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  #41  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:49 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by connabard View Post
I found Mat/Tuon weird because while Mat has his prejudice to Aes Sedai it's weird he'd be ready and willing w/ someone who wants to make really inhuman pets of his best friends/pseudo-family

also Mat and Elayne had better chemistry
Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.
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  #42  
Old 12-08-2015, 12:16 PM
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Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.
My biggest disappointment in the books all revolved around Tuon and the Seanchan. A climax from the natural and dramatic tension between her character's prejudices and her relationship with Mat; the anticipation of a One Power revelation on Tuon's part that would set in motion a culture change amongst the Seanchan (perhaps even seeing her channel); Egwene learning how to disable the leash and nullifying the Seanchan's domination of channelers.

I was very emotionally invested in this story line because the Seanchan culture bothered me so much. To be honest, I was more invested in that story line and the moral/power implications than I was in the DO/Rand confrontation. Probably because it reflects real life (burqa) and thus meant more to me than an over-the-top armageddon battle. I also feel like this is where Robert Jordan excelled, taking real-life politics/prejudices/issues and inserting them into the wonderful world he built.
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  #43  
Old 12-08-2015, 01:42 PM
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I found Mat/Tuon weird because while Mat has his prejudice to Aes Sedai it's weird he'd be ready and willing w/ someone who wants to make really inhuman pets of his best friends/pseudo-family

also Mat and Elayne had better chemistry
Mat & Elayne made the most sense of anyone in the books...so logically it didn't happen. They even really liked each other but of course they don't end up together. Elayne gets completely short-changed by being 1/3 of the Dragon's harem. Honestly, Min & Rand make sense and Avi & Rand make sense but Elayne and Rand was just stupid from the start. Elayne turning to the Shadow because she couldn't have Rand (parallels to Mierin and LTT) would also have made sense. She falls for him as the forbidden love (who literally falls into her mom's garden) but he likes Min and/or Avi more, she lusts after him and power (only natural since she's a princess) and the rest is history.

Or even her going to Mat and Avi turning evil for much the same reason as listed above with Elayne.

Oh well.
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  #44  
Old 12-08-2015, 01:43 PM
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Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.
Also, Mat's very firmly established opinions on right and wrong that are completely ignored in his relationship with Tuon. He'd never accept slavery ever...he always does the right thing on the big issues...so it's illogical that he'd accept their culture of slavery and abuse.
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  #45  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:20 PM
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Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:22 PM
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Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).
The 2nd one would never work since Tuon is fully aware of sul'dam's capabilities and always has been. She wouldn't be that stupid...at least unless the writer deliberately made her so.
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:24 PM
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Mat & Elayne made the most sense of anyone in the books...so logically it didn't happen. They even really liked each other but of course they don't end up together. Elayne gets completely short-changed by being 1/3 of the Dragon's harem. Honestly, Min & Rand make sense and Avi & Rand make sense but Elayne and Rand was just stupid from the start. Elayne turning to the Shadow because she couldn't have Rand (parallels to Mierin and LTT) would also have made sense. She falls for him as the forbidden love (who literally falls into her mom's garden) but he likes Min and/or Avi more, she lusts after him and power (only natural since she's a princess) and the rest is history.

Or even her going to Mat and Avi turning evil for much the same reason as listed above with Elayne.

Oh well.
I found the romance (generally) was one thing that was just handled really weirdly in WoT

I loved Lan/Nynaeve but even their romance was jarring to me at first, especially with how quickly it went from sort-of flirting to saying their undying love to each other.

Rand/Min was handled well though, and Rand/Avi though to a lesser extent, and Rand/Elayne was entirely ridiculous.

I also found Gawyn/Egwene to be really out of left field but also as much as I'm on the fence about Egwene it strikes me as odd that she'd pair up with the most moronic guy there is

I believe there was a time when Egwene and Elayne both tell Gawyn explicitly that Rand brought no harm to Morgase and he still held his grudge to kill him...what a moron
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  #48  
Old 12-08-2015, 02:37 PM
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The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.

The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing. Also, Gawyn believes a random peddler over all the most important people in his life? I mean, I know you're trying to write him to be stupid but that's pushing it.
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.

The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing. Also, Gawyn believes a random peddler over all the most important people in his life? I mean, I know you're trying to write him to be stupid but that's pushing it.
Gawyn was alright up to the point he got smacked in the head by mat. Then he became almost insufferable. The whole relationship with Egwene was silly. It actually would have made sense for Egwene to love Galad and and Gawyn the to turn to the darkside.

Then we could have had a duel between the two. With Galad Winning.

Mat and Elayne was a nice idea but it would have needed to be set up from the start. I.e. her having no relationship beyond friendship with Rand. Also- it would have made those scenes with her and Rand being cagey after she takes the throne more sensible as they wouldn't be lovers she'd just be his mates bird.

Edit: watching a Jason statham film. Hence the last sentence slipping in.
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  #50  
Old 12-08-2015, 10:19 PM
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Egwene/Gawyn actually makes a lot of sense when you consider certain parts of their personalities. I'm not trying to bash Egwene here, but one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion. Gawyn has been raised to kiss up to women. His mother was queen and his younger sister was to be the next one. Add Aes Sedai importance by Elaida's standards and we have an utterly spineless young man who is never going to disagree with a woman. Well maybe Gawyn isn't quite that extreme, but you see where I'm getting at. Gawyn is quite possibly the only man in the world who would put up with Egwene.

Elayne/Rand makes sense from Elayne's point of view, but not Rand's especially with Min and Aviendha in the mix. Rand is Elayne's chance to have a fairy tale romance instead of a political marriage and the fact that they don't spend much time together actually helps this as he can't show himself to be different from her fantasy lover.

From Rand's point of view it could make sense if at least one of the following were true:

1) Rand actually has the hots for Morgase and hopes that Elayne is a younger clone. Rand's Andor related actions make a lot more sense if one assumes this.

2) Rand sees Elayne as a means for keeping Aviendha and Min from killing each other.

3) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would kill him and herself otherwise.

4) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would break up with him.

5) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Min would break up with him.

6) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Min would insist on marriage and babies on the spot.

7) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would insist on marriage and babies on the spot.

8) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne in order to get her to bed and brag about it to Mat.

9) Rand would pretend to have feelings for any woman in order to get her to bed and brag about it to Mat.

10) Rand would pretend to have feelings for any woman in order to hide his secret relationship with Mat.

Okay that last one was just to get a full 10, though it was a great deal of fun to reread the whole thing while imagining that the ta'veren boys were gay for each other.
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  #51  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:14 PM
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My biggest disappointment in the books all revolved around Tuon and the Seanchan. A climax from the natural and dramatic tension between her character's prejudices and her relationship with Mat; the anticipation of a One Power revelation on Tuon's part that would set in motion a culture change amongst the Seanchan (perhaps even seeing her channel); Egwene learning how to disable the leash and nullifying the Seanchan's domination of channelers.

I was very emotionally invested in this story line because the Seanchan culture bothered me so much. To be honest, I was more invested in that story line and the moral/power implications than I was in the DO/Rand confrontation. Probably because it reflects real life (burqa) and thus meant more to me than an over-the-top armageddon battle. I also feel like this is where Robert Jordan excelled, taking real-life politics/prejudices/issues and inserting them into the wonderful world he built.
I would have liked this, but I'm also not surprised this didn't happen. For one, the best I was hoping for was a beginning to a resolution to the issue, not a final solution.

And it seemed like we got one, but it was pretty terrible. Tuon cannot possibly have been stupid enough to believe her recruiters will convince more women of Randland that being damane is good and desirable compared to Egwene's, promising freedom, power and access to the political and economic might of the Tower.

But beyond that, I'm not surprised we didn't see anything. RJ had always set up the Seanchan as a "Good" society with slavery. I never expected it to all be flipped in a few months.
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Old 12-08-2015, 11:22 PM
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Also, Mat's very firmly established opinions on right and wrong that are completely ignored in his relationship with Tuon. He'd never accept slavery ever...he always does the right thing on the big issues...so it's illogical that he'd accept their culture of slavery and abuse.
Agreed. I'm really surprised that his treason against the Seanchan Empire by letting the Sea Folk damane free never came up. That would have been a goot starting point from where they could have had him and Tuon discuss the issue.

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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).

The first won't work. For one, the moment the Sul'dam comes through to Egwene's side, she's start accidentally changing things, giving up the game. For another, the a'dam she uses will be real. I'm not sure how easily Egwene would have been able to get rid of it.

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The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.
Agreed. And it looks like RJ wasn't sure, till LoC, or even after.

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one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion.
Oh the irony of having these two statements next to each other!
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2015, 11:26 PM
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Oh the irony of having these two statements next to each other!
What irony?
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2015, 12:00 AM
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The first won't work. For one, the moment the Sul'dam comes through to Egwene's side, she's start accidentally changing things, giving up the game. For another, the a'dam she uses will be real. I'm not sure how easily Egwene would have been able to get rid of it.
You lack imagination. If Egwene is half as capable as she believes herself to be, she could hold the room steady. Sul'dam being there in the flesh would also be more stable. And Egwene could provide the a'dam, even offer it for examination. She may ebmven be capable of altering a real one. Rahvin could alter Rand.
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Old 12-09-2015, 02:49 AM
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You lack imagination. If Egwene is half as capable as she believes herself to be, she could hold the room steady. Sul'dam being there in the flesh would also be more stable. And Egwene could provide the a'dam, even offer it for examination. She may ebmven be capable of altering a real one. Rahvin could alter Rand.
Altering a physical object in TAR, that's so Rahvin...

sorry.

now, this does seem to be ever so slightly approaching an Egwene bashing topic....
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:02 AM
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The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing.
No, it is just Egwene.

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From Rand's point of view it could make sense if at least one of the following were true:
11) Rand is mad.

Love is actually easy to understand if you approach it rationally.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:09 AM
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No, it is just Egwene.

11) Rand is mad.

Love is actually easy to understand if you approach it rationally.
Doesn't apply gonzo. There are lots of ways to be mad without going after Elayne.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Egwene/Gawyn actually makes a lot of sense when you consider certain parts of their personalities. I'm not trying to bash Egwene here, but one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion. Gawyn has been raised to kiss up to women.
Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:29 AM
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Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.
Galad has a strict moral code that might require him to oppose Egwene. His kissing up to Egwene is a whim not a rule. Gawyn kisses up to her by default.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:53 AM
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Galad has a strict moral code that might require him to oppose Egwene. His kissing up to Egwene is a whim not a rule. Gawyn kisses up to her by default.
That's... an interesting opinion.
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