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  #421  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:44 PM
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So, what I'm getting here is that both Americans and Europeans are racist assholes, some just admit to it better than others.

Canadians are good people though. Or so evil we've got a higher class of nefarious people and are up to much greater evils than racism. Like taxes, spreading horrible pop culture types to the rest of the world and a head of government that's pretty cool.
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  #422  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
So, what I'm getting here is that both Americans and Europeans are racist assholes, some just admit to it better than others.

Canadians are good people though. Or so evil we've got a higher class of nefarious people and are up to much greater evils than racism. Like taxes, spreading horrible pop culture types to the rest of the world and a head of government that's pretty cool.
Pretty much.

ETA: we certainly have our own wannabe Trumpians...Trumpsters...Trumpaloopas....whatever you want to call them. But fortunately they seem to be a significant minority.
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  #423  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Brita View Post
Pretty much.

ETA: we certainly have our own wannabe Trumpians...Trumpsters...Trumpaloopas....whatever you want to call them. But fortunately they seem to be a significant minority.
I prefer to use the term Trumperdicks...
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  #424  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Nice shifting of the goalposts there, but please go and see the part of your comment I bolded. It was the part where you said that racism doesn't affect the lives of people who're discussing race and calling others racist. Do you want to claim I am unaffected by racism?
Well if you think the problem of racism is only one world wide problem that affects everything everywhere and therefore you who are a target of someone's racism has a stake in other people far away being racist at some other people, then I'd say you're an idiot. Racism is several problems in several places and while they are similar enough to come under the same lable thinking that they are the same is exactly the kind of thinking that makes racists racist.

The only way Swedes' attitudes towards the economic problems they have with the refugees affects you is how other people judge you based on your opinion on the subject.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Ok, can you bring up some point that is "in between"? I'm frankly at a loss...
Point A: Let's be racist about it and invade Poland.

Point B: Fix the problem and show how sun shines from our asses accompanied by rainbows.

Point A-: Let's be racist and complain.

Point B+: Carefully study the problem and solve what can be solved assuming someone suplies the infinite funds and resources.

Point A--: The immigrants are the whole problem, but people of the same race have nothing to do with it.

Point B++: Do what can be done while begging our good neighbours for funds and resources.

Point A---: Our idiot leaders cause even more problems by allowing these foreighners in. It's our leaders' fault and the people who look like foreighners remind us of it.

Point B+++: Do what we can with what our economy allows while begging our good for nothing neighbours to make somekind of contribution to solving this problem.

Midway Point: We really pity you, but we have no more to give. It's nobody's fault, but as you are now: tired, scared, hungry and weak, you can't any time soon give much back to the system and we can't run this as any more of a charity than it already is. Some of you have really useful skills, but you don't know our language and some of your culture's ways aren't compatible with ours. Maybe some of your ways aren't as bad as we think and some of ours might be worse than we think, but we can't change our entire way of life just to make you more comfortable. A lot of your people are making a splendid effort, but we just can't afford to take more of you in. Not even if people call us racist. We. Just. Can't.
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  #425  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:14 PM
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I prefer to use the term Trumperdicks...
Ooooh- good one! Like Trumperdinks...
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  #426  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:18 PM
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Trumpkin.
Trumpster Fires.
Trumpeteers.
Trumpaloompa (slightly different that Brita's).

I prefer: "Those assholes". Not witty, but it gets the point across.
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  #427  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Kimon you are working with the assumption that enough money can make anything happen. This isn't true even in the long run. In the short run the problems increase exponentially and they are lumped together under the lable "logistics". No matter what is paid by whom there are limits to what is possible. The refugees literally have nowhere to go.
Yeah, which is exactly what I said.
  #428  
Old 12-14-2016, 03:22 PM
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Yeah, which is exactly what I said.
No, you implied that the characteristic of the taking in refugees solution is expense and it can be made to work by throwing money at it. You also said that the only other option is to subjugate Syria either by force of arms or by diplomacy backed by force of arms and you take the martyr tone of "we Americans have to pay for this mess" while conviniently leaving out that your actions as a nation were more than half the cause of this mess. And again you imply that money can make this work as well. Do you seriously not understand that money by itself is not a resource?
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  #429  
Old 12-14-2016, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Well if you think the problem of racism is only one world wide problem that affects everything everywhere and therefore you who are a target of someone's racism has a stake in other people far away being racist at some other people, then I'd say you're an idiot. Racism is several problems in several places and while they are similar enough to come under the same lable thinking that they are the same is exactly the kind of thinking that makes racists racist.
Yet another goalpost shift here, I see. From racism to local vs. non-local racism. This, once again, is not what you said at first, and not what I responded to.

Yes, there are many local causes for racism. Using the word racisms is entirely appropriate. Yes, the exact cause of racism in the US isn't the same as the exact cause of racism in Sweden. Yes, as we get into discussing these various issues, those facts have to be kept in mind.

But you will notice that no one said the problems are exactly the same. Only that while the routes to it are different, and the exact nature of it is different, they're similar enough to be called racism, whether in Sweden or the USA. A position you seem to agree with, right here.

In a similar vein to racism being several problems in several places, the exact cause of murder are not the same everywhere. Nor of GDP growth. Or increased tourism.

I don't think anyone would argue, though, that calling two disparate murders murder is what made the murderer commit murder. Or that GDP growth in two countries rose simply because both were called the same thing.

I really don't know what to say if someone says a random Swede or Finn becomes a racist because he saw someone in the US call his resentment of immigrants racist. Seems like a convenient way distract from the actual issue, but as an actual argument...

Quote:
The only way Swedes' attitudes towards the economic problems they have with the refugees affects you is how other people judge you based on your opinion on the subject.
By this yardstick, why are you in a thread that, at least when it began, was about America, the victory of Trump, and the horror that engenders in people? Why don't you spend your time in a thread about Finland filled with people from Finland?

Quote:
Point A: Let's be racist about it and invade Poland.

Point B: Fix the problem and show how sun shines from our asses accompanied by rainbows.
Yeah these aren't the ends of the spectrum the OP mentioned. HE specifically said:

Quote:
You can either embrace the notion that their ethnic identity IS the problem and thus purging that ethnicity from your borders by any means necessary is the remedy, or you can decide that there may be underlying structural problems that are more difficult and painful to address but will ultimately benefit everyone in the long run if addressed.
Maybe dwell on what was written a little before replying, instead of feeling so afraid that someone thinks you're racist that you end up with an incoherent argument?

Last edited by fionwe1987; 12-14-2016 at 03:43 PM.
  #430  
Old 12-14-2016, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
No, you implied that the characteristic of the taking in refugees solution is expense and it can be made to work by throwing money at it. You also said that the only other option is to subjugate Syria either by force of arms or by diplomacy backed by force of arms and you take the martyr tone of "we Americans have to pay for this mess" while conviniently leaving out that your actions as a nation were more than half the cause of this mess. And again you imply that money can make this work as well. Do you seriously not understand that money by itself is not a resource?
Read my post again. Not sure if you just don't understand, or if you just feel the need to constantly find an argument where there is none. Either way I see no point in continuing to engage you in this nonsense.
  #431  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:20 PM
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I'm confused as to whether our Scandinavian friends here are expressing disappointment that we elected a xenophobic ethnonationalist in Trump, or disappointment that they couldn't vote for him.
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  #432  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:45 PM
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Oh hey. It looks as though Michael Flynn shared secrets with unauthorized persons. In Pakistan.

Lock Him Up!
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  #433  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Yet another goalpost shift here, I see. From racism to local vs. non-local racism. This, once again, is not what you said at first, and not what I responded to.
Well you were the one who brought up your own problems with racists which had nothing to do with a discussion about Sweden.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Yes, there are many local causes for racism. Using the word racisms is entirely appropriate. Yes, the exact cause of racism in the US isn't the same as the exact cause of racism in Sweden. Yes, as we get into discussing these various issues, those facts have to be kept in mind.

But you will notice that no one said the problems are exactly the same. Only that while the routes to it are different, and the exact nature of it is different, they're similar enough to be called racism, whether in Sweden or the USA. A position you seem to agree with, right here.
So why did you bring up your problems with racists when they weren't the racists (which Sweden no doubt has) in question.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
In a similar vein to racism being several problems in several places, the exact cause of murder are not the same everywhere. Nor of GDP growth. Or increased tourism.

I don't think anyone would argue, though, that calling two disparate murders murder is what made the murderer commit murder. Or that GDP growth in two countries rose simply because both were called the same thing.
Now we clearly aren't talking the same language anymore. You claim that Swedish racism directly affects your life. I tell you that it's a different racism problem. And you bring up phenomena which are not in their dynamics similar with racism or even each other.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I really don't know what to say if someone says a random Swede or Finn becomes a racist because he saw someone in the US call his resentment of immigrants racist. Seems like a convenient way distract from the actual issue, but as an actual argument...
Come again?

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
By this yardstick, why are you in a thread that, at least when it began, was about America, the victory of Trump, and the horror that engenders in people? Why don't you spend your time in a thread about Finland filled with people from Finland?
Well you can see my reasoning in my posts. I am in this discussion to discuss. Among other things discussing a sentiment you posted. I really can't see what other motive there can be for pointing and yelling "racist!" other than attempting to prove yourself a non-racist. Not when the problem in question has a lot more to it than racism and especially when certain aspects are called racist when they aren't. It doesn't help to solve it and in fact gets in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Yeah these aren't the ends of the spectrum the OP mentioned. HE specifically said:
And thus implied that not solving a problem he personally didn't understand in detail was the same as embracing racism. Thus the hyperbole nazi reference and the fairy tale deus ex machina solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Maybe dwell on what was written a little before replying, instead of feeling so afraid that someone thinks you're racist that you end up with an incoherent argument?
I don't really worry if other people think I am as such. I wonder if I actually am or not. What an accurate definition is and how being one causes problems. I work at avoiding actually being racist mainly because not doing that is how a lot of people become racist.

So do you actually understand what makes a person a racist and how that brings problems?
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  #434  
Old 12-14-2016, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Read my post again. Not sure if you just don't understand, or if you just feel the need to constantly find an argument where there is none. Either way I see no point in continuing to engage you in this nonsense.
Not the first time you've written something easily misunderstood. But it's always someone else's problem if they misunderstand you. And even then you can't resist the passive aggressive exit.

But I've got the last word now and you can't come back for it without looking like an even bigger idiot than me. So neener neener neener!
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  #435  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:02 PM
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I'm confused as to whether our Scandinavian friends here are expressing disappointment that we elected a xenophobic ethnonationalist in Trump, or disappointment that they couldn't vote for him.
We are disappointed that you elected him. Well I personally am and I suspect but can't prove that the others are as well. Some might not be so because he is racist however and I for one see a lot more problems in him than the racism.
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  #436  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:02 PM
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I don't really worry if other people think I am as such. I wonder if I actually am or not. What an accurate definition is and how being one causes problems. I work at avoiding actually being racist mainly because not doing that is how a lot of people become racist.
I'm not saying you're racist. I don't know your heart.

I do see you and Dahllia saying some pretty racist things here. If you aren't racist, you may want to address that moving forward.
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  #437  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:03 PM
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I'm not saying you're racist. I don't know your heart.

I do see you and Dahllia saying some pretty racist things here. If you aren't racist, you may want to address that moving forward.
Which were?
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  #438  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:11 PM
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Which were?
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=340

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=352

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=366

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=405

Re-read these posts. See if you can locate a problem with attributing character attributes - and specifically character flaws- to an entire group of people who are as diverse and individual as the group to which you belong, and then blaming them for all of society's ills.
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  #439  
Old 12-14-2016, 05:20 PM
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http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=340

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=352

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=366

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...&postcount=405

Re-read these posts. See if you can locate a problem with attributing character attributes - and specifically character flaws- to an entire group of people who are as diverse and individual as the group to which you belong, and then blaming them for all of society's ills.
Well DahL can defend himself but how was mine racist? Just so we are on the same page here? I suspect a misunderstanding.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:23 PM
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When you say "So what's it coming to when a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out only gets you accusations of being a racist?"

What's the purpose of pointing out the ethnicity of people who are only "part" of a problem? It is either implying that the ethnicity is intrinsically linked to the problem, or singling them out based on their race when they are not exclusively responsible for the problem, which is unfairly drawing attention to them solely based on their ethnicity. Either could be easily construed to be racist.

What does that observation add to the discussion apart from the specter of an unsavory racial animus?
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