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  #161  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:04 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Nitpick: Min's viewing was only guaranteed if Rand and the DO didn't obliterate reality. But since they chose not to do that this time, this is only a theoretical issue, not a practical one. Come to think of it, if reality were obliterated, then it wouldn't be practical either, on account of there not being anything left to practice in.

Note: as usual, I'd forgotten about this viewing of Min's. I don't know why I tend to forget it, but I do know that I remember having noticed such forgetting on a number of occasions already. I sort of wonder when the next time will be.
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  #162  
Old 06-25-2016, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Nitpick: Min's viewing was only guaranteed if Rand and the DO didn't obliterate reality. But since they chose not to do that this time, this is only a theoretical issue, not a practical one. Come to think of it, if reality were obliterated, then it wouldn't be practical either, on account of there not being anything left to practice in.

Note: as usual, I'd forgotten about this viewing of Min's. I don't know why I tend to forget it, but I do know that I remember having noticed such forgetting on a number of occasions already. I sort of wonder when the next time will be.
Min's Viewings: The Creator has spoken! You wouldn't want to forget the Voice of The Creator!

Min's veiwings, Perrin's wolfdream prophecies, Egwene's dreaming, Foretelling (Gitara, Elaida, Nicola, the Dark Prophecies) Dreamwalker dreams, Aelfinn and elffin (sp), .... too many to keep track of. You're allowed to miss a few
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  #163  
Old 06-26-2016, 04:26 AM
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I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.
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  #164  
Old 06-26-2016, 10:04 AM
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I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.
It's nice you have goals to fall short of.
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  #165  
Old 06-26-2016, 05:45 PM
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I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.
Thou art great, indeed
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  #166  
Old 04-02-2017, 04:04 PM
C Rutherford C Rutherford is offline
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So I've been drifting through this again. Mainly to make a list of what contradictions there are within it and what contradictions there are with the series.

One thing I have noticed is that the contradictions on some dates is rather amusing. The placement of the Red Sitters following the unseating of the three is all over the place. I saw on a couple of social media fan sites the gushing over how we now know who the Red Sitters were to unseat Siuan. And every one ignores the series themselves that established it was Elaida, Teslyn and Pevara and Jordan at a couple of signings finally clarified with Amira.

Never mind that the real burning question of which was the Blue Sitter that never made it alive out of the Tower following the coup still remains unanswered (I'll put it down to my list obsession that who the rest of the Fal Dara Delegation was being an unanswered mystery as the second most tragic omission*)

But what I found interesting were the entries that I suspect meant Jordan had further use than we saw. And I have fun trying to figure out how he might have gone about it.

The stuff on the vileness and Marith Jaen makes me suspect were some of the ideas he was playing with in regards to the set aside twp remaining prequels. But the entry on Serafelle and the detail on several of the sisters who helped kidnap Rand in Cairhien makes me wonder. Not just because the details are so wrong from the series (we have entries on sisters who were of the Brown, Yellow and Gray ajahs yet in the series there were no Yellows and only Nesune for the Brown and Coiren for the Gray). But also Serafelle's background suggests he was planning on using her in way we never got to see. Compare her entry to Maigan for instance. Or Norine's. It doesn't mean that either the latter two might not have had greater roles, but he clearly didn't have the background set for much at the time it seems to me. Not even a strength level for Norine. Which makes me think she just served to be a bit of a Red Herring in the "who is Mesaana" bit maybe.

Another thing I wonder, is where was Jordan going with some of the contradictions? I get in some ways the Red Sitters. Elaida was the focus in the fourth book and then in the fifth he expands tower politics with her advisory council and muddles it a bit. But then there is the too young sitter thing and for me a good part goes to hell in terms of logic. In the series the chronology simply does not allow me to believe the Sitters who fled the tower had time to be told by their Ajah heads to do so. I'm disappointed that the Ajah heads knowing one another was not better done since the published part of his notes more than once points out that Ajah heads do not know each. Yet in the midst of a Tower split that involves death and violence, there is time to come up with a plan to send out the sisters that were not taken in on the vote to take charge of the rebels according to the Companion. Since the rebels took time to even gather, and didn't even form a true rebellion until Siuan got there to give them the push, how does that work exactly. I think Jordan had some ideas that either didn't pan out or he just got bored with them like he seemed to with Adeleas' murder and tried to wrap it up quickly and easily and just made a bit of a mess in the end. I know the Jordan is Infallible crowd will tie their privates in knots over the idea that the too young sitter plot was a real hash in the end, but there you are.

I'm rambling now.

Anyway I was just airing some thoughts "out loud" and realized how much of a muddle the Companion turns out to be by making it an encyclopedia that provides "facts".
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  #167  
Old 04-03-2017, 10:49 AM
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You will get no argument from me that the Companion was highly disappointing...or that the Too Young Sitters subplot was pretty much pointless in the end. It was easily one of those things that should have been edited out of the later books to move things along.
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  #168  
Old 04-03-2017, 06:40 PM
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I definitely think the Companion was crap.

About the Too Young Sitters: it seemed pretty obvious to me that they genuinely fled on the day of Siuan's removal. They were all, you'll note, women who weren't invited by Elaida for her minimum Sitting to depose Siuan.

Once a Rebellion started taking shape, they obviously communicated with their Ajah Heads, who told them to stay put to guide the Rebellion back home, and replaced them with temp Sitters who they felt they could easily remove when the Rebellion ended, as they thought it inevitably would.

Remember, the Rebellion was thought initially to be mere grandstanding. The Blues were genuinely pissed and wanted Elaida brought down, but the Ajah Heads thought that most of their own Sisters would come back soon enough.

Till Siuan herself walked into Salidar, I suspect that is exactly what would have happened. The Blues may not have returned, but the rest would have mostly given up. Logain's lies, Elaida's refusal to reinstate the Blues, and Siuan's plotting ended up changing things.
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  #169  
Old 04-03-2017, 07:43 PM
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I definitely think the Companion was crap.

About the Too Young Sitters: it seemed pretty obvious to me that they genuinely fled on the day of Siuan's removal. They were all, you'll note, women who weren't invited by Elaida for her minimum Sitting to depose Siuan.
Not necessarily.

The usual thinking would seem to be that the six original sitters (i.e. the six non-Blues originals - they, like the reds, had no problem with internal splintering to solve) were sent by the Ajah heads, originally to try to coerce all the rebels back home as seamlessly as possible. Elaida's heavy-handedness towards the blues however, and the bloodshed made this difficult. Once new Halls were raised however the problem got more complicated, again for everyone but the blues and the reds. The others all needed a way to blend their six sitters back down to three as cleanly as possible - hence raising too young sitters, thinking that deference would cause them to toe the party line once the rebellion either ended, or emerged victorious (a possibility which the Ajah heads obviously would have considered all but impossible). It was just to show both the reach of the Ajah heads, and their planning for how to bring the two halls back together.

The wot wiki sums this issue up pretty well.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Too_Young_...nusual_Sitters

The only real oddity is Janya.

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Fan theories generally held that someone was responsible for sending some or all of the six original Sitters to the rebels. Under one theory, the Ajah Heads sent them to stymie the rebellion. Support for this came from the fact that five of these six vote against almost every divisive measure put before the Rebel Hall. This theory sees them as taking advantage of the rift between Lelaine and Romanda to sow inaction. For evidence that this division among the five was feigned, they point to the vote to declare war on Elaida, in which the two who normally support Lelaine vote against it, to Lelaine's visible consternation. Another theory held these were the "moles" Elaida told Alviarin she had among the rebels. Still another theory advanced the notion that somehow the Black Ajah was responsible.

The former theory was proven correct. It was confirmed in The Gathering Storm that the Ajah Heads (aside from the Red and Blue) each sent Sitters to the rebels to try to end the rebellion quickly, with nothing more than hurt feelings. It is not clear whether Janya was one of these, but it is noteworthy that among the Ajah Heads' regrets was that "some" of the Sitters came to side with the rebels sometimes more than the Tower. It also emerged that the youthful sitters in the Tower were chosen as part of a plot to put control of the Tower in the hands of the Ajah Heads. The idea was that youthful Sitters would follow instructions from their Ajah Heads. In deciding to support Egwene's ascension to the Amyrlin Seat, they put aside this plan.

The voting patterns in the Rebel Hall suggest that if someone contrived to send Sitters to Salidar, for whatever reason, Janya was not involved. Janya was a Brown Sitter before the schism, but does not belong to either Romanda's faction, nor Lelaine's. Furthermore, she votes with the younger Sitters rather than the original Sitters in every vote. That could explain why the Browns have four normal Sitters where the other Ajahs (excluding the Blue and Red) have three. It is possible that Janya was seen as a genuine rebel because she left on her own initiative and was therefore replaced with the logical next choice for Sitter, Shevan, who was seen as being groomed to replace Saerin. Another explanation put forward was that Saerin intended to step down when the Tower was whole again as she had been seen as likely to step down before long. That theory was severely undercut by fact that Saerin did not step down, with Janya and Takima both rejoining her as Brown Sitters. Janya's resuming her role in the post-Schism Hall can be taken as evidence that the theory about Janya being viewed as a genuine rebel and Shevan's being appointed in her stead was incorrect or merely as evidence of the healing Egwene called for in her speech accepting the rebels' apology.
This just seemed one of the many still slightly loose ends caused by the unfortunate need to bring in an outsider to finish the series. This at least was a pretty minor problem. The only thread that BS really screwed up irreparably was Logain. He completely was cheated of his glory.

The Companion suffered from the problem that it simply didn't have much new to offer compared to pre-existing internet encyclopedia. They should have simply used it as a chance to publish RJ's notes on the series instead. Those would have been of far more interest. At least we have a glimpse at a bit of those because of Terez - and those glimpses have been far more interesting than anything in the Companion.
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  #170  
Old 04-04-2017, 09:29 AM
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The only thread that BS really screwed up irreparably was Logain. He completely was cheated of his glory.
Yes but at least we got that super cool original character Androl who could basically do everything with gateways and was like super cool and original...and not totally idiotically stupid and completely not in keeping with the story of to that point.

My very favorite part of the last books was his amazing relationship with his Aes Sedai and their critically important exploration of their double bond.

I mean, I reread those scenes every chance I get.

~goes off to break things~
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  #171  
Old 04-04-2017, 09:33 AM
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They should have simply used it as a chance to publish RJ's notes on the series instead. Those would have been of far more interest. At least we have a glimpse at a bit of those because of Terez - and those glimpses have been far more interesting than anything in the Companion.
They should have used the notes to create a much better and more complete version of the BWB...one that also hopefully contained better illustrations than the original.

Publishing a pure dictionary for the most part was such a letdown.
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  #172  
Old 04-04-2017, 08:28 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Not necessarily.
My bad. I didn't mean to say the Too Young Sitters were excluded from Elaida's coup, but that the senior Sitters among the Rebels were.

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The usual thinking would seem to be that the six original sitters (i.e. the six non-Blues originals - they, like the reds, had no problem with internal splintering to solve) were sent by the Ajah heads, originally to try to coerce all the rebels back home as seamlessly as possible. Elaida's heavy-handedness towards the blues however, and the bloodshed made this difficult.
The only issue with this is one of timelines. In Seaine's PoV, she says she was the only Sitter who wasn't part of Elaida's coup who didn't flee. But if the other original Sitters did flee on orders, the Ajah heads needed to have some kind of foreknowledge that the chaos of that day would coalesce into a Rebellion, and chose to send these Sitters to do something about it.

I'm skeptical about that. It seems far more likely to me that these women had stronger relations with the Blues and Siuan, and saw the message in the tea leaves when Siuan was deposed without them being informed of the Sitting. After all, Siuan's confidence that a full Sitting would never depose her must have come in part due to these women. For example, remember that only two Greens sided with the Reds over Siuan's trip to Fal Dara, and those two were almost certainly Rubinde and Talene, meaning Faiselle was clearly in more pro-Siuan camp of the Hall.

I think these women genuinely fled for safety and from anger. But once the heat of the chaos cooled and they saw what the Blues were up to, they wrote to their Ajah Heads, who decided to make them all go to Salidar and steer the Rebellion home.

The alternative is that they stayed back for a bit, but then left, which would have been mighty weird, since their staying back couldn't have been hidden, given their prominence in the Tower.

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The wot wiki sums this issue up pretty well.
Yup.

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The only real oddity is Janya.
I was always convinced Janya was a genuine rebel. We first saw her with Anaiya, a prominent Blue who seems to have many research collaborators among the Browns.
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  #173  
Old 04-04-2017, 10:15 PM
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They should have used the notes to create a much better and more complete version of the BWB...one that also hopefully contained better illustrations than the original.

Publishing a pure dictionary for the most part was such a letdown.
Based on the fact that Brandon and everyone on Team Jordan was (I think) surprised when Terez revealed that Taimandred killed Asmo in the notes, there should be some pretty serious doubts that any of them have gone through the notes at all. Not in detail, at least. Which is pretty disappointing too.
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  #174  
Old 04-07-2017, 01:22 AM
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I was browsing through the Companion again, and had a question. Anyone know why Egwene's entry is so short compared to other main characters? All the others got a fairly detailed summary of their plot arcs, and this included several secondary characters too. I never noticed it before, but Egwene's is an entry shorter than most primary and secondary characters.

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  #175  
Old 04-07-2017, 11:13 AM
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I was browsing through the Companion again, and had a question. Anyone know why Egwene's entry is so short compared to other main characters? All the others got a fairly detailed summary of their plot arcs, and this included several secondary characters too. I never noticed it before, but Egwene's is an entry shorter than most primary and secondary characters.
Maybe there's a second entry for her under "The Amyrlin"...you see, they're two separate people and all.
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