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  #261  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I feel kind of bad for the people who actually believed he was going to stick it to banksters and globalists. But, I suspect 90% of his enthusiastic supporters don't even know what globalism is really and they just like him because he's not PC.
I don't. Anyone with enough brain cells to rub together saw this coming...


...so you might be right.
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  #262  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
I don't. Anyone with enough brain cells to rub together saw this coming...


...so you might be right.
His supporters seemed more motivated by a hatred for Hillary, for Mexicans, and for Muslims. Quite a few of his voters likely hated NAFTA too, but likely most of them also hate unions, which is slightly dissonant in of itself.

The CIA isn't mincing any words anymore though about one of his most influential supporters...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.aeb2c2e80048

Quote:
The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.

Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials. Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton’s chances.
Quote:
The CIA shared its latest assessment with key senators in a closed-door briefing on Capitol Hill last week, in which agency officials cited a growing body of intelligence from multiple sources. Agency briefers told the senators it was now “quite clear” that electing Trump was Russia’s goal, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.
This isn't exactly new, but they hadn't previously been so blunt. It's interesting that they would choose to do so now, right before they will have to begin working with Trump. Perhaps this is a sign of just how irritated the intelligence community is with how infrequently Trump has been bothering to even sit for what should have been daily intel briefings since his election, instead just having Pence do them all.

Trump's reaction's isn't surprising, but perhaps isn't a good sign for what the relationship will be like between his administration and the CIA, especially considering how nutty his national security advisor, Flynn (assuming his, and his son's, antics don't get him forced out before the inauguration), is.

Quote:
The Trump transition team dismissed the findings in a short statement issued Friday evening. “These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again,’ ” the statement read.
  #263  
Old 12-10-2016, 11:40 AM
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Well, for once, Trump is sort of almost right about the WMD thing. Apart from the fact that there the intelligence agencies were a lot less adamant about how certain things were than the (Republican) politicians who used those findings.
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  #264  
Old 12-10-2016, 03:45 PM
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And now the CEO of Exxon for Secretary of State. Guy has more Russian ties than Macy's in Moscow.
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  #265  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I feel kind of bad for the people who actually believed he was going to stick it to banksters and globalists. But, I suspect 90% of his enthusiastic supporters don't even know what globalism is really and they just like him because he's not PC.
I dont because no matter what they'll still support him and blame his flipflopping on others. Those same morons will vote for him enthusiastically in 4 years. They're complete morons that deserve what they get.
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  #266  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:33 PM
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And now the CEO of Exxon for Secretary of State. Guy has more Russian ties than Macy's in Moscow.
Yeah but all the evidence that shows Putin helped swing the election are complete lies by the CIA and intelligence community. Right? Right?
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  #267  
Old 12-11-2016, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Yeah but all the evidence that shows Putin helped swing the election are complete lies by the CIA and intelligence community. Right? Right?
Obviously, everyone will remember that when Trump wants to start a war based on what he claims is solid intelligence from the CIA.
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  #268  
Old 12-11-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Obviously, everyone will remember that when Trump wants to start a war based on what he claims is solid intelligence from the CIA.
Here is the gist of the spin that he and his surrogates have been attempting to give the report this morning:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38282533

Quote:
Mr Trump told Fox News Sunday: "I think it's ridiculous. I think it's just another excuse. I don't believe it."
He said the Democrats were behind the news reports, not the CIA, because they suffered such a big defeat.
Republican party spokesman Sean Spicer said the party had not been hacked and the intelligence report was wrong.
Mr Trump also said in the interview:
he does not require daily intelligence briefings because he's a "smart person"
his children will run his company but will not "make deals"
That Spicer comment above is a reference to this reveal by the CIA:

Quote:
Russians had hacked the Republican party but chose not to reveal the contents of what they found, the reports said.
So essentially - It's all a dem conspiracy, and apparently the CIA works for the dems, so his supporters shouldn't trust them. And, Trump doesn't need to bother with daily intel briefings because he is "smart".
  #269  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:39 PM
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So essentially - It's all a dem conspiracy, and apparently the CIA works for the dems, so his supporters shouldn't trust them. And, Trump doesn't need to bother with daily intel briefings because he is "smart".
All of which, I have to say, makes at least as much sense as the rest of the things Trump has been saying the last year or so.
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  #270  
Old 12-11-2016, 04:07 PM
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All of which, I have to say, makes at least as much sense as the rest of the things Trump has been saying the last year or so.
Well you know how in American politics slightly less right is left. In exactly the same way slightly less stupid is smart. And I know what you want say, that Trump can't possibly be slightly less stupid compared to anyone, but there are all those people who voted for him. Just like with the right wing democrates there are the even further right republicans. And I mean exactly like that.
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  #271  
Old 12-11-2016, 05:34 PM
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Dammit. Must spread rep...
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  #272  
Old 12-11-2016, 06:40 PM
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Dammit. Must spread rep...
I've said too many awesome things and cannot be repped at the moment? I'm sorry, but I'm not changing for you. I'm not getting less awesome, you'll just have to get more rep.
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  #273  
Old 12-11-2016, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I dont because no matter what they'll still support him and blame his flipflopping on others. Those same morons will vote for him enthusiastically in 4 years. They're complete morons that deserve what they get.
I mean, is it ethically or morally wrong to be stupid? They can't help it can they? I mean, I try to have sympathy for folks like that.
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  #274  
Old 12-11-2016, 09:49 PM
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You & Naz both it seems.


Also, I think I've got figured out Trump's plan. See, I was in the shower getting an early start for tomorrow (we're getting snowed-in again, and the last time my 40 minute commute turned into 2 hours, so, yeah, let's avoid that), and it hit me...fight fire with fire. Only in this case, burning the swamp wouldn't work, since it's water not fire.

So in order to properly drain the swamp, you have to fight water with water. So all the people he's appointing? Yeah, he's going to "Drain the Swamp", by flooding the swamp.

It's brillant.

Slow clap.

We're privileged to live in such times my friends.
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  #275  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
You & Naz both it seems.


Also, I think I've got figured out Trump's plan. See, I was in the shower getting an early start for tomorrow (we're getting snowed-in again, and the last time my 40 minute commute turned into 2 hours, so, yeah, let's avoid that), and it hit me...fight fire with fire. Only in this case, burning the swamp wouldn't work, since it's water not fire.

So in order to properly drain the swamp, you have to fight water with water. So all the people he's appointing? Yeah, he's going to "Drain the Swamp", by flooding the swamp.

It's brillant.

Slow clap.

We're privileged to live in such times my friends.
...Been saying this for the last week or so.
  #276  
Old 12-12-2016, 01:53 AM
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I mean, is it ethically or morally wrong to be stupid? They can't help it can they? I mean, I try to have sympathy for folks like that.
Well it doesn't necessarily make them evil, but it's like cars and guns. Some people just don't know how to handle them safely so they shouldn't be allowed to or accidents happen. Now they don't mean the accidents to happen, but saying "sorry" won't bring back the people who fell to their lack in ability handle guns or cars. Some people have no idea how a country operates. They don't understand diplomacy or economics. Their opinion on who should be responsible for the decisions made in the name of the country is not reliable and so when they are allowed to vote accidents happen.

Of course there are different problems in establishing quality control on voters. Who gets to decide who gets to vote? But even if by some miracle you establish a system where everyone who should have a vote does and everyone who shouldn't doesn't, maintaining it must be a bureaucratic nightmare.
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  #277  
Old 12-12-2016, 04:01 AM
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But even if by some miracle you establish a system where everyone who should have a vote does and everyone who shouldn't doesn't, maintaining it must be a bureaucratic nightmare.
Put Trump in charge of that. What could possibly go wrong then?
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  #278  
Old 12-12-2016, 05:11 AM
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Well it doesn't necessarily make them evil, but it's like cars and guns. Some people just don't know how to handle them safely so they shouldn't be allowed to or accidents happen.
On the one hand I agree in principle; on the other hand I disagree on principle. People who were not blessed with great intelligence are a significant subset of the population whose rights and representation should not be universally infringed upon. And in American politics, as everywhere else I'm sure, there are idiots on both sides of the aisle.

I have a bad habit of hanging out solely on booknerd forums; I've done that for more than a decade now. It's a whole new world over on Reddit; r/dbz is absolutely full of Trump supporters, some enthusiastic. There are a lot of them who were those elusive maybe-Bernie, maybe-Trump people in the primaries.

Anyway, it's kind of refreshing not to be insulated from that anymore, and it's not nearly as toxic as the Polandball community, for example. It was hard to deal with there a lot of the time; I stopped paying attention it and I never check the subreddit. Something that comes up a lot on Malazan is the right-wing populism breaking out all across Europe and how it relates to the Trump phenomenon, and the Polandball community is majority European.

These r/dbz people are young, 18-23 on average for the most part, and they absolutely remind me of this Resnikoff piece on the nebulous populistic tendencies of that generation.

People love to make comparisons between Trump and you-know-who, but it's worth noting that we had liberal populism here at home when all that was going on.
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  #279  
Old 12-12-2016, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
On the one hand I agree in principle; on the other hand I disagree on principle. People who were not blessed with great intelligence are a significant subset of the population whose rights and representation should not be universally infringed upon. And in American politics, as everywhere else I'm sure, there are idiots on both sides of the aisle.
Intelligence isn't the point. The whole concept of IQ and the various tests that attempt to measure it are flawed on a fundamental level. They measure the potential efficiency of the brain, not the mental skills of its owner. They measure intelligence not wisdom. Wisdom is not denied to the less intelligent it is simply harder to achieve. Unwise voters result in unwise voting and that results in unwise decisions.

If this is about rights then there are two rights that can't coexist. The right to vote and the right to wise leadership. If you want the latter then all those who have the right to vote must earn it and use it wisely and it therefore can't be free for anyone who reaches a certain age.

This is a great example on why freedom is bullshit. People want to be free from a lot of things and for quite a few of them being free from one is in conflict with being free from another. Maintaining good relations with friends and family involves responsibilities and fullfilling those responsibilities can be tough, but your only other option is to give up on your freedom from loneliness. Free from loneliness or free from responsibility. Can't have both.

Every right has a price. Always consider if they are worth it.
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  #280  
Old 12-12-2016, 10:27 AM
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You say that as if restricting democracy has ever consistently produced wise leadership.
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