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  #401  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
So. In Countria, they have 10000 people and 9000 jobs, but enough money to let the 1000 without jobs live good lives.

Then you add 2000 Othercountrians and you get 500 new jobs to administer this.

Now you got 12000 people, 9500 jobs and not enough money to help the 2500 that don't have a job.

What you're saying is that this isn't a problem until the Countrians start saying that we should send the Othercountrians back?

That pointing out the lack of jobs and money is somehow the reason for the lack of jobs and money?
I think this is difficult to understand, for me at least, because in Canada this isn't an issue. We actually rely heavily on immigrants to keep our population from collapsing, and we have a lot of room (both physical and economical) to absorb high numbers refugees/immigrants into our country. I am not sure if the US is the same, but I suspect they are not as affected with extremely finite space and resources like some EU countries are faced with.

When we opened our country to take in 25,000 refugees one year ago, we had trouble finding people to come, because most of them dream of going home one day- and coming all the way to Canada kind of dashes that dream. It just meant security-checking a lot more individuals than the government initially planned for, because most of the group of refugees that already had security clearance respectfully declined.

ETA: We also have a very cool private-sponsor Program that allows Canadians to raise money and bring families over with the governments oversight and blessing, but without the government's money. The number of families that were privately sponsored was staggering, showing that we also have a lot of room in our heart for the refugees as well.
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Last edited by Brita; 12-14-2016 at 12:26 PM.
  #402  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Yeah. And I totally heard that screaming racist as loud as you can everytime someone mentions a problem is the best way to do that.

So good going I guess. We got Trump, we got Brexit. Who's next? Le Pen? An almost literal Hitler in Germany?
It's crazy, I know. One can't attribute all of society's ailments to an ethnic minority these days without someone accusing them of racism. What's this world coming to?
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  #403  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:31 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Not that I take it very hard, but your triple grinning smiley to SPs comment that was clearly aimed at me could have confused me
To the point that it made you think I was calling you, and everyone else, a racist?



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So. In Countria, they have 10000 people and 9000 jobs, but enough money to let the 1000 without jobs live good lives.

Then you add 2000 Othercountrians and you get 500 new jobs to administer this.

Now you got 12000 people, 9500 jobs and not enough money to help the 2500 that don't have a job.

What you're saying is that this isn't a problem until the Countrians start saying that we should send the Othercountrians back?

That pointing out the lack of jobs and money is somehow the reason for the lack of jobs and money?
The problem with this scenario is that it assumes those initial 9000 jobs are somehow static.

There are 9000 jobs already filled, and we have an influx of 2000 people. Creating new jobs is hard, as you said, but what you would want is that those 2000 will be allowed to compete for those same 9000 jobs, and be allowed to get them based on merit alone. If you do, then you have increased productivity, which partially offsets the costs of hosting new non earning members of your country, while also allowing for more job and wealth creation .

Obviously, things are never this ideal, but a big part of that is because jobs aren't given out based on merit alone.

At the same time, you also want to use the presence of refugees to actually push for a solution back where they came from. That also will contribute to reducing the drain on resources that refugees are.

I'm not going to pretend there's a magic solution that will make taking in refugees an immediate net gain. There isn't. But how much they harm your economy and society isn't just a function of their presence. Its a function of underlying issues.

As for your post upthread of where refugee arrival has led to profit? Funnily enough, the USA counts as a stellar example, I think.
  #404  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
No. Not at all.
Don't think you understand how expensive Norway is.
And integration is really fucking hard as soon as the numbers grow slightly too big you get ghettoes and conflict.
There's also the lack of jobs. Lack of places to live.

Refugee camps in the neighboring countries is pretty mcuh the most effective way of helping.
There are already millions of refugees in camps in Turkey and Lebanon, some of which the West helps finance, but that wasn't what I was referring to. Refugee camps are not a permanent solution. Either they can stay in Europe permanently, and slowly be integrated into European society (some of whom never will be well integrated, which will cause increased racial tension, enclaves of poverty (ghettoes), and increased risk of terrorism), or we can try to restabilize Syria so that they can return home. That latter was the option that I was referring to as far more difficult, and far more expensive. War against Assad and Putin may be the cheaper option for Norway, Sweden, and Germany, after all, let's be blunt, if there is war, it will be us footing the bill, it will be us paying for both it and the reconstruction of a new govt in Syria. But regardless of who pays for it, and the fallout in terms of international animosity from our (or NATO's involvement), that cost would be exponentially greater than the cost that Norway is paying for welfare and integration programs for the refugees that it takes in.

Even with the dems in power we were not willing to countenance a real war in Syria. A different Republican might have, but Trump is clearly not going to confront Putin in Syria or anywhere else - the Baltic states and Ukraine should all be quite nervous about him potentially abandoning them to a Russian Reconquista. And as for Erdogan, he is clearly not willing to take back any of these refugees that he has intentionally pushed into Europe so as to make some of them your problem rather than his. You have already bribed him into keeping what few (millions) that he has. He is far more likely to reopen those floodgates than to welcome more of them back from Europe into Turkey.

It is a bad situation, but unfortunately these refugees have nowhere to go, and seemingly very few are willing to take actual pity on them if it means in any way inconveniencing themselves.
  #405  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
It's crazy, I know. One can't attribute all of society's ailments to an ethnic minority these days without someone accusing them of racism. What's this world coming to?
So what's it coming to when a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out only gets you accusations of being a racist? And when the main motivation for people calling others "racist" is to prove that they themselves aren't racist, because that's the only way the problem affects their lives, other people seeing them as racists based on their opinion on the issue?
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  #406  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
So what's it coming to when a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out only gets you accusations of being a racist? And when the main motivation for people calling others "racist" is to prove that they themselves aren't racist, because that's the only way the problem affects their lives, other people seeing them as racists based on their opinion on the issue?
Did you hear me claim to not being racist? I'm an America. Racism is my country's original sin. My grandparents had grandparents that OWNED HUMAN BEINGS. I benefit from the structural racism inherent in my country on a daily basis. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't point it out here every opportunity that presents itself, or be silent about it when it blossoms in other areas.

But to your original point- there are two routes. You can either embrace the notion that their ethnic identity IS the problem and thus purging that ethnicity from your borders by any means necessary is the remedy, or you can decide that there may be underlying structural problems that are more difficult and painful to address but will ultimately benefit everyone in the long run if addressed.

One is easy, instinctual, tribal, and wrong.
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  #407  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
There are already millions of refugees in camps in Turkey and Lebanon, some of which the West helps finance, but that wasn't what I was referring to. Refugee camps are not a permanent solution. Either they can stay in Europe permanently, and slowly be integrated into European society (some of whom never will be well integrated, which will cause increased racial tension, enclaves of poverty (ghettoes), and increased risk of terrorism), or we can try to restabilize Syria so that they can return home. That latter was the option that I was referring to as far more difficult, and far more expensive. War against Assad and Putin may be the cheaper option for Norway, Sweden, and Germany, after all, let's be blunt, if there is war, it will be us footing the bill, it will be us paying for both it and the reconstruction of a new govt in Syria. But regardless of who pays for it, and the fallout in terms of international animosity from our (or NATO's involvement), that cost would be exponentially greater than the cost that Norway is paying for welfare and integration programs for the refugees that it takes in.

Even with the dems in power we were not willing to countenance a real war in Syria. A different Republican might have, but Trump is clearly not going to confront Putin in Syria or anywhere else - the Baltic states and Ukraine should all be quite nervous about him potentially abandoning them to a Russian Reconquista. And as for Erdogan, he is clearly not willing to take back any of these refugees that he has intentionally pushed into Europe so as to make some of them your problem rather than his. You have already bribed him into keeping what few (millions) that he has. He is far more likely to reopen those floodgates than to welcome more of them back from Europe into Turkey.

It is a bad situation, but unfortunately these refugees have nowhere to go, and seemingly very few are willing to take actual pity on them if it means in any way inconveniencing themselves.
Kimon you are working with the assumption that enough money can make anything happen. This isn't true even in the long run. In the short run the problems increase exponentially and they are lumped together under the lable "logistics". No matter what is paid by whom there are limits to what is possible. The refugees literally have nowhere to go.
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  #408  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:53 PM
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Did you hear me claim to not being racist? I'm an America. Racism is my country's original sin. My grandparents had grandparents that OWNED HUMAN BEINGS. I benefit from the structural racism inherent in my country on a daily basis. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't point it out here every opportunity that presents itself, or be silent about it when it blossoms in other areas.

But to your original point- there are two routes. You can either embrace the notion that their ethnic identity IS the problem and thus purging that ethnicity from your borders by any means necessary is the remedy, or you can decide that there may be underlying structural problems that are more difficult and painful to address but will ultimately benefit everyone in the long run if addressed.

One is easy, instinctual, tribal, and wrong.
Oh great you can see the two ends of a spectrum and count them. Now take a look at all the points in between. Hint: the points aren't defined by the question: "Is this racist?"
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  #409  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Oh great you can see the two ends of a spectrum and count them. Now take a look at all the points in between. Hint: the points aren't defined by the question: "Is this racist?"
History has shown us pretty convincingly that the points in between are only stops on the way to A or B. So decide right now which one you want to do and get to work.
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  #410  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
So what's it coming to when a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out only gets you accusations of being a racist?
Its coming to us maybe finally coming to our senses? If you think there's nothing racist about "a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out", then I don't know what to say. That minority probably also has the same height as a bunch of other people. Is that mentioned in the same way as his ethnicity? Or his hat size, maybe? Ever seen shoe size mentioned when people talk about crime statistics?

There's a reason why ethnicity is talked about, and others not. It serves as a nice shortcut scapegoat for politicians to point to so they can redirect attention from the actual issues. And when people buy into that and perpetuate the myth, how is this not an issue of racism?

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And when the main motivation for people calling others "racist" is to prove that they themselves aren't racist, because that's the only way the problem affects their lives, other people seeing them as racists based on their opinion on the issue?
Speaking at least for myself, I'd call that a rather bizarre assumption.

Studying in a mostly liberal college town in the Midwest has meant I don't face the worst sort of racism, but even that hasn't stopped me being asked to go back to Mexico, which is rather confusing since I've never seen the place, or having an old man come up to me, look at me, say "its the season of terror, eh", spit at my feet, and walk away.

Both these happened post-election, but it wasn't all perfect before either, and I'm a brown skinned Indian. I know of so many others who face far worse, both now and before the election.

If you are seriously of the belief that racism is an accusation only hurled by people who aren't affected by it, I'd have to say that's completely missing the forest for the trees.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 12-14-2016 at 01:11 PM.
  #411  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:07 PM
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History has shown us pretty convincingly that the points in between are only stops on the way to A or B. So decide right now which one you want to do and get to work.
History shows to the blind exactly what they want to see. Thinking that history shows everything that can be is an arrogance second only to thinking that you have seen all that there is to see. Get off your high horse and admit that there might be more aspects to a problem than the ones you've managed to notice.

Note that I did not imply you were racist in this post. Just that you are arrogant and shallow.
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  #412  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
History shows to the blind exactly what they want to see. Thinking that history shows everything that can be is an arrogance second only to thinking that you have seen all that there is to see. Get off your high horse and admit that there might be more aspects to a problem than the ones you've managed to notice.

Note that I did not imply you were racist in this post. Just that you are arrogant and shallow.
Hey! I am NOT shallow.
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  #413  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Speaking at least for myself, I'd call that a rather bizarre assumption.

Studying in a mostly liberal college town in the Midwest has meant I don't face the worst sort of racism, but even that hasn't stopped me being asked to go back to Mexico, which is rather confusing since I've never seen the place, or having an old man come up to me, look at me, say "its the season of terror, eh", spit at my feet, and walk away.

Both these happened post-election, but it wasn't all perfect before either, and I'm a brown skinned Indian. I know of so many others who face far worse, both now and before the election.

If you are seriously of the belief that racism is an accusation only hurled by people who aren't affected by it, I'd have to say that's completely missing the forest for the trees.
So you aren't white and can't be racist because only white people are racist?
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  #414  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:10 PM
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Hey! I am NOT shallow.
Yes you are.
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  #415  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:12 PM
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So you aren't white and can't be racist because only white people are racist?
Of course non-whites can be, and very often are, bigoted. But racism implies a superiority structure and the capacity, via social and cultural dominance, to enforce that superiority either explicitly or implicitly. Minorities, by their very definition, lack that.
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  #416  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:13 PM
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Yes you are.
Finns, like Germans, must be genetically predisposed to lack a sense of humor.
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  #417  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:15 PM
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So you aren't white and can't be racist because only white people are racist?
Nice shifting of the goalposts there, but please go and see the part of your comment I bolded. It was the part where you said that racism doesn't affect the lives of people who're discussing race and calling others racist. Do you want to claim I am unaffected by racism?
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:17 PM
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Oh great you can see the two ends of a spectrum and count them. Now take a look at all the points in between. Hint: the points aren't defined by the question: "Is this racist?"
Ok, can you bring up some point that is "in between"? I'm frankly at a loss...
  #419  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Finns, like Germans, must be genetically predisposed to lack a sense of humor.
And that there is a stereotype...
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:19 PM
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Nazbaque Nazbaque is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Finns, like Germans, must be genetically predisposed to lack a sense of humor.
Now whose the one with no sense of humour? The one who made a joke or the one who didn't notice the other was counter-joking?

Now stop replying so quickly! I'm trying to watch My Little Pony and you're distracting me!
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