anything about Aviendha's potential strength? The Companion puts her at 11(+2) without further explanation, which seems strange considering how often it's been said that her potential is equal to that of Egwene and Elayne.
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  #86  
Old 11-06-2015, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
Is there anything about Aviendha's potential strength? The Companion puts her at 11(+2) without further explanation, which seems strange considering how often it's been said that her potential is equal to that of Egwene and Elayne.
Her potential is definitely equal to theirs. She started her training after they did, though; she didn't start until TSR, when Egwene had already been forced to reach (or nearly reach) her potential.
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  #87  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
It was also interesting to learn that Egwene's older sister may have been able to learn how to channel.
Her two youngest sisters (Elisa and Loise) are both mentioned as potential channelers, as is Marin. That's an insanely channeler dense family. No such thing is said about any of the Cauthons.
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Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
An approximate visual of how Rand and Lan would look next to the shorter female characters. Klitschko is 6'6" and Hayden 5'1" (seeing them next to each other always makes me boggle that they had a child together).
That's hilarious. I remember there's a scene where Egwene is hugging Rand, and it says the hilt of his sword was poking her chest... RJ really had a dirty mind.

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Four levels seems a fair jump; Alivia was said to be "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve who is only two levels down (three at the time).
I know. And Graendal talking of Cyndane says she was "so much stronger than Moghedien". But the Companion does say 6 levels above Lanfear are not all that considerable. Unless those levels are less spaced out than the main 72 (or 66) levels, we're left with picking between what Reanne and Graendal say vs. what the Companion says.

Terez, any input here? Are the levels all evenly spaced from 1-72?

Quote:
Regarding Metarra, I've noticed that much of what is said in the Companion is paraphrased from the books, where it's said that "...Metarra on a level with Elayne herself" (TPoD). Which she was at the time since Elayne hasn't reached her full potential. So that's probably why her strength was compared to theirs. I do think it's fair to say that someone a level above or below is roughly of the same strength considering how many levels there are in total.
You know, I'm pretty certain Elayne was at level 11(+2) as well, same as Aviendha. For one, she definitely say Viendre was stronger, but Viendre is only level 10(+3). For another, a lot of the text implies she was dead even with Aviendha in the Power (for instance, using the Bowl of the Winds, she gives the stronger angreal to Aviendha, which made no sense unless they were of the same strength, since Elayne emphasizes how they were trying to maximize strength in the circle). I suspect Metarra's strength level also is her potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Her potential is definitely equal to theirs. She started her training after they did, though; she didn't start until TSR, when Egwene had already been forced to reach (or nearly reach) her potential.
Are we certain of this? The way Aviendha speaks when she first sees Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, the way Moiraine speaks of her in Tear... I felt Aviendha had already started channeling a while ago, but was just refusing to become a Wise One. I think she had learned enough to be safe, so she was let to leave the Waste.

Otherwise, if she only began in the Waste, she grew very far very fast. Soon after they're there:

Quote:
Then one day, with the sun molten overhead, a ball of fire as big as a horse suddenly burst into being ahead of the Wise Ones’ party and went spinning and tumbling away, blazing a furrow across the sere land, until it finally dwindled and winked out.
That's an incredibly large effect for a new channeler. Soon after, she is able to precisely target fire at a Draghkar. Then make a Gateway, and then help Egwene against the Shaido. Its not like the Wise Ones were forcing her. and even if they were, she can't possibly have made a fireball as big as a horse a few days after starting to channel.

ETA: Aviendha was definitely already a channeler before tSR. She was a year older than Egwene and Elayne, so its unlikely her spark didn't show till that late. It would have been too risky to let her leave the Waste if she hadn't already started.

ETA2: I see Terez said "training", not start channeling. I still think she had some training pre-tSR, but the lower intensity compared to Egwene and Elayne might have meant she was weaker.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 11-06-2015 at 10:15 PM.
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  #88  
Old 11-06-2015, 10:13 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Double post.
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  #89  
Old 11-06-2015, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I see Terez said "training", not start channeling. I still think she had some training pre-tSR, but the lower intensity compared to Egwene and Elayne might have meant she was weaker.
They probably guided her through her first touching like the Aes Sedai do when they have the chance (Wise Ones don't miss any sparkers), and then told her not to use the Power until she gave up the spear. And being Wise Ones, they had reason to believe such an order would be more or less obeyed. Since Aviendha wanted to avoid that particular destiny, she probably did obey, difficult as it might have been for her.

As for the size of her ball of fire, even at her "novice" strength, she would have been stronger than most Aes Sedai. And as a warrior, she would have already been practiced at the Void. She was just learning how to control it at that point.
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  #90  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:18 AM
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This wasn't something I cared all that much about before, but the Old Tongue dictionary is actually really cool.


Thom lalane odi sterpan xazzi vid o lindhi whado wot ainame sa o caili parikesh e poulam aird. Patra sin bhootane o ozela mitris vaesht sin ghuniane wixi ni otye barocan, no sin lyetane spondat.


I might still be a little rusty, but that should be a nice love poem for Nynaeve and Lan. I hope it came out right.
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  #91  
Old 11-07-2015, 03:38 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
They probably guided her through her first touching like the Aes Sedai do when they have the chance (Wise Ones don't miss any sparkers), and then told her not to use the Power until she gave up the spear. And being Wise Ones, they had reason to believe such an order would be more or less obeyed. Since Aviendha wanted to avoid that particular destiny, she probably did obey, difficult as it might have been for her.
From what we know, though, guiding her through her first touching only removes the initial danger. It is possible she obeyed and never touched the source again, but should she had slipped, the dangers were considerable, as Verin told Egwene.

Quote:
As for the size of her ball of fire, even at her "novice" strength, she would have been stronger than most Aes Sedai. And as a warrior, she would have already been practiced at the Void. She was just learning how to control it at that point.
I'm not sure about that. Women have a steady progression unless forced. They don't start with a big chunk of their strength. Based on the Companion, at the end of aMoL, Avi was just two levels above Moiraine. I don't think Novices start with large amounts of Power available to them, even if they're eventually very strong.
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  #92  
Old 11-07-2015, 04:35 AM
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Then again, just about everyone who knows about it (the Forsaken, the Seanchan, the Sharans, Cadsuane and I think also the Wise Ones) was rather contemptible about the AS training methods. So the rate at which novices learn may not be the best possible.
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  #93  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:59 PM
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I wish the Kindle ebook had a better table of contents, leading to every chapter; this one isn't really very useful. If you want to look up a certain character entry, you can narrow down the search results substantially if you include the character's last name. Which might seem like a no-brainer, but I've seen several people complaining that they get hundreds of results by searching for "Rand," in which case they're better off searching for "Rand al'Thor" (25 matches).
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  #94  
Old 11-07-2015, 09:25 PM
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Then again, just about everyone who knows about it (the Forsaken, the Seanchan, the Sharans, Cadsuane and I think also the Wise Ones) was rather contemptible about the AS training methods. So the rate at which novices learn may not be the best possible.
This is strictly not true. The Forsaken call them half-trained girls... which is because they don't know the rest of the weaves. The Seanchan say nothing of their training that I can remember, and on the whole, they barely know a fraction of what the Aes Sedai know of the One Power. The Sharans... they thought Aes Sedai don't reach their full potential? Clearly they know nothing of what Aes Sedai do. Cadsuane does think they don't experiment enough, but it is worth pointing out that once Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve opened the floodgates, many Aes Sedai did innovate.

As for the Wise Ones... they straight out admit the Aes Sedai know and understand the Power better. They're rightly contemptible of the other training the Aes Sedai give, but never about the OP stuff.

Of all the channeling groups, the Aes Sedai are structurally the weakest, and have a lot of idiotic ideas, but I don't think we can reasonably doubt that they preserved knowledge of the OP best, and have the deepest understanding of it. That may change, but I doubt it.
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  #95  
Old 11-08-2015, 04:59 AM
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But it is not about the knowledge they have, it is about their strength and endurance training. Which is precisely what the Sharans comment about. And Egwene's training in that regard with the Seanchan was clearly a lot more effective than the training the AS gave. For that matter, the methods that Taim used in the BT were also more effective than the WT training program, and Taim's approach was based on what he had learned from Demandred. While the WOs know less about the OP than the WT does, Amys also remarks that they "don't coddle them like the White Tower" (ToM, ch. 14).
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:58 AM
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There appears to be a major and frankly inexplicable error in the balefire article, where in describing the effects it says "The dead didn't come back to life."
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  #97  
Old 11-08-2015, 04:06 PM
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But it is not about the knowledge they have, it is about their strength and endurance training. Which is precisely what the Sharans comment about. And Egwene's training in that regard with the Seanchan was clearly a lot more effective than the training the AS gave. For that matter, the methods that Taim used in the BT were also more effective than the WT training program, and Taim's approach was based on what he had learned from Demandred. While the WOs know less about the OP than the WT does, Amys also remarks that they "don't coddle them like the White Tower" (ToM, ch. 14).
But it's not like the Aes Sedai wimped out in the Last Battle, or in other places. Some do, sure, and just like among the Wise Ones, there are some more interested in their own comforts and goals.

We saw the worst of their political shenanigans, which makes them seem completely contemptuous, but they're not.

And I thought we were specifically discussing their OP training, because it came up in the context of Aviendhas OP training. The Wise Ones are contemptuous of Aes Sedai morals, but not of their OP training.
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  #98  
Old 11-08-2015, 06:00 PM
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This "coddling" clearly refers specifically to the measures taken by Aes Sedai to prevent novices from being harmed in any way. They err very much on the side of caution, which means their training is slow. There is nothing in the books to suggest that Wise Ones think this approach is a good idea. They acknowledge that the Aes Sedai are somewhat more versatile channelers who know more weaves than they do in general, but that's about as far as it goes. They have special weaves of their own.
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  #99  
Old 11-08-2015, 06:51 PM
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Thom's entry indicates that he was Healed after the encounter with the Myrddraal at Whitebridge by some random unnamed Aes Sedai who could regulate her weaves:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Companion
He saved the boys from a Myrddraal in Whitebridge, escaping largely because the Myrddraal was more interested in following Rand and Mat, though he did put up a good fight and wounded it, perhaps even killed it. He himself was wounded in the leg and would have died had not an Aes Sedai shown up just in the nick of time. Like Samitsu, she could regulate her weaves, so she was able to Heal him enough to keep him alive, but he was left with a limp and a scar.
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Old 11-08-2015, 06:55 PM
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The Companion says:

Quote:
Aes Sedai considered unsupervised channeling for novices dangerous, as it very certainly was, and thus it was forbidden. Channeling too much or too often was also dangerous, and novices were always closely supervised when channeling.
The measures the Aes Sedai take are very sensible. I doubt the Wise Ones do much different, or they'll have women burning out left and right. Sul'dam don't bother, but then, the a'dam doesn't allow you to draw too much and burn yourself out, or to accidentally channel and kill others or yourself, so the entire "training" is wholly different.

As for the Wise Ones, they're perfectly right that Novices are coddled compared to apprentices, but I see no evidence that they're talking of the OP training. They're talking about how they build character. You don't become an apprentice before you go to Rhuidean and prove yourself, whereas Aes Sedai give you a long time before you try for Accepted, and there, you have the option of refusing.

I've seen no evidence that women progress faster among Wise Ones or Windfinders. The only place where progress in channeling is faster is the Black Tower. And they lose a ton of their Soldiers.
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