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  #441  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Linking statistics proving problems with immigration is clearly racist. How could I be so bigoted that I spread the truth

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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Honestly not sure what you've got a problem with here? Pointing out that there's issues with immigration and the Germany/Sweden is screwed maybe? But yeah. Clearly racist propaganda right there...

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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
This was an example to prove a point.
And the last sentence about entire districts is again true. Do a quick google search with "Malmö" and crime and you'll get all the proof you need.

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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Naz can handle this one himself.
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  #442  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
When you say "So what's it coming to when a minority that happens to have a common trait of an ethnic variety is part of a fairly large problem and pointing this out only gets you accusations of being a racist?"

What's the purpose of pointing out the ethnicity of people who are only "part" of a problem? It is either implying that the ethnicity is intrinsically linked to the problem, or singling them out based on their race when they are not exclusively responsible for the problem, which is unfairly drawing attention to them solely based on their ethnicity. Either could be easily construed to be racist.
Ah so that was it. What I meant was pointing out that the group was part of a problem not pointing out that they were also connected by ethnicity. That connection is not a part of the problem. But the wording was ambiguous I admit.

So I'll ask again directly from you this time. Do you understand what makes racists racist and how that brings problems?
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  #443  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:51 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Well you were the one who brought up your own problems with racists which had nothing to do with a discussion about Sweden.
It had something to do with what you said. Once again, please refer to when I quoted your post, and bolded a specific statement that I was discussing.


Quote:
So why did you bring up your problems with racists when they weren't the racists (which Sweden no doubt has) in question.
See above.

Quote:
Now we clearly aren't talking the same language anymore. You claim that Swedish racism directly affects your life.
I make no such claim. This was a straw man you brought up.
Quote:
I tell you that it's a different racism problem. And you bring up phenomena which are not in their dynamics similar with racism or even each other.
While telling me it was a different problem, you also said:

"Racism is several problems in several places and while they are similar enough to come under the same lable thinking that they are the same is exactly the kind of thinking that makes racists racist."

I am debating your claim that "thinking they're the same" (which no one did anyway) is somehow what makes racists racist.

Quote:
Come again?
See above? Read what you write before clicking "submit reply"?

Quote:
Well you can see my reasoning in my posts. I am in this discussion to discuss.
As are we all. The problem is, you seem to imply that some discussion can only be had by people of the same nationality, otherwise the person from across the pond involved in the discussion is only in it to prove they're not racist.

Quote:
Among other things discussing a sentiment you posted. I really can't see what other motive there can be for pointing and yelling "racist!" other than attempting to prove yourself a non-racist.
So, the only reason someone can call someone racist is because they want to prove they themselves are not racist? What sort of ass-backward logic is that?

Quote:
Not when the problem in question has a lot more to it than racism and especially when certain aspects are called racist when they aren't. It doesn't help to solve it and in fact gets in the way.
If they are not, in fact, racist, why not work to prove that instead of creating this asinine sideshow about who uses the word racist? And will you please tell me where anyone called either you a racist before you made your original post on this topic?

Quote:
And thus implied that not solving a problem he personally didn't understand in detail was the same as embracing racism.
Uhhh... no. He did no such thing.

Quote:
Thus the hyperbole nazi reference and the fairy tale deus ex machina solution.
Proving that you didn't get what he said.

Quote:
I don't really worry if other people think I am as such. I wonder if I actually am or not. What an accurate definition is and how being one causes problems. I work at avoiding actually being racist mainly because not doing that is how a lot of people become racist.
Well, the basic definition of racism is pretty clear: that you think race plays a deterministic role of any kind in behavior and disposition of another person.

Plumbing deeper, it usually manifests as treating "the other" as a group while seeing individuality and complex motivation when treating with members of similar racial features.

A lot of systemic racism stems from such instinctive treatment of in vs. outgroup members.

This is by no means a comprehensive definition or discussion.

Quote:
So do you actually understand what makes a person a racist and how that brings problems?
I'd never want to claim perfect understanding, but I have a fair understanding of it, yes.

At least, when I want to fight racist tendencies of my own, the first thing I do is force myself to see if treating whatever behavior I'm stereotyping as individual behavior allows me to reassess causation. That is, am I simply confounding a superficial correlation with the cause?

I don't think I've really ever come across anything where that first instinct stands. And in widely agreed upon cases of overt racism, it is that first instinct that I think goes unchallenged. Consider: "Muslims are terrorists", "Mexicans are rapists", "African Americans are beastlike criminals", "Immigrants are welfare sucking layabouts"...

I see a common trend in all such beliefs. The specifics do differ, and knowing how is important. But at heart these all stem from a refusal to treat the outgroup as a collection of individuals.

ETA: The above isn't exclusive to racism, of course. You can see similar issues at play with sexism, colorism, homophobia, transphobia, weightism...

Last edited by fionwe1987; 12-14-2016 at 07:10 PM.
  #444  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Oh hey. It looks as though Michael Flynn shared secrets with unauthorized persons. In Pakistan.

Lock Him Up!
Not sure if this will be enough to get rid of him.

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Flynn has previously acknowledged that he was investigated while serving as the U.S. military intelligence chief in Afghanistan for sharing secrets with British and Australian allies there. But he has dismissed the case as insignificant and has given few details.

The Army documents provide the first official account of the case, but they are limited in scope because the investigation itself remains classified. Former U.S. officials familiar with the matter said that Flynn was accused of telling allies about the activities of other agencies in Afghanistan, including the CIA.
This really doesn't seem like much of a big deal, except of course for the fact that...

Quote:
He egged on the partisan crowd in chants of “lock her up,” adding: “If I, a guy who knows this business, if I did a tenth, a tenth of what she did, I would be in jail today.”
Yeah, this unequivocally seems worse (even if also not much of a big deal) than what she did. It's too bad though that he doesn't need to be confirmed by the senate, because this, especially alongside his odd fascination with that fake pizza-sex trafficking scandal probably would have been enough to scuttle his inclusion if he had to first answer questions before a senate committee.

It is really embarrassing though when the Exxon guy is almost by default one of the most qualified and least controversial selections.
  #445  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Ah so that was it. What I meant was pointing out that the group was part of a problem not pointing out that they were also connected by ethnicity. That connection is not a part of the problem. But the wording was ambiguous I admit.
Yeah, from the way that was worded, it seemed like you were implying there might be some reason to point that out that wasn't motivated by racial animus, and I was wondering what that was. Since you agree that there's no reason to do that except racism, we can move on from there.

Quote:
So I'll ask again directly from you this time. Do you understand what makes racists racist and how that brings problems?
Here's the billboard marking a county a few over from where I grew up. It wasn't removed until the year before I started elementary school.



Yes. I know what makes racists racist, and how that brings problem. Racism is predicated on ignorance, intolerance, and resentment.
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  #446  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
It had something to do with what you said. Once again, please refer to when I quoted your post, and bolded a specific statement that I was discussing.



See above.


I make no such claim. This was a straw man you brought up.

While telling me it was a different problem, you also said:

"Racism is several problems in several places and while they are similar enough to come under the same lable thinking that they are the same is exactly the kind of thinking that makes racists racist."

I am debating your claim that "thinking they're the same" (which no one did anyway) is somehow what makes racists racist.


See above? Read what you write before clicking "submit reply"?


As are we all. The problem is, you seem to imply that some discussion can only be had by people of the same nationality, otherwise the person from across the pond involved in the discussion is only in it to prove they're not racist.


So, the only reason someone can call someone racist is because they want to prove they themselves are not racist? What sort of ass-backward logic is that?


If they are not, in fact, racist, why not work to prove that instead of creating this asinine sideshow about who uses the word racist? And will you please tell me where anyone called either you a racist before you made your original post on this topic?


Uhhh... no. He did no such thing.


Proving that you didn't get what he said.
This is getting old. The misunderstandings just keep piling up and I'm tired of trying to figure them out.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Well, the basic definition of racism is pretty clear: that you think race plays a deterministic role of any kind in behavior and disposition of another person.
The point there is "any kind". That goes too far. Darker skin gives you better protection against UV-rays, while it's less efficient in producing vitamin D in colder climates. Our race affects our bodies and that affects our behaviour. It's when you assume these differences to include something that isn't there that the line is crossed.

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Plumbing deeper, it usually manifests as treating "the other" as a group while seeing individuality and complex motivation when treating with members of similar racial features.

A lot of systemic racism stems from such instinctive treatment of in vs. outgroup members.

This is by no means a comprehensive definition or discussion.
Now this isn't wrong but you are taking your thoughts in the wrong direction. When you judge someone based on their appearance, what do you call it?

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I'd never want to claim perfect understanding, but I have a fair understanding of it, yes.
Now the thing is that I do claim a perfect understanding. I haven't yet managed to produce a solution from it, but I do have the understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
At least, when I want to fight racist tendencies of my own, the first thing I do is force myself to see if treating whatever behavior I'm stereotyping as individual behavior allows me to reassess causation. That is, am I simply confounding a superficial correlation with the cause?

I don't think I've really ever come across anything where that first instinct stands. And in widely agreed upon cases of overt racism, it is that first instinct that I think goes unchallenged. Consider: "Muslims are terrorists", "Mexicans are rapists", "African Americans are beastlike criminals", "Immigrants are welfare sucking layabouts"...

I see a common trend in all such beliefs. The specifics do differ, and knowing how is important. But at heart these all stem from a refusal to treat the outgroup as a collection of individuals.
And if it's the other way around? Thinking that the ingroup is superior and just being born as one means you are superior? Judgement based on race in the opposite direction? Thinking people who look like you are the same as you? Any less racist than the other?
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  #447  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Here's the billboard marking a county a few over from where I grew up. It wasn't removed until the year before I started elementary school.



Yes. I know what makes racists racist, and how that brings problem. Racism is predicated on ignorance, intolerance, and resentment.
You might, but this doesn't in anyway show it. It's like saying a heart attack is bad for you because you die, but not showing you understand how it causes death. Somewhat ironic actually.
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  #448  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:42 PM
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I guess irony, like racism, is slightly beyond your ken at the moment.
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  #449  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:50 PM
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I guess irony, like racism, is slightly beyond your ken at the moment.
Well I think it's ironic that your judgement of them isn't that far above the level of their judgement of others. You take it for granted that growing up with it around you automatically gave you understanding of it.

So SP, is talking the same as thinking?
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  #450  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:56 PM
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This is getting old. The misunderstandings just keep piling up and I'm tired of trying to figure them out.
There's no misunderstanding. You made a statement which I disputed. You just don't seem to want to go back and read what you said.

Quote:
The point there is "any kind". That goes too far. Darker skin gives you better protection against UV-rays, while it's less efficient in producing vitamin D in colder climates.
This is physiology, not behavior, and physiology based on genes with absolutely no impact on behavior, at that. Further, skin color does not a race make. Skin color, for instance, is quite variant within all races, and can be dramatically variant within the same race in some locations.

Quote:
Our race affects our bodies and that affects our behaviour.
Except, when you look at genetic variations within and between races, there's more variation to be found within races than between them. The American Anthropological Association says that the numbers are: 94% within races, 6% between races.

And no, when they say variation, they don't mean specific genes. It's not like the same 6% of genes will reliably be different between any two members of different races.

In biology, any clear classifications of a species based on genetic, morphological and extent basis are called sub-species. Races, however, do not map to any possible biological classification of human sub-species. As of now, no clear genetic, morphological or geography-based sub-species of humans is recognized by scientists, certainly none that neatly map on top of the social construct of race.

Here's a paper about it: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36...ll/ng1455.html

Here's a quote:

Modern human genetic variation does not structure into phylogenetic subspecies (geographical 'races'), nor do the taxa from the most common racial classifications of classical anthropology qualify as 'races' (Box 1). The social or ethnoancestral groups of the US and Latin America are not 'races', and it has not been demonstrated that any human breeding population is sufficiently divergent to be taxonomically recognized by the standards of modern molecular systematics.


We may someday have genetic information of enough breadth and depth to classify humanity into potential subspecies on that basis. But no such effort has yet yielded a classification that matches the current races that we recognize. This remains true 12 years since that paper was published.

Quote:
It's when you assume these differences to include something that isn't there that the line is crossed.
That is definitely a problem, but so is the very idea that race has biological meaning. It does not. And there's a good reason for that. Humans, as a species, have crisscrossed the planet more, and intermingled more than most other species can. We are not very geographically isolated compared to most other species.

Quote:
Now this isn't wrong but you are taking your thoughts in the wrong direction. When you judge someone based on their appearance, what do you call it?
I call it stupidity if I judge someone based on their appearance, but that's beside the point. I'm talking about lumping a bunch of humans together based on appearance and refusing to treat them as individuals.

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Now the thing is that I do claim a perfect understanding.
Is this a secret understanding you're waiting to patent? If not, do share.

Quote:
I haven't yet managed to produce a solution from it, but I do have the understanding.
Uh huh. Go on...

Quote:
And if it's the other way around? Thinking that the ingroup is superior and just being born as one means you are superior? Judgement based on race in the opposite direction? Thinking people who look like you are the same as you? Any less racist than the other?
Not even a little bit. It's just as racist to think the ingroup is better or that it's members are the same as you.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 12-14-2016 at 08:00 PM.
  #451  
Old 12-14-2016, 07:57 PM
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So SP, is talking the same as thinking?
Is splitting hairs the same as splitting hairs?
  #452  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:01 PM
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My judgment of them is not based on inherent characteristics but on opinions they hold and behaviors they enable and engage in which manifestly harm others. Are you suggesting that you can't distinguish judging the actions of another versus judging their immutable characteristics?

I've been socratized by far better rhetoricians than you.

Why don't you make the point you intend to make as opposed to this roundabout way where you try to avoid making actual statements and end up being misunderstood?
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  #453  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:09 PM
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Awww aren't you two just delightfully mad about this.

Well think on it this way. Race isn't the only way to judge someone based on appearance. There is a word for this type of judgement. What is it?
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  #454  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Awww aren't you two just delightfully mad about this.

Well think on it this way. Race isn't the only way to judge someone based on appearance. There is a word for this type of judgement. What is it?
If racism doesn't upset you, that's probably a flaw in your character that you need to remedy.

I know lots of words- why don't you tell me the one you're thinking of, and explain why it matters in this context.
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  #455  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Awww aren't you two just delightfully mad about this.
And there's the proof that you aren't interested in discussion, just in sounding clever to yourself.

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Well think on it this way. Race isn't the only way to judge someone based on appearance.
Indeed not. But we're talking about judging groups of people on things like appearance. Of lumping them together based on appearance. Is that too hard to understand?

Quote:
There is a word for this type of judgement. What is it?
How about you actually tell us, if you know? It seems to me that some people here are interested in having a discussion. You seem to be assuming that you're imparting secret knowledge to us. Which comes across as incredibly funny when coupled with your rather huge gaps in knowledge, like, for instance, assuming race is in any way genetically or biologically valid as a classification system.
  #456  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:30 PM
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Not ready to think I see. Racism is only a subset of a much bigger problem in human behaviour. The word I'm looking for is a very good description of it.

Right now you are both doing it. Not being racist, no, but the same class of thinking.
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  #457  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:33 PM
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StrangePackage StrangePackage is offline
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Not ready to think I see. Racism is only a subset of a much bigger problem in human behaviour. The word I'm looking for is a very good description of it.

Right now you are both doing it. Not being racist, no, but the same class of thinking.


Does anyone else want to discuss the delightful way Trump is systematically undermining every criticism lobbed Hillary's way by one-upping them? This Flynn revelation is especially poignant in light of his speech at the RNC. I wonder if the DOJ will actually pursue these disclosures with the same tenacity that they went after Hillary's email server. For some reason, I'm skeptical.
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  #458  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:45 PM
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Davian93 Davian93 is offline
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Does anyone else want to discuss the delightful way Trump is systematically undermining every criticism lobbed Hillary's way by one-upping them? This Flynn revelation is especially poignant in light of his speech at the RNC. I wonder if the DOJ will actually pursue these disclosures with the same tenacity that they went after Hillary's email server. For some reason, I'm skeptical.
You could almost make the argument that he's picking literally the worst possible people to run each agency and department in an attempt to make him look like the most reasonable one in the room. Every single one of his picks has been someone who is ideologically opposed to the basic mission of that agency.

Its absolutely disgusting and its only going to get worse as he actually becomes President.

And his GOP lackeys are gonna suck on his balls the whole way as long as he signs their disgusting legislation into law.

In other news today, Trump's good buddy Duterte bragged about personally murdering drug suspects today.

Can we please have him visit DC on an official State Visit like Trump has already done? That'd be super. The guy is a fucking serial killer and he's murdering thousands of his own citizens.
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  #459  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Not ready to think I see. Racism is only a subset of a much bigger problem in human behaviour. The word I'm looking for is a very good description of it.

Right now you are both doing it. Not being racist, no, but the same class of thinking.
  #460  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post


Does anyone else want to discuss the delightful way Trump is systematically undermining every criticism lobbed Hillary's way by one-upping them? This Flynn revelation is especially poignant in light of his speech at the RNC. I wonder if the DOJ will actually pursue these disclosures with the same tenacity that they went after Hillary's email server. For some reason, I'm skeptical.
See? There you are judging me rather than my words. Refusing to think out of spite. Oh it feels good to release some anger doesn't it, SP? You are just so cute! It's such a teen angst reaction! Profile says you're 34 and mentally still on the same level as a 17 year old! Or is it that your sense of humor ends when the joke is on you? How very childish of you! And now that I've gone there you can't possibly take anything I say seriously, because your vanity won't let you accept that I might have a point even if I say the sky is blue. But before we depart forever, tell me one thing. Have I started to annoy you yet?
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