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  #541  
Old 12-21-2016, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Are you saying the bible is a lie?
Not at all, I'm saying its fables and story that usually have a moralistic point and most of it is written to say "this is how you should live if you want to be a good, moral person".

Lots of the stories could be summed up as follows:

This guy David was an asshole and see how it ended badly for him?

This fella Moses got greedy...see how it ended for him?

etc etc
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  #542  
Old 12-21-2016, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Not at all, I'm saying its fables and story that usually have a moralistic point and most of it is written to say "this is how you should live if you want to be a good, moral person".
Galileo Galilei came with a similar claim when he said (in Italian, or maybe in Latin): "The Bible doesn't teach how the heavens go, it teaches how to go to Heaven." Didn't save him from being convicted by those who understood God's word and intentions better, of course.
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  #543  
Old 12-21-2016, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Not at all, I'm saying its fables and story that usually have a moralistic point and most of it is written to say "this is how you should live if you want to be a good, moral person".

Lots of the stories could be summed up as follows:

This guy David was an asshole and see how it ended badly for him?

This fella Moses got greedy...see how it ended for him?

etc etc
So you're saying that it is not a literal truth, which somehow is not the same as a lie?
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  #544  
Old 12-21-2016, 01:21 PM
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So you're saying that it is not a literal truth, which somehow is not the same as a lie?
I suspect that a "don't try this in a court of law" disclaimer would be useful right now. But with that caveat, you are entirely correct. Or, to put it in the proper terms: it is Gospel Truth.
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  #545  
Old 12-21-2016, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I suspect that a "don't try this in a court of law" disclaimer would be useful right now. But with that caveat, you are entirely correct. Or, to put it in the proper terms: it is Gospel Truth.
Yes, if you cut one of your own ribs out to try and make a wife...you're probably gonna die, not have a life partner.

Well, unless the paramedic is a female and falls in love with you or something...before you bleed out or die of infection that is.
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  #546  
Old 12-21-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
So you're saying that it is not a literal truth, which somehow is not the same as a lie?
How could a fictional story be a lie?
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  #547  
Old 12-21-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
How could a fictional story be a lie?
How can it not?
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  #548  
Old 12-21-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
How can it not?
Maccabees is actually pretty close to just a historical record of the successful Jewish revolt, of Judas Maccabeus, against Antiochus IV of Syria.

Even with the older tales, where the stories are far more myth than history, even there scholars can sometimes pull more than just moralizing lessons from the stories. Noah is useful as it shows not just the commonality of flood myths across the Near East (due to distant memory of the flooding from the close of the last ice age), but also obvious Babylonian influences, in that Noah is just a plagiarism of the tale of Utnapishtim. Exodus is also useful, albeit incredibly inaccurate from a historical perspective, as it allows for analysis of the connection between the Jewish version of the story, and what seems to have actually happened, with the semitic invaders, the Hyksos, having conquered (rather than being themselves enslaved) Egypt and then being driven out by the Egyptians.

It's similar to how there is historical usefulness in studying the Greek myths, or the Mabinogion and Arthurian legends, or the Viking sagas and Beowulf.
  #549  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:06 PM
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Even if partially true, historically illuminating, morally educational or highly entertaining, fiction is still a lie. It can be useful, but it is a lie and its usefulness depends on people knowing it is a lie.
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  #550  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Maccabees is actually pretty close to just a historical record of the successful Jewish revolt, of Judas Maccabeus, against Antiochus IV of Syria.

Even with the older tales, where the stories are far more myth than history, even there scholars can sometimes pull more than just moralizing lessons from the stories. Noah is useful as it shows not just the commonality of flood myths across the Near East (due to distant memory of the flooding from the close of the last ice age), but also obvious Babylonian influences, in that Noah is just a plagiarism of the tale of Utnapishtim. Exodus is also useful, albeit incredibly inaccurate from a historical perspective, as it allows for analysis of the connection between the Jewish version of the story, and what seems to have actually happened, with the semitic invaders, the Hyksos, having conquered (rather than being themselves enslaved) Egypt and then being driven out by the Egyptians.

It's similar to how there is historical usefulness in studying the Greek myths, or the Mabinogion and Arthurian legends, or the Viking sagas and Beowulf.
What he said.
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  #551  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Yes, if you cut one of your own ribs out to try and make a wife...you're probably gonna die, not have a life partner.

Well, unless the paramedic is a female and falls in love with you or something...before you bleed out or die of infection that is.
Crap. And here I was gonna make myself a small harem
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  #552  
Old 12-21-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
What he said.
A lie is still a lie.
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  #553  
Old 12-21-2016, 10:59 PM
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fiction is still a lie
Wrong.

There are many types of fiction.
One of them is a lie, which implicates a deliberate intention to pass a known untruth off as a truth.

All lies are fiction, but not all fiction is lies.
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  #554  
Old 12-22-2016, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Exodus is also useful, albeit incredibly inaccurate from a historical perspective, as it allows for analysis of the connection between the Jewish version of the story, and what seems to have actually happened, with the semitic invaders, the Hyksos, having conquered (rather than being themselves enslaved) Egypt and then being driven out by the Egyptians.
I don't think there is much reason to think that the Hyksos were monotheists. However, not long after that, there appeared in Egypt what seems to be the first monotheist: Pharaoh Akhenaten. He converted a bunch of others, at least in part because, being the Pharaoh, converting was the only path to official positions during his reign. Many of those converts fell away when polytheism came back upon Akhenaten's death, of course, but there will inevitably have been some holdouts. Considering how hostile the priests were to monotheism at the time, it seems likely that they left and could easily have ended up in what is now Israel. Where, of course, they wouldn't claim to have been minor functionaries under a discredited Pharaoh.
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  #555  
Old 12-22-2016, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Oatman View Post
Wrong.

There are many types of fiction.
One of them is a lie, which implicates a deliberate intention to pass a known untruth off as a truth.

All lies are fiction, but not all fiction is lies.
If it is fiction it is not true and therefore a lie.

It might not be in anyway malevolent, but it is still a lie.
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  #556  
Old 12-22-2016, 05:40 AM
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If it is fiction it is not true and therefore a lie.

It might not be in anyway malevolent, but it is still a lie.
You are incorrectly having lie and true as opposites. The opposite of lie is truth, and the opposite of true is false. The distinction of a lie is in the intent to deceive.

Your post is a perfect example. You have told me the truth, so far as you are concerned, but the information is false. Despite providing false information, you have not lied.
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  #557  
Old 12-22-2016, 10:31 AM
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You are incorrectly having lie and true as opposites. The opposite of lie is truth, and the opposite of true is false. The distinction of a lie is in the intent to deceive.

Your post is a perfect example. You have told me the truth, so far as you are concerned, but the information is false. Despite providing false information, you have not lied.
If something is a falsehood then it is a lie. This is not dependent on the intent of whoever speaks it. A person who tells a lie is not necessarily a liar. If they don't seek to deceive another, then it is not dishonest. Falsehoods can be entertaining. They can be informative in what people believe and what they don't. They can help understand the true rules of the universe. But they are not true and trouble follows when people forget that.

You choose a definition which much more dangerous. Intentions make poor definitions especially with falsehoods. You may admit that parts of the bible were fiction, but making claims of the writers' intentions is completely pointless. On the other hand it is clear that even if the writers didn't intend to deceive, people have been deceived and calling these falsehoods something else than lies in no way lessens the damage done.

Intentions are only good for defining the people who act. Actions themselves should only be defined or judged based on the results.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I don't think there is much reason to think that the Hyksos were monotheists. However, not long after that, there appeared in Egypt what seems to be the first monotheist: Pharaoh Akhenaten. He converted a bunch of others, at least in part because, being the Pharaoh, converting was the only path to official positions during his reign. Many of those converts fell away when polytheism came back upon Akhenaten's death, of course, but there will inevitably have been some holdouts. Considering how hostile the priests were to monotheism at the time, it seems likely that they left and could easily have ended up in what is now Israel. Where, of course, they wouldn't claim to have been minor functionaries under a discredited Pharaoh.
Part of the problem is that we have no clue who the pharaoh of the Exodus is supposed to be, or indeed when it should accurately have occurred, since the Jewish account is vague, and the Egyptian accounts offer no such possibility for what the Jews describe, but have a few other expulsions of foreigners, mentioned in the Egyptian account by Manetho, that could be what the Jews corrupted into their version. Manetho seems the more reliable of the two versions.

The Hyksos, Canaanite invaders start appearing in Egypt c.1800 BCE. By 1720 they ruled the Nile Delta. By 1650 they ruled all of the North (Lower Egypt), and briefly ruled even Thebes in Upper Egypt, but their power was always more centered in the North. And, unsurprisingly, their chief deity was Baal. Baal=El=Yahweh=Zeus. All of these gods are the same. Baal and El are essentially just generic words for god. Moreover, this Baal of the Hyksos was a Sky God. Were they polytheists though, or monotheists? Most of the other peoples of the Levant (all of whom tended to have their own Baal, Baal of Sidon, of Tyre, etc) were obviously polytheists, but then so too were the early Jews, as we know from archaeology that El/Yahweh once had a consort goddess, Asherah, and even still worshipped other Baals commonly, clearly to the annoyance of the priests of Yahweh, as seen again in the Moses legend via the episode with the golden calf. Monotheism doesn't seem to truly take the Jews until pretty late, usually seen as being an evolution that occurred either in Babylon, or a final purification performed only during the rule of the Maccabees themselves.

The Hyksos were expelled from Egypt c.1550 BCE. That's the beginning of the 18th Dynasty for Egypt. Amenhotep IV (i.e. Akenaten) was 18th Dynasty, but much later, around 200 years later. Josephus, using Manetho as a source, was the first major Jewish source to connect the Hyksos with the Jews and Exodus. Josephus, again using Manetho, thought that Moses might have been Osarseph, a renegade priest mentioned by Manetho, that led a leper army, and allied with a later band of invading Hyksos. According to Manetho, this Osarseph and his leper + Hyksos army was expelled from Egypt by a pharaoh Amenophis, which is an alternate version of the name Amenhotep. There are unfortunately four Amenhoteps in the 18th, the last being Akenaten.

Either of these Hyksos expulsions could thus be what gave rise to the Exodus story, though Josephus seems to have preferred the second one, as it gave him a good candidate for Moses. It is also quite a bit closer to Akenaten, thus it might account for a few lingering renegade priests of the Hyksos god, Baal, along with renegade priests of the Aten, mixing their two anti-social sky gods into one monotheistic deity, the Aten of Amenhotep IV.

Last edited by Kimon; 12-22-2016 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 12-22-2016, 02:12 PM
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You choose a definition which much more dangerous. Intentions make poor definitions especially with falsehoods.
I'm not choosing a definition, I'm correcting your incorrect definition.

Look, here is the definition from the Oxford Dictionary:

Quote:
An intentionally false statement
And here is the definition from dictionary.com:

Quote:
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
The dictionary definition of a lie includes intent.
You can either accept this, or continue to use your own incorrect definition. Either way I'm done. You can't have a constructive discussion with someone who wilfully ignores facts. They are either liars or idiots.
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  #560  
Old 12-22-2016, 06:00 PM
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I'm not choosing a definition, I'm correcting your incorrect definition.

Look, here is the definition from the Oxford Dictionary:



And here is the definition from dictionary.com:



The dictionary definition of a lie includes intent.
You can either accept this, or continue to use your own incorrect definition. Either way I'm done. You can't have a constructive discussion with someone who wilfully ignores facts. They are either liars or idiots.
So when the popular belief was the earth being flat, you would have believed it? You can't call something a fact when it is merely the popular opinion. And anyone who says they're done with a conversation just because someone disagrees with them isn't on the mental level of an adult.

Besides if somebody willfully ignores a fact they can't be liars by your definition. They would after all believe in what they say and can't therefore be intentionally untruthful. "Delusional" would have been a much better insult.
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