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  #381  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
And where do you think the money to fund oil exploration came from?
Oh it was dreamed up. That's where all money comes from. People dream it up.
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  #382  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
But let us add that to build that house, your government stole from people across the world, and traded with those who did so to an even greater magnitude.
Well. I think both Norway and Sweden has made up for that over the years. This is 2015, but I'm pretty sure most of the earlier years will look the same:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...income_in_2015

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
So what is the chance of this? Why is the assumption that every single person who comes as a refugee will be a criminal?
Far from all of them are criminals. But quite a few are. And even the ones who aren't criminals end up as a net loss for the country since there aren't any jobs.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I think I would acknowledge the fact that my house wasn't just the product of my work, and offer to help people across the world before it is foisted on me by Trump (a weird placeholder name for this hypothetical, by the way).
Well. It's too late for that. You're stuck with them now. And yeah. Trump was a bad example, but I don't think you have any politicians of the caliber I was looking for

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
So wait... refugees in Sweden are causing massive property damage and are making the moves on Swedish wives?
Well. Yes:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-SUE-REID.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...violence-crime

Or just take a look at any Swedish paper from after the censoring fell apart.
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  #383  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
So your argument for not being a racist as bad as we have in America is that foreigners are coming where you are, trashing what you've built, taking your jobs and your welfare simultaneously, and having sexual relations with your white women?

You think this is somehow a novel argument? lawd, I had no idea the degree of naivete on racial issues I'd be encountering here.


More seriously, I keep running into these moments in my daily conversation. Which is why I find it ludicrous when people blame this on "liberal elitism". The problem isn't that "liberals" talk too much about racism and sexism, and classism. Its that they don't talk about it enough.
  #384  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:10 AM
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So your argument for not being a racist as bad as we have in America is that foreigners are coming where you are, trashing what you've built, taking your jobs and your welfare simultaneously, and having sexual relations with your white women?

You think this is somehow a novel argument? lawd, I had no idea the degree of naivete on racial issues I'd be encountering here.
Holy fuck you're hung up in skin color.
Jesus.

And I'm saying that understanding why people are turning racist all over Europe now should be pretty easy for anyone not completely blinded white man's guilt.

But live in your little bubble. You're probably happier than me who actually see the problems and have no chance to do anything about it anyway.

At least I'll get to say "told you so", when it all goes to hell
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  #385  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post


More seriously, I keep running into these moments in my daily conversation. Which is why I find it ludicrous when people blame this on "liberal elitism". The problem isn't that "liberals" talk too much about racism and sexism, and classism. Its that they don't talk about it enough.
Nah. The problem is never that people don't talk. It's usually that people don't think. Almost always it's that people think talking is the same as thinking and think that doing that is proof of doing the other.
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  #386  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post


More seriously, I keep running into these moments in my daily conversation. Which is why I find it ludicrous when people blame this on "liberal elitism". The problem isn't that "liberals" talk too much about racism and sexism, and classism. Its that they don't talk about it enough.
Yeah. Much better to talk about how racist people are than actually focus on the underlying issues.
Sounds brilliant.
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  #387  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Holy fuck you're hung up in skin color.
Jesus.
Do you ever think of yourself as white DahL? Just out of curiosity (and assuming that you actually are white which while likely I can't actually prove).
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  #388  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:16 AM
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Well. I think both Norway and Sweden has made up for that over the years. This is 2015, but I'm pretty sure most of the earlier years will look the same:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...income_in_2015
I'm glad Sweden and Norway give as much as they do, but no, it hasn't been "made up for". Giving up to 1.4% of your GDP cannot possibly match the economic devastation that was caused. Now, Sweden and Norway may individually not have caused as much damage, but tally up the benefits from trading with countries like England and France when they were colonial powers and I think you'll find that it was a net gain for these countries.

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Far from all of them are criminals. But quite a few are. And even the ones who aren't criminals end up as a net loss for the country since there aren't any jobs.
Why aren't there jobs for them, though?

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Well. It's too late for that. You're stuck with them now. And yeah. Trump was a bad example, but I don't think you have any politicians of the caliber I was looking for
It isn't too late, though. You think the Syrian refugee crisis is the last one the world will ever see? I've seen absolutely no Western nation say "let us learn from Syria, and try prevent this from occurring again."

Quote:
Well. Yes:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-SUE-REID.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...violence-crime

Or just take a look at any Swedish paper from after the censoring fell apart.
Except not a one of these grapples with why there are increases in crime, or even whether there is any causative links between increased immigration and increased crime.

You can, for instance, have badly managed increased immigration that causes increased crime. Then the target for blame should be bad management, not immigration itself...
  #389  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:16 AM
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Maybe Trump can convince Netanyahu to let a couple of million Syrian refugees into Israel. After all, Israel is a neighbouring (and occupying) country, so it qualifies as being "in the same region".
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  #390  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:22 AM
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Do you ever think of yourself as white DahL? Just out of curiosity (and assuming that you actually are white which while likely I can't actually prove).
I am white yeah.

And I will admit I'm fairly happy being a white male in Norway.

But I wouldn't describe myself as a white male no. I would say I'm a Norwegian first and foremost.

Because that's the only worthwhile way to separate Us and Them IMO.
Citizen or not.
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  #391  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Yeah. Much better to talk about how racist people are than actually focus on the underlying issues.
Sounds brilliant.
No, I don't think people need to be talking about how "racist people are". I think they need to talk about systemic racism, and how it influences people's decisions. I think they need to talk about how racist stereotypes and racialized stories of "stolen" welfare, and increased crime are used to destroy the welfare state and erase personal protections meant to stem police overreach. They need to talk about how these things end up harming everyone.

What do you think is the alternative? Your deranged position that refugees/African Americans are actually to be blamed for the things they're scapegoated for?
  #392  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:30 AM
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Why aren't there jobs for them, though?
Because jobs don't magically appear just when you want them to. They do auto-magically disappear all the time now though. (that was a pun about automation and how it's removing jobs at an alarming rate).

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Except not a one of these grapples with why there are increases in crime, or even whether there is any causative links between increased immigration and increased crime.

You can, for instance, have badly managed increased immigration that causes increased crime. Then the target for blame should be bad management, not immigration itself...
My point is that it's impossible to integrate that many people at once. It's just not going to happen.

So going immigration->bad integration->pile of shit is moot since there's no scenario, anywhere at any time where it's been immigration->good integration->???->profit.

For simplicity's sake it's immigration->pile of shit.

Now this all goes for the current situation. Integrating a small number of people is possible with the right systems in place, but as of now the systems are shit and there's too many immigrants.
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  #393  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:34 AM
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What do you think is the alternative? Your deranged position that refugees/African Americans are actually to be blamed for the things they're scapegoated for?
No. Clearly sweeping everything under the rug and calling everyone a deranged racist is the solution.

Just look at Sweden. Never been better. No crime, no poverty, no problems.
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  #394  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:37 AM
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Holy fuck you're hung up in skin color.
Jesus.

And I'm saying that understanding why people are turning racist all over Europe now should be pretty easy for anyone not completely blinded white man's guilt.

But live in your little bubble. You're probably happier than me who actually see the problems and have no chance to do anything about it anyway.

At least I'll get to say "told you so", when it all goes to hell
You're hung up on skin color, and just refuse to admit that. Your national identity is your ethnic identity and both are bound inextricably to your racial identity.

It is easy to understand why people are turning racist all over Europe. You're just pretty obstinate in denying the underlying reasons aren't actually related to the minorities- they're just a very convenient target for an otherwise nebulous existential angst about a shrinking world.

But understanding racism isn't a goal. Racism isn't something to be understood beyond the fact that it's a moral failure on a basic human level. The real goal should be getting people to come to grips with the changing world without the need to scapegoat and demonize people unlike them struggling with the exact same changing world.
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  #395  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:44 AM
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The real goal should be getting people to come to grips with the changing world without the need to scapegoat and demonize people unlike them struggling with the exact same changing world.
Yeah. And I totally heard that screaming racist as loud as you can everytime someone mentions a problem is the best way to do that.

So good going I guess. We got Trump, we got Brexit. Who's next? Le Pen? An almost literal Hitler in Germany?
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  #396  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:48 AM
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I am white yeah.

And I will admit I'm fairly happy being a white male in Norway.

But I wouldn't describe myself as a white male no. I would say I'm a Norwegian first and foremost.

Because that's the only worthwhile way to separate Us and Them IMO.
Citizen or not.
Pretty much the point I'm making for fionwe's and SP's benefit. Europeans in general define themselves by nationality rather than skin colour.

I'm not sure if the term is "racist" in this type of discrimination and I'm not saying it is somehow better. What I am saying that it has different dynamics and you have to shift mental gears to understand it.

Now people of darker skin colour are not a common sight even in my part of Finland, but when I see one the thoughts that come to my mind are along these lines: "Why is the skin on their palms so much lighter? Is it all of them or just the ones I've seen? Or have I seen some with palms the same colour as the rest of their skin, but didn't notice? I wonder if wondering about this proves that I'm not even a bit racist. Hey that girl who just walked past has a nice ass." Granted seeing the nice ass isn't always a part of the process, but I'm lucky enough to have cause for that thought fairly often.
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  #397  
Old 12-14-2016, 11:57 AM
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Pretty much the point I'm making for fionwe's and SP's benefit. Europeans in general define themselves by nationality rather than skin colour.

I'm not sure if the term is "racist" in this type of discrimination and I'm not saying it is somehow better. What I am saying that it has different dynamics and you have to shift mental gears to understand it.
True. Not sure what to call it either. And IMO thinking of everyone outside your family, village, state, country as "the other" is the only thing that keeps us going as humans. Borders aren't just lines on a map.
They also affect economy, culture, laws, norms, etc. And that's important because the whole "one world, one people" dream is completely contrary to every instinct we have. And that's why it will never happen (Star Trek isn't a documentary).

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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Now people of darker skin colour are not a common sight even in my part of Finland, but when I see one the thoughts that come to my mind are along these lines: "Why is the skin on their palms so much lighter? Is it all of them or just the ones I've seen? Or have I seen some with palms the same colour as the rest of their skin, but didn't notice? I wonder if wondering about this proves that I'm not even a bit racist. Hey that girl who just walked past has a nice ass." Granted seeing the nice ass isn't always a part of the process, but I'm lucky enough to have cause for that thought fairly often.
That last part sounds a bit sexist to me. Might wanna reconsider it
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  #398  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:01 PM
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No. Clearly sweeping everything under the rug and calling everyone a deranged racist is the solution.
Exactly where have I done that? Please point to one place where I called you, or anyone in this thread, a racist.

I was, in fact, perfectly polite, till the point where you thought it was okay to get mocking about my position that a larger conversation on race is needed, which wasn't directed at you, but in reference to daily conversations I have here, in America.

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Just look at Sweden. Never been better. No crime, no poverty, no problems.


Of course there are problems. My point is that those problems come from assuming that it's all the immigrant's fault. Because that is precious political capital being wasted on a scapegoat. Immigration exposes preexisting flaws, and depending on the reaction, can cause an exacerbation.

But if you think sending all the immigrants back, or locking the gates will solve those problems, you're wrong.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
That last part sounds a bit sexist to me. Might wanna reconsider it
Hey I never judge an ass based on the person it's attached to. A guy can have a nice ass, but on the whole girls tend to have better ones. It could be the way they walk. A guy has to make room for his balls when he walks. It could be that this is a poor way to display your ass or it could actually be a cause of a poor ass. Or better asses could just be a part of female genetics. Or this difference in asses is not global and I'm just really lucky to live in a place where it applies.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I was, in fact, perfectly polite, till the point where you thought it was okay to get mocking about my position that a larger conversation on race is needed, which wasn't directed at you, but in reference to daily conversations I have here, in America.
Not that I take it very hard, but your triple grinning smiley to SPs comment that was clearly aimed at me could have confused me

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Of course there are problems. My point is that those problems come from assuming that it's all the immigrant's fault. Because that is precious political capital being wasted on a scapegoat. Immigration exposes preexisting flaws, and depending on the reaction, can cause an exacerbation.

But if you think sending all the immigrants back, or locking the gates will solve those problems, you're wrong.
So. In Countria, they have 10000 people and 9000 jobs, but enough money to let the 1000 without jobs live good lives.

Then you add 2000 Othercountrians and you get 500 new jobs to administer this.

Now you got 12000 people, 9500 jobs and not enough money to help the 2500 that don't have a job.

What you're saying is that this isn't a problem until the Countrians start saying that we should send the Othercountrians back?

That pointing out the lack of jobs and money is somehow the reason for the lack of jobs and money?
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