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  #341  
Old 12-13-2016, 08:10 PM
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No, its mostly racism, ethnocentrism, fear/anger at the outsider....all typical societal responses to change and not a surprise given how tribal in nature humans are.
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  #342  
Old 12-13-2016, 09:00 PM
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Yeah... so about that... I come from the South in America. I know old-fashioned racism when I see it, and...

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  #343  
Old 12-13-2016, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez
As far as I can tell, no one uses it except you and Frenzy.
i also still have a computer with a floppy disk drive
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  #344  
Old 12-13-2016, 10:57 PM
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Me too!

Do you believe these savages Frenzy? Not using threaded view? It's like...inconceivable how they manage to get through the day.
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  #345  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Frenzy View Post
i also still have a computer with a floppy disk drive
Well, duh! I also have a computer that still uses a tape recorder for storage (I haven't actually started this computer this millennium, and I'm not sure I could attach it to the not-very-modern-any-more television which would have to function as monitor). That doesn't mean that I have to use this so called "shredded view".
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  #346  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
It's exactly that attitude that got us in this mess in the first place.

"I'm not happy about x or y"
"You racist!"

"I feel like our politicians aren't working in our best interests"
"You stupid redneck!"

Thing is that we never had a huge problem with racism here in Scandinavia. Sure there's racists and neo-nazis here too, but nowhere near what you got in the US.
I am in the same boat as SP, I guess, having been raised in the Deep South. Maybe even more so because I was specifically raised in Confederate culture to the point of having gotten a scholarship from the UDC (United Daughters of the Confederacy) when I first went to college in 1996. You have to have at least one ancestor who fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War to be in the UDC or related organizations; I have seven.

The reason we have problems with racism in the US is simple: we have racial diversity. When you have racial and cultural diversity, you're going to have scapegoating for all of society's ills.

In my experience, Europeans tend to be very naive about their own racial prejudices precisely because of widespread racial homogeneity. Because you don't have the same history of racial diversity and subjugation, even liberal-minded Europeans are often ignorant of the sociology of race.

As I mentioned earlier, I became intimately familiar with this phenomenon when I was hanging around Polandball. It's not like I was unaware of it before; I'd seen it here and on other global forums I attend, but those forums have built-in quality filters because of the subject matter and as I'm sure you're aware Polandball is not much of a filter.

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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
I'm a happy viking. I live in a country with plenty of resources. I most likely got a job, and if not I get enough money to live from the country. Sure, there's some lazy assholes mooching off this, but it's not a huge problem.

Then enter globalism and multi-culturalism. We take in more and more refugees (or rather welfare-migrants). Quite a lot of them can't (or wont) get a job and end up being a net loss for my country. They also bring with them a lot of crime.
From the sociological perspective we're taught in the US, there are already a lot of questions being glossed over here. Crime almost always stems from poverty, and when a particular group suffers from poverty more than other groups, we have to ask why. Do they suffer from discrimination more than other groups? e.g. would a very qualified immigrant have a hard time getting a job because natives are favored? What is the overall experience of immigrants when they try to assimilate? Are they treated well, merely tolerated? How often do they have to deal with verbal abuse and even violence because of their race/culture/religion? What effect do these things have on the community as a whole? And what can be done to mitigate this problem aside from nationalist solutions?

You explained you'd prefer a moderate approach in government which is good but I'm just talking about the implication that Scandinavians are somehow less racist than white people in the US. And don't get me wrong; lots of Americans will make arguments similar to yours. They're typically conservative nationalists. I'm talking about the difference between American and European liberals, from my personal experience.
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  #347  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
In other news, Governor Rick Perry selected to run Energy...so I guess his "smart person" glasses make him qualified to oversee our nuclear energy program, eh?
I have not been following the news at all recently because it's incredibly and bizarrely depressing and because I've been busy with many things. But when I read this I was sure at first that it had to be a joke. Then I realized it probably wasn't, but it was so depressing that I didn't google it until just now. Was kind of still hoping it was a joke.
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  #348  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:50 AM
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It is. It is a practical joke played on the American people by Trump. Eventually, he'll tell all the voters "you're fired" and become dictator for life. Only when that too is taken seriously will he realise that he has a problem.
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  #349  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I have not been following the news at all recently because it's incredibly and bizarrely depressing and because I've been busy with many things. But when I read this I was sure at first that it had to be a joke. Then I realized it probably wasn't, but it was so depressing that I didn't google it until just now. Was kind of still hoping it was a joke.
It is, if nothing else, somewhat ironic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvmKnFY4uk

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  #350  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:51 AM
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I guess he must have gotten that IQ test that Trump demanded he take before participating in the Republican Debates back in June of last year.
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  #351  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
It is, if nothing else, somewhat ironic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvmKnFY4uk

Energy was that third agency...
Yes, that is why I thought it must be a joke.
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  #352  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The reason we have problems with racism in the US is simple: we have racial diversity. When you have racial and cultural diversity, you're going to have scapegoating for all of society's ills.
That's true. Which is why we haven't really had proper racism (by that I mean "I hate <insert color> people because they are inferior to me".

I think much of the problem (and like 95% of the discussion about it) is that racism isn't defined anymore. So people always end up discussing different things and end up pissed off.

I for one don't see what we're seeing in Sweden now, and to a lesser degree in Norway and Denmark as racism. I see it as Dav said. Anger/fear at seeing our way of life/country threatened and frustration at not being able to punish those responsible (the politicians). Which is pretty much the most human reaction that exists since we're still animals no matter how hard some people try to deny it.

Mix that with a dominant (as far as press goes) left side that throws the racist card around constantly and you will slowly, but surely end up with what I call proper racism, because it's the only choice left.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
In my experience, Europeans tend to be very naive about their own racial prejudices precisely because of widespread racial homogeneity. Because you don't have the same history of racial diversity and subjugation, even liberal-minded Europeans are often ignorant of the sociology of race.
IMO what we're seeing now has less to do with race and more to do with money. Europe(western/northern) has generally been pretty well off. So even with some immigrant issues people haven't really been affected too much. It's just that over time money has been getting scarcer and scarcer and now the problems are getting too expensive to handle. So your average Joe European is actually getting affected in a negative way. Which pisses him off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
As I mentioned earlier, I became intimately familiar with this phenomenon when I was hanging around Polandball. It's not like I was unaware of it before; I'd seen it here and on other global forums I attend, but those forums have built-in quality filters because of the subject matter and as I'm sure you're aware Polandball is not much of a filter.
That is true. While I love Polandball, it's not where I go to get a balanced viewpoint

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
From the sociological perspective we're taught in the US, there are already a lot of questions being glossed over here. Crime almost always stems from poverty, and when a particular group suffers from poverty more than other groups, we have to ask why. Do they suffer from discrimination more than other groups? e.g. would a very qualified immigrant have a hard time getting a job because natives are favored? What is the overall experience of immigrants when they try to assimilate? Are they treated well, merely tolerated? How often do they have to deal with verbal abuse and even violence because of their race/culture/religion? What effect do these things have on the community as a whole? And what can be done to mitigate this problem aside from nationalist solutions?
The answer to all of that is that we're screwed.
But you hit the nail there. Money. Or rather the lack of it is a huge factor in what we're seeing.

And from what I've heard (pinch of salt here since I wasn't born and rose-tinted goggles) back in the 70s when Norway first started to take in people from other parts of the world (Middle-East/North Africa), it went fairly well.
Most of those who came here got themselves jobs and became productive members of society.

That's most likely because they were few. So both our society and bank account could deal with them without any big issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
You explained you'd prefer a moderate approach in government which is good but I'm just talking about the implication that Scandinavians are somehow less racist than white people in the US. And don't get me wrong; lots of Americans will make arguments similar to yours. They're typically conservative nationalists. I'm talking about the difference between American and European liberals, from my personal experience.
When I say we're less racist I mean that we never had slaves. So we never had that (fairly) nation-wide view that black people were inherently worse than white people.

Of course, we're human too so we hate/fear what's different, but our "racism" comes from our way of life being changed, not from years of using other people as property.

And not sure what you're thinking of with liberals because our liberals are the last stop before you hit nazi-town

Are you thinking our lefties? Because most of them have gone full retard and pretty much just balls of hypocrisy and stupidity now.

Anyway. I suck at getting my thoughts into words as usual, so for the record my opinion is thus:

- mixing different cultures is a stupid idea because we humans don't like things that are different(except for when we're on vacation of course).
- money is unfortunately finite, and it's objectively better to help people where they are and not move them across half the world (the price of helping 1 Syrian in Norway for example is the same as helping between 100 and 1000 Syrians in the areas around Syria).
- Germany and Sweden has pretty much committed national suicide. No way they're getting out of this without some sort of civil war/revolution.
- the rest of Europe is also most likely fucked because we'll end up electing "Trumps" and while they might avoid the actual bloodbaths, pretty much all of our privacy rights, freedom of speech, etc is gonna get axed.
- I place blame solely on the shitty politicians that have been running the show for the last decades since they've forgotten that they were supposed to serve the people(and I have no problem saying that they should serve their own people (IE citizens of their own country) first), and not the other way around.
Note: when I say citizen I mean that. Legal citizen. No matter your race/religion/sexual preference/favorite beer, if you're a citizen you get all the privileges that comes with.
- even if we somehow get through this mess, overpopulation and lack of food will break humanity anyway. Not forgetting climate change either, but pretty sure overpopulation will get us first.

Now. I think I've used my 2016 quota of long posts, so not really gonna bother discussing the whole racist/not-racist thing. But just remember that underestimating and marginalizing pissed off people is what got you Trump. So it might be worth at least trying to see what makes people angry before you write off people as simple racists.
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  #353  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez
Because you don't have the same history of racial diversity and subjugation, even liberal-minded Europeans are often ignorant of the sociology of race.
Well, I would consider their 2000 year hatred of Jews to be fairly racist. Europe's long history of pogroms that essentially culminated in the Holocaust is far worse than any racial issues we've had in the US.

Its only natural that now that Jews are basically considered "acceptable" that they've transferred that hatred of "those who are different" to the African/Middle Eastern muslim immigrant wave they're dealing with.
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  #354  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:20 AM
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Dahllia- May I present a brief challenge?

Tell me the substantive difference between A and B.

A:

B:
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  #355  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:30 AM
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Yes, that is why I thought it must be a joke.
We've officially entered the Tyson Zone where there is no story that I wouldn't believe if it was about Trump.


"Donald Trump announced he'll be flying to a private island to hunt homeless people during the holidays..."

Yup, that's believable

"Donald trump found dead in Ivanka's bedroom with severe anal lacerations and various sex toys scattered about..."

Yup, that's believable.

"Donald Trump has declared war on North Korea after a serious of hostile tweets by Kim Jung Un..."

Yup, that's believable.

"Donald Trump's presidency will be successful and conflict free..."

Well, I guess there is a line on what is truly ridiculous.
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  #356  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:37 AM
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Well, I would consider their 2000 year hatred of Jews to be fairly racist. Europe's long history of pogroms that essentially culminated in the Holocaust is far worse than any racial issues we've had in the US.
But that isn't racism, that is Judeo-Christian culture.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:40 AM
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I for one don't see what we're seeing in Sweden now, and to a lesser degree in Norway and Denmark as racism. I see it as Dav said. Anger/fear at seeing our way of life/country threatened and frustration at not being able to punish those responsible (the politicians). Which is pretty much the most human reaction that exists since we're still animals no matter how hard some people try to deny it.
Just throwing this out there: isn't "punish the politicians" by electing an incompetent nincompoop itself a matter of racial privilege? Making a statement by electing someone who promises to destroy the economic and governmental infrastructure that helps the poorest and most disenfranchised... that's something a lot of white Americans could afford to do because while they certainly have problems, they are still nowhere near bad enough that "destroy government as it exists" is not even an option they can consider.

You are correct that there are many flavors and aspects to racism and race, not just in America, but all over the world. But the answer to that problem is a deeper engagement with racism in all its forms, and education. Not a retreat to a position that calling people racist is what makes them racist.

Quote:
- money is unfortunately finite, and it's objectively better to help people where they are and not move them across half the world (the price of helping 1 Syrian in Norway for example is the same as helping between 100 and 1000 Syrians in the areas around Syria).
Objectively better for whom, though? The "areas around Syria" are far from stable, in large part due to the idiocy of colonial policies of European imperialism. The problems with refugee influxes in these neighboring states go beyond just the monetary. While things like schooling, healthcare and housing for refugees might be cheaper there, the cost for the refugees themselves in living in areas that may be historically likely to mistreat them is not entering your calculus.

Refugees get blamed all the time for wanting to not just want safety but economic opportunity as well. Which feels rich, coming from a continent that, for economic opportunity alone, crossed the seas and established colonies to leech wealth, often from the very areas from which refugees are now fleeing political turmoil.

This feels not all that different from the situation in America, where African Americans were torn from their homes and families, enslaved for generations, then faced systemic segregation, now face systemic mass incarceration, and are also expected to be crime-free, super-productive members of society.
  #358  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
I think I've used my 2016 quota of long posts, so not really gonna bother discussing the whole racist/not-racist thing.
Fair enough; there are just a few points I want to address directly.

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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
While I love Polandball, it's not where I go to get a balanced viewpoint
Yeah, but it's worth noting that the denizens of Polandball are probably pretty average young Europeans. On nerdy bookforums you tend to get the cream of the crop, so Polandball might be more representative than any of the other forums I attend.

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When I say we're less racist I mean that we never had slaves. So we never had that (fairly) nation-wide view that black people were inherently worse than white people.
I mean, just because there wasn't slavery doesn't mean that Europeans at that time didn't see black people as inferior. Several European countries were involved in the slave trade, but your economies were structured differently so it was less tempting to actually use slave labor. I've read enough 19th century continental European correspondence to be fairly certain that racism was just as bad there as in the US, despite slave labor being illegal.

Racism doesn't just appear out of nowhere when racial diversity increases; it just becomes more relevant and visible. And the lack of racial diversity makes for a populace that is fairly ignorant on the nature of racism itself.

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And not sure what you're thinking of with liberals because our liberals are the last stop before you hit nazi-town
It's a semantic difference; you're talking about economic liberals (which we call conservatives in the US), in the classical or neoliberal sense. I'm using the word more generally, in the "live and let live" sense that applies to all manner of topics including social issues. In economics it typically refers to laissez-faire.

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mixing different cultures is a stupid idea because we humans don't like things that are different(except for when we're on vacation of course).
That doesn't make mixing cultures inherently a bad idea.
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  #359  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:03 AM
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I mean, just because there wasn't slavery doesn't mean that Europeans at that time didn't see black people as inferior. Several European countries were involved in the slave trade, but your economies were structured differently so it was less tempting to actually use slave labor. I've read enough 19th century continental European correspondence to be fairly certain that racism was just as bad there as in the US, despite slave labor being illega
To be fair, can we really say that Serfdom wasn't a form of slavery and that existed in Europe (Russia at least) until the late 19th century. And Europe has had a far more stratified class structure when compared to the United States which is, in itself, essentially the same thing.

"Oh, you're not from a blue blood family that can trace its lineage back 500 years? Go fuck yourself, peasant"

There's a reason that communism and socialism did far better in Europe than the US during the early 20th century...there was far more there to be pissed off about. Sure, we had the so-called Guilded Age and Robber Barons but that was basically par for the course or even pretty enlightened compared to our European cousins of the same era when it comes to class and income divides.
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  #360  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:11 AM
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To be fair, can we really say that Serfdom wasn't a form of slavery and that existed in Europe (Russia at least) until the late 19th century.
I thought about bringing that up but since it was mostly just Russia I decided not to. Though, remnants of feudalism still existed in much of Europe in the 19th century and that's part of why slave labor wasn't very tempting. Peasant labor was cheap enough.
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