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  #21  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:29 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:02 AM
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And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?
Yes - such as perhaps he did with not only Guaire, but also Davian, Yurian Stonebow, and Raolin Darksbane. Either he is just born twice during each full turn of the wheel, at the AoL and TG equivalents, or he is spun out many times, with those two being true Dragon spinnings, the others being premature/corrective spinnings where the wheel needs him as a "False Dragon" to re-poison the memory of the Dragon between his two full spinnings. It could be as simple as ensuring that not all the prereqs were fulfilled, such as not being born on Dragonmount, or not of a Maiden. The main problem with your interpretation, is how then can we logically account for Hawkwing's claim of having fought both alongside and against him thousands of times. Unless by that he means merely as a spirit/Hero, there is no indication of them coexisting in the flesh. I just don't see how we can reasonably make sense of Hawkwing's comment without Rand being spun out more than twice per turning.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:14 AM
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Or maybe the Third Age is special in that then the Dragon can only be spun out once, whereas he can appear more times in other Ages.

We don't have any reason to think that the DO would reappear during the Fourth Age, so obviously having the Dragon be born then doesn't carry this risk. And the same is true for most of the Second Age, which may have been a lot longer than the Third Age anyway.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:11 AM
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Or maybe the Third Age is special in that then the Dragon can only be spun out once, whereas he can appear more times in other Ages.

We don't have any reason to think that the DO would reappear during the Fourth Age, so obviously having the Dragon be born then doesn't carry this risk. And the same is true for most of the Second Age, which may have been a lot longer than the Third Age anyway.
Maybe, but it seems to make more sense for the Heroes to be spun out only in the 2nd (Age of Legends) and 3rd (Age of Prophecy) Ages, with the 1st and 4th being largely empty cycles wherein the legends fade and are forgotten in part due to the absence of the Heroes. Which then leaves us with a problem in interpreting Hawkwing's comment unless both he and Rand are spun out many times, especially during the 3rd Age, as, excepting at the close of the 2nd, what need would there be for the presence of either of them in it?

Perhaps they coexisted in that climactic moment that concluded the 2nd Age, but then who is Hawkwing supposed to be? Culan Cuhan? No one else is mentioned but Aiel and channelers, and Culan Cuhan probably is an Aes Sedai as well. So if they didn't coexist in the flesh as Hawkwing and Guaire, then when? It also strikes me as odd that only those four are mentioned, and mentioned by Ishamael, as if intending for Rand to recognize that he was the sixth in a pattern - Lews Therin, Raolin, Yurian, Davian, Guaire, and then Rand. Two full incarnations, and four partial?

That pattern also has peculiar spacing:

Lews Therin - the Breaking (right at close of AoL)
Raolin Darksbane - 335 AB
Yurian Stonebow - 1300 AB (right at the close of AB)
Davian - 351 FY
Guaire Amalasan - 943 FY (right at the close of FY)
Rand al'Thor - 998 NE (right at close of NE)

Is some unnamed incarnation missing perhaps between Guaire and Rand, around 300-350 NE? Are Raolin and Davian red herrings? I still think it makes sense that those names were remembered for a reason...
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:33 AM
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Maybe, but it seems to make more sense for the Heroes to be spun out only in the 2nd (Age of Legends) and 3rd (Age of Prophecy) Ages, with the 1st and 4th being largely empty cycles wherein the legends fade and are forgotten in part due to the absence of the Heroes. Which then leaves us with a problem in interpreting Hawkwing's comment unless both he and Rand are spun out many times, especially during the 3rd Age, as, excepting at the close of the 2nd, what need would there be for the presence of either of them in it?
It also leaves us wondering what to do with inconvenient evidence, such as the fact that Gaidal Cain and Birgitte did actually get spun out in the Fourth Age. And the fact that some of the available evidence seems to come from yet another Age (with Moon landings and such).

Do you have a suggestion for how to overlook all that evidence?

Edited to add another inconvenient truth. Namely the fact that the Horn of Valere wasn't made in either the 2nd or the 3rd Age. So in at least one other Age were the Heroes known well enough to induce someone to manufacture that thing.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2016, 12:09 PM
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It also leaves us wondering what to do with inconvenient evidence, such as the fact that Gaidal Cain and Birgitte did actually get spun out in the Fourth Age. And the fact that some of the available evidence seems to come from yet another Age (with Moon landings and such).

Do you have a suggestion for how to overlook all that evidence?
Sure, Birgitte wasn't spun out this time, she was pulled out, and pulled out in the 3rd. Gaidal, while he'll come of age in the 4th, presumably was born right at the close of the 3rd. And there seems an obvious difference from the beginning of the 4th, when the memory of these legends will be fresh, and the close, when they should have faded, or fading with the full loss coming in the 1st. Do you have any evidence of either of them ever being spun out actually in the 4th, or moreover, in the 1st? If all you are pointing to is Birgitte's presence during TG and its aftermath, and Gaidal's proximate birth, that is in no way contrary to the point that I made.

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Edited to add another inconvenient truth. Namely the fact that the Horn of Valere wasn't made in either the 2nd or the 3rd Age. So in at least one other Age were the Heroes known well enough to induce someone to manufacture that thing.
We don't know when it was made, but if it was a relic found during the 2nd Age, and then stored for use in the 3rd, again it isn't in any way evidence against the point that I made. There is no evidence of its use in the 1st or the 4th. Its use would be remembered during the first few centuries, perhaps even nearly, or all, of the 4th. But there would be no clear need for its use, and it would be nothing but an odd relic, perhaps a museum piece with but a name, for the 1st Age, then with a prophecy in the 2nd explaining its need during the close of the 3rd. But there is no clear evidence of it being sounded more than once during each full turn of the wheel. Heroes bound to it would still be spun out in the 2nd and 3rd (perhaps even beginning of the 4th), but presumably not sounded, only used during those times as a repository, but only once as an instrument.

Last edited by Kimon; 10-02-2016 at 12:16 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2016, 01:30 PM
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And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?
He doesn't have a say while the Seals are still strong. The best you get is Ishamael who is partially sealed as well. Remember that when he is not one of the true incarnations he doesn't have a massive effect on the Pattern for the DO to read. He would just appear to be a normal Hero, if Heroes are always spun out to be Heroes and never as normal people.

On the other hand I don't think any of the false Dragons were a rebirth of Rand/LTT. Those were men who hungered power where Rand was driven by duty and by all accounts LTT wasn't an oppressive ruler so he must have had some sense of duty. The false Dragons experienced something that could be interpreted as a fulfillment of one of the prophesies and declared themselves as DR. How many before Rand accepted that he was the DR?

The false Dragons have a purpose, but that purpose requires them to be different sort of men than the true Dragon.
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2016, 08:00 AM
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Lews Therin - the Breaking (right at close of AoL)
Raolin Darksbane - 335 AB
Yurian Stonebow - 1300 AB (right at the close of AB)
Davian - 351 FY
Guaire Amalasan - 943 FY (right at the close of FY)
Rand al'Thor - 998 NE (right at close of NE)
Again that would make any sense only if the Wheel had very limited number of channeling-capable souls. That is not true especially because there were lot more channelers in AOL than in 3rd age so they could be re-spun and cover all needs without touching Dragon's soul.

For me I always thought the soul could be spun only once in the age and Dragons soul is very special meaning it pops up at the time it is actually needed.
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how then can we logically account for Hawkwing's claim of having fought both alongside and against him thousands of times.
Most likely Hawkwing, being summoned by The Horn, remembers all of his incarnations as well as times when he was summoned previously. So he could fight against the Dragon (as LTT) in the AOL and now he's fighting alongside and that gets repeated all the time with some twists.

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  #29  
Old 10-04-2016, 08:58 AM
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For me I always thought the soul could be spun only once in the age and Dragons soul is very special meaning it pops up at the time it is actually needed.
Birgitte was spun out a whole bunch of times in the Third Age. But simple statistics suggest that there are likely other souls who weren't spun out in the Third Age at all, since the population density was always relatively low during that period.

The Dragon Soul is special at the end of the 2nd Age and during the 3rd Age. So it stands to reason that it will only be spun out in specific times then. However, there's no indication that we know of that there were similar limitations in any other of the remaining five Ages (or indeed in most of the 2nd Age), so the Dragon can have been spun out frequently then.
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2016, 10:24 AM
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Again that would make any sense only if the Wheel had very limited number of channeling-capable souls. That is not true especially because there were lot more channelers in AOL than in 3rd age so they could be re-spun and cover all needs without touching Dragon's soul.
Your insistense depends on all souls being treated on equal terms. It may be that some souls get spun out very frequently while others wait a whole turn and in the next turning of the Wheel it might be the other way around. Think of the Pattern as giving tasks or a role to a soul that are in no way dependant on what that soul did in the previous turning. Normal souls are not tied to the Wheel.

For Heroes it is different. There are only a hundred or so, they get spun out frequently and the Pattern wants a specific soul for those roles for as many turnings as possible.

The question is is the Dragon a special role for an otherwise normal Hero soul or is it an even more special soul reserved for perhaps one role in each age.

Hawkwing's comment can mean one of the following:

1) Every single one of the fights happens when Rand is Lews Therin and Hawking means that during that incarnation he fights some battles on the same side and some on opposing side. He must be dead during TG and just before it or he wouldn't answer to the sounding of the Horn. This would allow the Rand only gets out twice in one Turn theory.

2) Rand gets spun out once per Age and in some of them Hawkwing is an enemy and in others he is a friend or possibly both as in option 1.

3) While Rand has the special incarnations as Dragon and Dragon Reborn he also gets incarnated as normal Heroes do and in these lives he and Hawkwing meet as enemies or friends or both.

4) It may be that being very strongly ta'veren is demanding even for a Hero's soul and so Rand and Hawkwing don't get more action during those two Ages, but in the other five they get spun out more frequently and Hawkwing's comment refers to battles in those Ages.

Personally I favour the third option, though once again I don't believe Rand is ever a false Dragon. A false Dragon has to have the kind of personality that easily believes he has fulfilled a prophecy and then declares himself as the Dragon Reborn. Rand clearly takes the view that if he doesn't fulfill every prophecy then isn't the real thing and anything else is coincidence. Of course I could be wrong in this and Rand being the way he is is more due to his upbringing than his basic nature or of course there is the point of taint madness. Still it feels wrong for Rand to be a false Dragon and especially wrong for him to be all of the ones before his time because there clearly are false Dragons that aren't Rand's incarnations. Since Taim and Logain are non-Rand false Dragons, why should the others be Rand's incarnations rather than for example Taim's and Logain's?
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  #31  
Old 10-04-2016, 01:07 PM
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But is it necessary for the Dragon reborn to fulfil prophecies in order to be the DR?
I would say that being the rebirth of the Dragon is what makes him the DR; those prophecies merely provide evidence to show (to himself and others) that he is the real deal.
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Old 10-04-2016, 01:56 PM
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But is it necessary for the Dragon reborn to fulfil prophecies in order to be the DR?
I would say that being the rebirth of the Dragon is what makes him the DR; those prophecies merely provide evidence to show (to himself and others) that he is the real deal.
The rebirth is the basis for his title. And that is all it is, a title. The Pattern has a role for him and that requires for both him and the world to realise that the duty is his. It is this role that defines who he is and what he must do. When the Pattern comes close to TG the DR is spun out for this role, but that does not mean he can't have other roles earlier in the Third Age. He simply doesn't have to be known as a rebirth of LTT for those roles.

This is like de facto vs de jure. At a certain age you get to buy booze, but your ability to handle it doesn't depend on having reached that age. If you are significantly younger you probably can't handle it and shouldn't be allowed to buy it, but just being older doesn't mean you can handle it and you definitely don't just flip from one to the other on the day you reach that age. It doesn't even mean that there is booze to buy or that you've got the money to buy it with. So in a de jure sense he is Dragon Reborn every time he is reborn, but without the de facto role in TG it's just a minor detail. Just because he is a rebirth doesn't mean there's a TG for him to have to handle.
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Old 10-04-2016, 04:48 PM
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Personally I favour the third option, though once again I don't believe Rand is ever a false Dragon. A false Dragon has to have the kind of personality that easily believes he has fulfilled a prophecy and then declares himself as the Dragon Reborn. Rand clearly takes the view that if he doesn't fulfill every prophecy then isn't the real thing and anything else is coincidence.
I find it difficult to make sense of Hawkwing's statement without this third option, moreover, it could also explain why sometimes Hawkwing fought by his side, and why at times he fought against him. The former would include as a bound Hero, such as at Falme and Merrilor, perhaps indeed all the times they fight on the same side are of this sort (since there is no clear indication, nor even hint, of Hawkwing active in the flesh in the AoL climax), of the Lews Therin-anima in the flesh, and the Hawkwing-anima in the spirit. But, that an uber-soul, like Hawkwing, was also needed for another particular, and extremely dangerous recurring circumstance, during the spinning out of the premature Rand-anima (i.e. as Guaire), wherein he is insane, probably is convinced that he is the Dragon, but is being manipulated by a combination of his own insanity and Ishamael. Thus as the True Dragon, Rand is there to save the world, and as the False (but well-intentioned crazy) Dragon, Hawkwing is there to save the world from him.

There is less reason to include the others, but for the fact that those are the historic false dragons that are named. I think a strong case for including at least Yurian as well upon the basis of his spinning marking the end of era. There is less reason for suggesting Raolin and Davian, basically just that they are named while the other false dragons were forgotten. That leaves me with the implication that they were perhaps Heroic animae, which would seem to suggest incarnations of Rand.

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  #34  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:55 PM
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I find it difficult to make sense of Hawkwing's statement without this third option, moreover, it could also explain why sometimes Hawkwing fought by his side, and why at times he fought against him. The former would include as a bound Hero, such as at Falme and Merrilor, perhaps indeed all the times they fight on the same side are of this sort (since there is no clear indication, nor even hint, of Hawkwing active in the flesh in the AoL climax), of the Lews Therin-anima in the flesh, and the Hawkwing-anima in the spirit. But, that an uber-soul, like Hawkwing, was also needed for another particular, and extremely dangerous recurring circumstance, during the spinning out of the premature Rand-anima (i.e. as Guaire), wherein he is insane, probably is convinced that he is the Dragon, but is being manipulated by a combination of his own insanity and Ishamael. Thus as the True Dragon, Rand is there to save the world, and as the False (but well-intentioned crazy) Dragon, Hawkwing is there to save the world from him.
Now you are contradicting yourself. If you insist that Rand gets more than his Dragon incarnations you have to allow Hawkwing's other incarnations. The comment makes perfect sense if Hawkwing and Rand both have lesser incarnations, but if only one of them is to have lesser ones that would be Hawkwing not Rand.

You also can't use the taint madness as proof that Rand has to be in the wrong. There are more roads to the darkness than that and in fact the one incarnation of Hawkwing we know of is often described as being manipulated by the Shadow, though usually from the WT PoV. Moreover neither of them has to be in the wrong. Sometimes one man's good stands in the way of another man's good. Assume for example that Hawkwing's life fitted well with the Arthurian legends and Rand was incarnated as Lancelot's counterpart.
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Old 10-04-2016, 07:54 PM
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Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):
"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham
In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Now you are contradicting yourself. If you insist that Rand gets more than his Dragon incarnations you have to allow Hawkwing's other incarnations. The comment makes perfect sense if Hawkwing and Rand both have lesser incarnations, but if only one of them is to have lesser ones that would be Hawkwing not Rand.
We aren't left with much to go on here. For Rand we have his two certain lives, plus hints that point at those specific false dragons. Nothing else, and of those, only Guaire really seeming obvious, due to Hawkwing's comment. But Hawkwing? There is only evidence for one life each cycle, and nothing that even serves as a hint for him appearing elsewhere. Who is he supposed to be in the AoL battle? It seems like RJ should have left a hint of someone that could have been him in that spinning, but aside for Culan Cuhan, there seemingly is no possibility. With Rand there are options, realistic possibilities. With Hawkwing there is absence. The only hint that we have in reference to Hawkwing's other lives is that comment that links him specifically to Rand, which is why Guaire only makes sense as Rand. Otherwise what Hawkwing said at Falme seems utter nonsense.

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You also can't use the taint madness as proof that Rand has to be in the wrong. There are more roads to the darkness than that and in fact the one incarnation of Hawkwing we know of is often described as being manipulated by the Shadow, though usually from the WT PoV. Moreover neither of them has to be in the wrong. Sometimes one man's good stands in the way of another man's good. Assume for example that Hawkwing's life fitted well with the Arthurian legends and Rand was incarnated as Lancelot's counterpart.
What wrong? Why are you reading any of those early false dragons as evil? Being able to channel meant they would go insane, and were dangerous, but none did anything that remotely qualified as evil in the books. Napoleon was a great conqueror that needed to be stopped, but that didn't make Napoleon evil, and Wellington good. I see a similar relationship between Guaire and Hawkwing.

Last edited by Kimon; 10-04-2016 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
We aren't left with much to go on here. For Rand we have his two certain lives, plus hints that point at those specific false dragons. Nothing else, and of those, only Guaire really seeming obvious, due to Hawkwing's comment. But Hawkwing? There is only evidence for one life each cycle, and nothing that even serves as a hint for him appearing elsewhere. Who is he supposed to be in the AoL battle? It seems like RJ should have left a hint of someone that could have been him in that spinning, but aside for Culan Cuhan, there seemingly is no possibility. With Rand there are options, realistic possibilities. With Hawkwing there is absence. The only hint that we have in reference to Hawkwing's other lives is that comment that links him specifically to Rand, which is why Guaire only makes sense as Rand. Otherwise what Hawkwing said at Falme seems utter nonsense.
What hints? You are trying to build a house of cards with nothing in the bottom. There are no hints anywhere about Rand being incarnated as an FD. We have Ishamael words that can be taken a number of different ways from poisoning Rand's mind against the WT to making him doubt he is the real thing. There is an era pattern, but that in no way indicates that Rand's soul is involved. We have Hawkwing's words which do imply non-Dragon incarnations, but absolutely no indication on when they occur. There aren't even any hints on FD having Hero souls at all.
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
What wrong? Why are you reading any of those early false dragons as evil? Being able to channel meant they would go insane, and were dangerous, but none did anything that remotely qualified as evil in the books. Napoleon was a great conqueror that needed to be stopped, but that didn't make Napoleon evil, and Wellington good. I see a similar relationship between Guaire and Hawkwing.
Isn't that other way round? Hawkwing was the mad conqueror that needed stopping like Napoleon. Guaire is closer to Wellington. He just lost in WoT.

And the point really isn't in what they are but what they do. You somehow can't get past Hawkwing and Rand fighting each other without Rand being an FD. The conditions that would allow this also allow for much more reasonable explanations than Rand being Guaire. Hawkwing first fighting against the Shadow with LTT and then against him when he went mad for one. How can you seriously throw that out of the window in favour of Rand being Guaire?
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Old 10-05-2016, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
What hints? You are trying to build a house of cards with nothing in the bottom. There are no hints anywhere about Rand being incarnated as an FD. We have Ishamael words that can be taken a number of different ways from poisoning Rand's mind against the WT to making him doubt he is the real thing. There is an era pattern, but that in no way indicates that Rand's soul is involved. We have Hawkwing's words which do imply non-Dragon incarnations, but absolutely no indication on when they occur. There aren't even any hints on FD having Hero souls at all.
?
Those are the hints - Ishamael's suggestion + Hawkwing's hint about fighting at times against him + those specific false dragons attaining enough glory to earn a name recognized through history. All that suggests Heroic souls to me, especially when their lives fit a pattern in their placements that includes Lews Therin and Rand. They seem intended to be seen as spokes on the wheel.

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And the point really isn't in what they are but what they do. You somehow can't get past Hawkwing and Rand fighting each other without Rand being an FD. The conditions that would allow this also allow for much more reasonable explanations than Rand being Guaire. Hawkwing first fighting against the Shadow with LTT and then against him when he went mad for one. How can you seriously throw that out of the window in favour of Rand being Guaire?
There is no evidence for Hawkwing during the War of Power. The only certain incarnation for him is with that famous name, and against Amalasan. The only certain time he fought alongside Rand is when the Horn is sounded.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:27 AM
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And the entire evidence for the idea that it didn't happen in an Age of which we have no information is that we don't have information from that Age. Which, all in all, is not particularly convincing to me.
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Old 10-05-2016, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
We still have an Interview Database.
So we don't actually know, we just have the interpretation of this Pam person.

Hmm, im dubious....
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