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  #41  
Old 10-05-2016, 10:51 AM
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Nazbaque Nazbaque is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Those are the hints - Ishamael's suggestion + Hawkwing's hint about fighting at times against him + those specific false dragons attaining enough glory to earn a name recognized through history. All that suggests Heroic souls to me, especially when their lives fit a pattern in their placements that includes Lews Therin and Rand. They seem intended to be seen as spokes on the wheel.



There is no evidence for Hawkwing during the War of Power. The only certain incarnation for him is with that famous name, and against Amalasan. The only certain time he fought alongside Rand is when the Horn is sounded.
You can't have it both ways Kimon. There is no evidence for Guaire being a Hero and even less for it to be Rand. If you insist that those hints count as evidence and frankly I don't even see them as hints, then absence of evidence not being evidence of absence you have to accept the possibility that Hawkwing was there during the AoL and is refering to that or that there are numerous incarnations we don't know about and thus Guaire doesn't have to be Rand for the comment to make sense.

If Rand can be Guaire, Hawkwing can be in the AoL and there can be a dozen or more incarnations for both just in the time between LTT and Rand. You can't insist that Rand being Guaire is the only sensible explanation for the comment when the condition for that open up so many other possibilities.

Your insistence on no evidence about Hawkwing in AoL is particularly flimsy when two of the core points in WoT is that Rand being LTT is the only definitely known reincarnation and much of AoL is forgotten. If Hawkwing's comment doesn't count as a hint/evidence for his AoL incarnation then it doesn't count for Rand being Guaire. Nothing Ishamael says counts as hints or evidence when he could be lying, mistaken or delusional. The era pattern only shows a more specific part of the Pattern, but we already know that false Dragons turn up when the Pattern prepares for the real one so there is no reason why the end of era FDs can't be like Logain. You could even say that Logain's choices for false names are a hint of him being a reincarnation for those FD and the one he wanted but Siuan wouldn't allow was Guaire.
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  #42  
Old 10-05-2016, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
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Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
So we don't actually know, we just have the interpretation of this Pam person.

Hmm, im dubious....
We also have the direct quote from RJ that the Dragon Soul is spun out in non-dragon incarnations in other ages.

That pretty much settles the question of when "Hawkwing" and "LTT" could have fought together and against each other.

Over the time I've been here at Theoryland, the consensus has always been consistent with Pam's assertion: Heroes are known by the name of their last incarnation. IMHO, it is the only explanation that doesn't raise more questions than it answers.
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  #43  
Old 10-05-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
You can't have it both ways Kimon. There is no evidence for Guaire being a Hero and even less for it to be Rand. If you insist that those hints count as evidence and frankly I don't even see them as hints, then absence of evidence not being evidence of absence you have to accept the possibility that Hawkwing was there during the AoL and is refering to that or that there are numerous incarnations we don't know about and thus Guaire doesn't have to be Rand for the comment to make sense.

If Rand can be Guaire, Hawkwing can be in the AoL and there can be a dozen or more incarnations for both just in the time between LTT and Rand. You can't insist that Rand being Guaire is the only sensible explanation for the comment when the condition for that open up so many other possibilities.

Your insistence on no evidence about Hawkwing in AoL is particularly flimsy when two of the core points in WoT is that Rand being LTT is the only definitely known reincarnation and much of AoL is forgotten. If Hawkwing's comment doesn't count as a hint/evidence for his AoL incarnation then it doesn't count for Rand being Guaire. Nothing Ishamael says counts as hints or evidence when he could be lying, mistaken or delusional. The era pattern only shows a more specific part of the Pattern, but we already know that false Dragons turn up when the Pattern prepares for the real one so there is no reason why the end of era FDs can't be like Logain. You could even say that Logain's choices for false names are a hint of him being a reincarnation for those FD and the one he wanted but Siuan wouldn't allow was Guaire.
This is illogical, Naz. Hawkwing clearly states that he has fought against and with Rand. We have a clear example of the latter, when the Horn was sounded at Falme. For the former, the only reasonable option is Guaire. We have no evidence for Hawkwing active in AoL. Maybe he was there, but that is an argument from silence. You need to come up with another rational explanation for him fighting against Rand. Guaire would. Yurian and the others wouldn't, which is why I find them less likely than Guaire, but for their names. Weird Harold at least gives a reasonable counter argument, that if Rand was Guaire, then why not address him as Guaire at Falme. That is a reasonable argument. Yours is not.
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  #44  
Old 10-05-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
This is illogical, Naz. Hawkwing clearly states that he has fought against and with Rand. We have a clear example of the latter, when the Horn was sounded at Falme. For the former, the only reasonable option is Guaire. We have no evidence for Hawkwing active in AoL. Maybe he was there, but that is an argument from silence. You need to come up with another rational explanation for him fighting against Rand. Guaire would. Yurian and the others wouldn't, which is why I find them less likely than Guaire, but for their names. Weird Harold at least gives a reasonable counter argument, that if Rand was Guaire, then why not address him as Guaire at Falme. That is a reasonable argument. Yours is not.
Oh please the only unreasonable part here is your inability to let go of an idea. You aren't suggesting this as a possibility, but insist that it's the only one that makes sense. So prove it. Prove in a clear way that Hawkwing wasn't there in AoL. Prove that within the entire turning of the Wheel there are no moments when Rand and Hawkwing meet other than the Sounding and Rand being Guaire. And remember Kimon: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. Just because we don't get hints about something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Oh please the only unreasonable part here is your inability to let go of an idea. You aren't suggesting this as a possibility, but insist that it's the only one that makes sense. So prove it. Prove in a clear way that Hawkwing wasn't there in AoL. Prove that within the entire turning of the Wheel there are no moments when Rand and Hawkwing meet other than the Sounding and Rand being Guaire. And remember Kimon: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. Just because we don't get hints about something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.
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  #46  
Old 10-05-2016, 07:19 PM
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It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.
No, not really. We have several other Ages, spanning who knows how many centuries, if not millennia, a piece. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that Rand and Artur met in those lives, under different names. Both with and against each other.

Artur, and indeed, the other Heroes of the Horn, addressing Rand as Lews Therin, only promotes the idea that Rand's last life was as LTT. Even the Dark One calls him Lews Therin. Not "Guaire" or "Yurian", but "Lews Therin".

And what if, say that in a different age, someone sounded the horn to call forth the Dragon and the other Heroes to fight against that incarnation of Artur Hawking?

Your theory on Rand HAVING to be a previous False Dragon would mean disregarding previous ages and incarnations of people within the WOT universe, and long established facts about it. Or at the very least, heavily limiting the possibilities while, still, disregarding previous Ages and lives.
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  #47  
Old 10-05-2016, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
No, not really. We have several other Ages, spanning who knows how many centuries, if not millennia, a piece. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that Rand and Artur met in those lives, under different names. Both with and against each other.

Artur, and indeed, the other Heroes of the Horn, addressing Rand as Lews Therin, only promotes the idea that Rand's last life was as LTT. Even the Dark One calls him Lews Therin. Not "Guaire" or "Yurian", but "Lews Therin".

And what if, say that in a different age, someone sounded the horn to call forth the Dragon and the other Heroes to fight against that incarnation of Artur Hawking?

Your theory on Rand HAVING to be a previous False Dragon would mean disregarding previous ages and incarnations of people within the WOT universe, and long established facts about it. Or at the very least, heavily limiting the possibilities while, still, disregarding previous Ages and lives.
The problem with the other ages is that their purpose seems less inclined towards the creation of myths, and hence of Heroes. The 2nd Age is the Age of Legends, the 3rd Age is the Age of Prophecy. The 4th and 1st Ages are resets. It's not completely outside the realm of possibility, but Heroes belong in the mythic past, in those ages of legend and prophecy. By contrast, ours seemingly is meant to the the 1st Age. So to find a potential example from the silence of the 1st Age one would be left with only the potential of elements from our own history, like of Napoleon and Wellington. But that would be disregarding the obvious to embrace the outlandish. Guaire is the only example in the books that makes sense of what Hawkwing said. It is, however, not without its own problems, but it still seems the situation that was meant to be immediately envisioned from what Hawkwing said. That does not mean that it may not just be a red herring.
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  #48  
Old 10-05-2016, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
But that would be disregarding the obvious to embrace the outlandish
As opposed to disregarding the Creator's Word that the Dragon Soul is incarnated in other ages in non-dragon roles?

Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that LTT was NOT incarnate since the Breaking and HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.
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  #49  
Old 10-05-2016, 11:41 PM
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As opposed to disregarding the Creator's Word that the Dragon Soul is incarnated in other ages in non-dragon roles?

Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that LTT was NOT incarnate since the Breaking and HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.
Quote:
Pam Basham
Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):
"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.
I don't see a conflict here between what I'm suggesting and what RJ said here. He doesn't say that the Dragon soul is only spun out as the Dragon during the 2nd or 3rd. Guaire would be a non-dragon spinning. This strikes me as similar to the Taimandred situation, in that it is nigh impossible to read that Hawkwing passage and not think immediately of Guaire. That might just have been an intentional red herring, but either way, it seems intentional.

Concerning the other issue, the naming conventions, are we really sure that Birgitte's most recent name was Birgitte? She was frequently spun, many times in the 3rd, and we know of at least one other name that she had been known by, Maerion. Birgitte clearly is the most famous, but the most recent?
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  #50  
Old 10-06-2016, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.
Oh and isn't that the real point here. You take this personally. You think my general attitude counts as evidence one way or another.

Well then, let's get personal.

Your answer to the AoL Hawkwing suggestion is "no evidence, doesn't make sense." and then I'm difficult by saying that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I take the view that there are several possibilities, but you are the one who insists on a specific one and then I'm difficult by demanding that you prove it.

This clearly shows that you haven't learned a certain lesson which I have and that is humility in face of the unknown.

And then you go and use the word "logical" in a way which shows that like most people you don't understand the concept.

I take this thread as proof that I am your mental superior. And now that I've said it you think even less of me and quite probably so do other people. But for me finding this proof is another setback, because I want to find someone who can keep up with me. I've had such hopes for some people and I still do, but for you Kimon it is clear that at least for now your vanity still holds you back.

How's that for personal?
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  #51  
Old 10-06-2016, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that ... HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.
That particular consensus seems a bit weakened by the fact that it does not actually apply to the Hero we know most about: Birgitte. She has had a bunch of other names, and her last known incarnation (the one in which she went into the ToG) was hardly known at all by the time of the main events in the books.

It seems more likely that they're known by whatever name for them is best known. Basically the same thing that the Forsaken did, albeit with somewhat different connotations to it.
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2016, 04:44 AM
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That particular consensus seems a bit weakened by the fact that it does not actually apply to the Hero we know most about: Birgitte. She has had a bunch of other names, and her last known incarnation (the one in which she went into the ToG) was hardly known at all by the time of the main events in the books.

It seems more likely that they're known by whatever name for them is best known. Basically the same thing that the Forsaken did, albeit with somewhat different connotations to it.
Do we actually see another T'A'R state Hero call her "Birgitte"? I don't really agree with this consensus either, but just because most characters call her "Birgitte" doesn't mean she is called that in T'A'R.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:55 AM
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Your answer to the AoL Hawkwing suggestion is "no evidence, doesn't make sense." and then I'm difficult by saying that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I take the view that there are several possibilities, but you are the one who insists on a specific one and then I'm difficult by demanding that you prove it.
No, Naz. I'm saying that I think hypothetical scenarios from outside what was written in the books should hold less weight than what was written in the books.

Quote:
This clearly shows that you haven't learned a certain lesson which I have and that is humility in face of the unknown.

And then you go and use the word "logical" in a way which shows that like most people you don't understand the concept.

I take this thread as proof that I am your mental superior.
This is exactly the kind of issue that I was referring to with my earlier comment, Naz.
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:53 AM
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Do we actually see another T'A'R state Hero call her "Birgitte"? I don't really agree with this consensus either, but just because most characters call her "Birgitte" doesn't mean she is called that in T'A'R.
That's the name she uses when talking to living people:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 52, Need
"I am Birgitte," the woman said, leaning on her bow. "At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well-read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin's side. I will never forget Moghedien's face, any more than I will forget the face of Asmodean, the man you almost disturbed at Rhuidean."
So, it is possible that Hawkwing doesn't use LTT because that is what he uses in TAR, but because that's the name that Rand and the others would recognise.
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Old 10-06-2016, 08:31 AM
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No, Naz. I'm saying that I think hypothetical scenarios from outside what was written in the books should hold less weight than what was written in the books.
And Guaire = Rand was written where exactly? Hawkwing's comment can just as easily be taken as a hint for him being there in AoL or several other ways. It's only in your head that it points to Guaire = Rand. Logain's wish to use Guaire as an alias is a much clearer hint for him having been Guaire, but you won't even comment on that. Are you just disregarding the books when they don't support your ideas?

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This is exactly the kind of issue that I was referring to with my earlier comment, Naz.
See? Your vanity holds you back. You have no humility and therefore can't be truly logical.
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:30 AM
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And Guaire = Rand was written where exactly? Hawkwing's comment can just as easily be taken as a hint for him being there in AoL or several other ways. It's only in your head that it points to Guaire = Rand. Logain's wish to use Guaire as an alias is a much clearer hint for him having been Guaire, but you won't even comment on that. Are you just disregarding the books when they don't support your ideas?
In AoL, if Hawkwing was there, of which there is no certainty, they would be fighting on the same side. With Guaire, not only was Hawkwing obviously there, but it would be a situation in which they would be fighting on opposite sides.

You're going to have to point me to a citation with Logain calling himself Guaire, because it's not ringing a bell, and after a quick search, I can't find anything on it. I remember Logain using the alias Dalyn, when/where does he call himself Guaire?

Addendum:

Finally found what you were referring to - Siuan talked him out of calling himself Guaire, and he took the alias Dalyn instead. Better argument, but yeah, this one is more like WH's issue with why doesn't Hawkwing call Rand Guaire instead of Lewis Therin.

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Old 10-06-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
In AoL, if Hawkwing was there, of which there is no certainty, they would be fighting on the same side. With Guaire, not only was Hawkwing obviously there, but it would be a situation in which they would be fighting on opposite sides.
Hawkwing in AoL:

1) Hawkwing fights for the Light with LTT. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

2) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing dies.

3) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light and fights with LTT. Hawkwing dies.

4) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light and fights with LTT. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

5) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

6) Darkfriend Hawkwing fights against LTT.

Problems:

1) How long between LTT going mad and LTT dying? Has Hawkwing a chance to face him?

2) Can Heroes be darkfriends? If not why bother trying to turn Rand?

3) Can Hawkwing survive in Shadow territory without taking dark oaths and binding his soul to the DO? Would those bonds break in death? Rand broke Asmodean's connection to the DO so any bond between Hawkwing and DO should be breakable. Lanfear however didn't know that it was possible so could it have happened without her knowledge? Or did she know and simply assume that a Forsaken's bond was beyond breaking? Hawkwing isn't a channeler and it is suggested numerous times that they are more vulnerable to the DO's methods.


I think there could be other possibilities, but I concentrated on the ones where Hawkwing might fight against LTT without being directly tied to the Shadow. Also we would do well to remember Verin's example in this. Heroes tied to the Shadow might still work against it in the end.

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
You're going to have to point me to a citation with Logain calling himself Guaire, because it's not ringing a bell, and after a quick search, I can't find anything on it. I remember Logain using the alias Dalyn, when/where does he call himself Guaire?

Addendum:

Finally found what you were referring to - Siuan talked him out of calling himself Guaire, and he took the alias Dalyn instead. Better argument, but yeah, this one is more like WH's issue with why doesn't Hawkwing call Rand Guaire instead of Lewis Therin.
Yet you see my point don't you? If Rand was Guaire then the Logain hint is just a red herring. But if Logain was Guaire, then you are reading too much into the Guaire/Hawkwing situation. Or both assumptions could be wrong.

One unfortunately likely explanation for any hint is RJ trollocing with red herrings, so we need more solid evidence than "it makes sense". We are looking for the truth and Occam's Razor is a poor tool for that endeavour.
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:59 PM
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This thread is amazing. Haven't seen anyone seriously make this argument in years.

Other arguments aside, how can the real Dragon be a false Dragon? I mean, obviously he's sometimes born in a non-Dragon incarnation, but he can't be a false Dragon.

If Guaire Amalasan is anyone we know, it's Logain.
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Old 10-07-2016, 04:53 AM
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This thread is amazing. Haven't seen anyone seriously make this argument in years.

Other arguments aside, how can the real Dragon be a false Dragon? I mean, obviously he's sometimes born in a non-Dragon incarnation, but he can't be a false Dragon.

If Guaire Amalasan is anyone we know, it's Logain.
This is one beef I have with the idea, but it depends on how you define a false Dragon. There is the right time in the Pattern for Rand to be the DR, if he tries to be the Dragon in an in between incarnation he would have the true soul but it would be the false time.

My main beef is Rand's personality. Forcing him to believe he is the DR takes three books or at least the second and third book as the first book concentrates more and establishing the world itself. How would he come to believe it? Only after the taint madness sets in and then he might not live long enough to become a Guaire level threat.
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Old 10-07-2016, 06:37 AM
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How to define a false Dragon is quite simple:
Someone who claims to be the Dragon reborn without actually being the Dragon reborn.

The other option, that of the Dragon being reborn without being the DR because the Pattern is telling lies seems rather out of character based on all we know.
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