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  #361  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Dahllia- May I present a brief challenge?

Tell me the substantive difference between A and B.

A:

B:
Well. A came into being because the Swedish politicians decided to destroy Sweden.

And B I assume started because some idiot thinks that black people are inferior to white people.

Now, the end result might be similar, but how we get there is also important.

I can say it this way. (Ignoring the whole bit about natives). White man brought black people to America because they (read: most people) wanted to (use them as slaves).
The politcal elite and the far left are bringing immigrants to Sweden against the wishes of most people. And even giving them stuff that ethic Swedes aren't getting.

At least to me "racism" is a more understandable reaction in the last example than the first.
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  #362  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Refugees get blamed all the time for wanting to not just want safety but economic opportunity as well. Which feels rich, coming from a continent that, for economic opportunity alone, crossed the seas and established colonies to leech wealth, often from the very areas from which refugees are now fleeing political turmoil.
Sins of the father and all that.
Personally I never colonized or enslaved anyone. Neither did my country.
So I don't really feel all that responsible for fixing the mess.

And can you honestly say that bringing 1 Syrian to Norway to give him/her a Norwegian standard of living is better than helping hundreds of them not get shot/starve to death in Syria? Because that's pretty harsh
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  #363  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:53 AM
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They both exist because the people who endorse those positions believe that the government is betraying the "real" people (Real Americans(TM), Real Swedes(TM)) and destroying the nation by allowing those nasty foreigners to take what is owed to the good white people by virtue of being good white people.

They both are premised in ethnic identity, and are inextricably bound to the exclusion and marginalization of those who are not sufficiently worth- IE not white.

They are both going to the same place and they both get there by the exact same routes.
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  #364  
Old 12-14-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yeah, but it's worth noting that the denizens of Polandball are probably pretty average young Europeans. On nerdy bookforums you tend to get the cream of the crop, so Polandball might be more representative than any of the other forums I attend.
Maybe. But remember that (I'm assuming) those on the Polandball forums are at least somewhat interested in politics.
Most people cba thinking about it for more than five minutes after reading some scaremonger article.
Or when they jack up the price of alcohol and cigarettes.
So while they're probably more representative, I wouldn't call them representative.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
That doesn't make mixing cultures inherently a bad idea.
It does since it never works out

At least not when it's forced on people.
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  #365  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:05 AM
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I thought about bringing that up but since it was mostly just Russia I decided not to. Though, remnants of feudalism still existed in much of Europe in the 19th century and that's part of why slave labor wasn't very tempting. Peasant labor was cheap enough.
Yup, even in England during the Edwardian age, you could get a good Butler for like $5-6K in Today's money and other servants were significantly cheaper than that. How many Americans would have domestic help these days if that sort of compensation rate was still standard? I know I could easily afford a Butler/Valet and a couple of maids, a housekeeper, etc at that level of income and I'm not exactly super rich. By most calculators, I'd be considered upper middle class but I would consider myself fairly poor given the vast gulf between the 1% and the rest of us peons.
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Last edited by Davian93; 12-14-2016 at 10:07 AM.
  #366  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
They both exist because the people who endorse those positions believe that the government is betraying the "real" people (Real Americans(TM), Real Swedes(TM)) and destroying the nation by allowing those nasty foreigners to take what is owed to the good white people by virtue of being good white people.

They both are premised in ethnic identity, and are inextricably bound to the exclusion and marginalization of those who are not sufficiently worth- IE not white.

They are both going to the same place and they both get there by the exact same routes.
So. Not sure if you got a house or not.
But lets imagine you got a nice little house where you live with your family.

Then Trump comes along and says: "Hey SP, we've decided that this fella from the other side of the planet should get your top floor. Hope that's okay."

Then the fella proceeds to trash your entire top floor, comes down to raid your fridge. Makes some moves on your wife.

I guess you would just go: "Poor guy. He's been through a lot. Better let him do his thing".
Right?

Because take that example and magnify it to encompass whole districts and you got what's happening in Sweden now.
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  #367  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Just throwing this out there: isn't "punish the politicians" by electing an incompetent nincompoop itself a matter of racial privilege?
It may be news to you, but stupidity does not always make sense. Sometimes (often, actually), stupidity is just stupid.

The ones (thousands, millions, whatever) voting for racist populist nincompoops could do what they want simply by voting for politicians that do make sense; politicians who would work to improve the situation of the voters. But selecting such politicians is a lot of work and it requires actually paying attention to actual facts, so many voters don't bother making the attempt. It is laziness which is driving the stupidity that result in a victory for racism.
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  #368  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post

And can you honestly say that bringing 1 Syrian to Norway to give him/her a Norwegian standard of living is better than helping hundreds of them not get shot/starve to death in Syria? Because that's pretty harsh
Accomplishing the former is far easier than the latter, not to mention far cheaper, since stabilizing Syria in a way that would allow the return of the refugees would require war against likely both Assad and Putin, and many decades of military presence in Syria to effectively run the country for them to hold it together. Unfortunately, Accepting the refugees has, to a far lesser extent, destabilized Europe, and perhaps killed the EU.

Part of the reason we have all had to hold our noses on Erdogan is out of fear that he will even further open the floodgates. The refugee crisis has created economic instability, but let's not feign innocence, if these refugees were fleeing a revolution in France, there would be far less fear and discomfort in absorbing them. The problem is that Muslims, and that their culture is so different, especially regarding how it views and treats women, compared to the West. This isn't just a numbers problem. It also has a clear racial component.
  #369  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:19 AM
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The refugee crisis has created economic instability, but let's not feign innocence, if these refugees were fleeing a revolution in France, there would be far less fear and discomfort in absorbing them. The problem is that Muslims, and that their culture is so different, especially regarding how it views and treats women, compared to the West. This isn't just a numbers problem. It also has a clear racial component.
Exactly.
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  #370  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Accomplishing the former is far easier than the latter, not to mention far cheaper
No. Not at all.
Don't think you understand how expensive Norway is.
And integration is really fucking hard as soon as the numbers grow slightly too big you get ghettoes and conflict.
There's also the lack of jobs. Lack of places to live.

Refugee camps in the neighboring countries is pretty mcuh the most effective way of helping.

Not sticking our oil-grubbing hands into other countries just to mess about would also be an idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Part of the reason we have all had to hold our noses on Erdogan is out of fear that he will even further open the floodgates. The refugee crisis has created economic instability, but let's not feign innocence, if these refugees were fleeing a revolution in France, there would be far less fear and discomfort in absorbing them. The problem is that Muslims, and that their culture is so different, especially regarding how it views and treats women, compared to the West. This isn't just a numbers problem. It also has a clear racial component.
Hence, why I said mixing cultures is stupid and helping them where they are is a much better idea.
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  #371  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Sins of the father and all that.
Personally I never colonized or enslaved anyone. Neither did my country.
So I don't really feel all that responsible for fixing the mess.
Sweden may be far from the worst offender here, but it did indeed participate in the slave trade, and it did indeed have (small) colonies. More, it traded extensively with countries that colonized and enslaved a lot, and that was a huge contributor to its current economic strength.

And saying "I didn't colonize anyone" is hardly a defense when you do directly benefit from the past imperialism.

Its like a white guy in America saying "I'm not personally racist". Racism isn't about personal racism alone. It is a system.

"Sins of the father" is not really representative of the issue. Put another way: neither colonialism nor slavery ended with actual restitution. They contribute directly and materially to some of the worst humanitarian crises the world faces today. They were crimes with no real punishment, and worse, no reparation. You cannot write that off as "sins of the father".

Let me make an analogy: assume your actual father stole billions from poor farmers, then left it to you. Today, they are struggling and come to you demanding that their money be given back to them. Would you claim that since you personally did nothing wrong, you are not responsible to those farmers, even as you live in a mansion built out of those billions?

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And can you honestly say that bringing 1 Syrian to Norway to give him/her a Norwegian standard of living is better than helping hundreds of them not get shot/starve to death in Syria? Because that's pretty harsh
No, but you're the one who tried to make this an either or thing. I'm saying the response to the refugee crisis cannot be "take one or the other". Of course you prioritize saving the lives of those on the ground. But that doesn't mean you don't allow some to come live and work in your country either. Especially since they will be the ones to keep up political pressure to keep sending aid back, and will themselves be contributing to that aid if possible, since they have real stake in helping those left behind.
  #372  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:29 AM
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Unhappiness causes anger. When anger is given a scapegoat it becomes hate. Whether or not this is racism depends on the scapegoat.

Poverty is a very common source of unhappiness, but not the only one.
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  #373  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It may be news to you, but stupidity does not always make sense. Sometimes (often, actually), stupidity is just stupid.

The ones (thousands, millions, whatever) voting for racist populist nincompoops could do what they want simply by voting for politicians that do make sense; politicians who would work to improve the situation of the voters. But selecting such politicians is a lot of work and it requires actually paying attention to actual facts, so many voters don't bother making the attempt. It is laziness which is driving the stupidity that result in a victory for racism.
If your argument is that a lot of racism stems from stupidity, you're right. Doesn't change my point that its still racist though.
  #374  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Sweden may be far from the worst offender here, but it did indeed participate in the slave trade, and it did indeed have (small) colonies. More, it traded extensively with countries that colonized and enslaved a lot, and that was a huge contributor to its current economic strength.
DahL is Norwegian.
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  #375  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
So. Not sure if you got a house or not.
But lets imagine you got a nice little house where you live with your family.
But let us add that to build that house, your government stole from people across the world, and traded with those who did so to an even greater magnitude.

Quote:
Then Trump comes along and says: "Hey SP, we've decided that this fella from the other side of the planet should get your top floor. Hope that's okay."

Then the fella proceeds to trash your entire top floor, comes down to raid your fridge. Makes some moves on your wife.
So what is the chance of this? Why is the assumption that every single person who comes as a refugee will be a criminal?

Quote:
I guess you would just go: "Poor guy. He's been through a lot. Better let him do his thing".
Right?
I think I would acknowledge the fact that my house wasn't just the product of my work, and offer to help people across the world before it is foisted on me by Trump (a weird placeholder name for this hypothetical, by the way).

Quote:
Because take that example and magnify it to encompass whole districts and you got what's happening in Sweden now.
So wait... refugees in Sweden are causing massive property damage and are making the moves on Swedish wives?
  #376  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
DahL is Norwegian.
My bad in assuming otherwise, but I was making the point about Sweden because Sweden and their reaction to the refugee crisis is what we were discussing.
  #377  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Let me make an analogy: assume your actual father stole billions from poor farmers, then left it to you. Today, they are struggling and come to you demanding that their money be given back to them. Would you claim that since you personally did nothing wrong, you are not responsible to those farmers, even as you live in a mansion built out of those billions?
Personally I would have given them as much money as I could to rebuild their farms and help them get back on their feet.

I would not however invite all of them to stay in my mansion for as long as they'd like and let them do whatever they wanted. Because that would be stupid.

And tbh Norway owes way more to the dinosaurs (oil) than to European exploitation.
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  #378  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Personally I would have given them as much money as I could to rebuild their farms and help them get back on their feet.
That didn't happen here, though. Let's say a massive fire is raging through their villages and farms. They won't find sanctuary in your mansion.

Quote:
And tbh Norway owes way more to the dinosaurs (oil) than to European exploitation.
And where do you think the money to fund oil exploration came from?

Frankly, any story of current European economic success that ignores the role of imperial rule is plain wrong.

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  #379  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:50 AM
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My bad in assuming otherwise, but I was making the point about Sweden because Sweden and their reaction to the refugee crisis is what we were discussing.
I know. Just pointing out that when DahL doesn't feel responsible for fixing the slavery aftermath, because his country didn't contribute to the problem, it's a pretty solid argument as his country wasn't independent at the time.
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  #380  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
So. Not sure if you got a house or not.
But lets imagine you got a nice little house where you live with your family.

Then Trump comes along and says: "Hey SP, we've decided that this fella from the other side of the planet should get your top floor. Hope that's okay."

Then the fella proceeds to trash your entire top floor, comes down to raid your fridge. Makes some moves on your wife.

I guess you would just go: "Poor guy. He's been through a lot. Better let him do his thing".
Right?

Because take that example and magnify it to encompass whole districts and you got what's happening in Sweden now.
So your argument for not being a racist as bad as we have in America is that foreigners are coming where you are, trashing what you've built, taking your jobs and your welfare simultaneously, and having sexual relations with your white women?

You think this is somehow a novel argument? lawd, I had no idea the degree of naivete on racial issues I'd be encountering here.
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