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  #561  
Old 12-22-2016, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
So when the popular belief was the earth being flat, you would have believed it? You can't call something a fact when it is merely the popular opinion. And anyone who says they're done with a conversation just because someone disagrees with them isn't on the mental level of an adult.

Besides if somebody willfully ignores a fact they can't be liars by your definition. They would after all believe in what they say and can't therefore be intentionally untruthful. "Delusional" would have been a much better insult.
I think that both of you are using to narrow of a definition. Fiction can tell truth, and nonfiction can tell lies. Or, to put this in WoT parlance, an Aes Sedai can speak a word that is untrue so long as they believe it to be truth. It's a flaw in the oath, but it shows a distinction between lying and simply being incorrect.

Or as George would say...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ

To use your flat earth example, believing the earth is flat is wrong, but it need not be a lie. Or to put it another way, an atheist and a believer can have a conversation, the former can say that there is no god, the latter that god exists, and neither is likely lying. One is perhaps right, and one perhaps wrong, but that is not the same thing.
  #562  
Old 12-22-2016, 09:05 PM
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Let us assume four fictional people: Mary, Emily, Peter and David. Mary and David are married, Peter and Emily are their friends. Peter has been David's friend for a long time and knows that he is cheating on his wife. One day while going home from work Peter runs into Mary, who asks him where her husband might be. David having left work earlier, Peter concludes that he must be seeing his mistress and covers for him by claiming that Emily wanted his opinion on something and the two went for a drink. What Peter doesn't know is that Emily is the mistress in question and what he told Mary as a lie is actually true.

Does Peter's intent to deceive turn a truth into a lie?
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  #563  
Old 12-22-2016, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Does Peter's intent to deceive turn a truth into a lie?
No, though in your example he was simply guessing, rather than knowing, and thus what he intended as a lie was accidentally true. You can, however, tell a truth with the intent to deceive. Have you seen Ladyhawke? Matthew Broderick's character, Philippe Gaston, tries to tell the chasing knights their true direction for pursuit, expecting that they would assume he was lying. They, unfortunately saw through his ruse.

This scene also basically plays upon that premise of the deceptive truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ
  #564  
Old 12-22-2016, 09:58 PM
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And how often are people aware that they are guessing? How much of what they believe can they prove for certain? It is already extremely difficult to say what is true and what is false. If you add intentions to the mix it is practically impossible to call anything a lie and at the same time saying that it definitely isn't is equally impossible.

If people are deceived, why isn't what they believe a lie just because the deception wasn't intentional?

If a deceived person innocently repeats someone else's lies, are the people listening to him suddenly not listening to lies?
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  #565  
Old 12-22-2016, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
If a deceived person innocently repeats someone else's lies, are the people listening to him suddenly not listening to lies?
And we've come full circle.

If someone lies, and claims to be a prophet, when knowing that they are not, then they are lying. If their lies convince others to proselytize in their name, so long as those acolytes have been genuinely deceived, and thus operating upon belief rather than an attempt to deceive, they, unlike the false prophet, are not lying. They are, however, repeating an untruth. You're blurring the nuance. If a priest believes that what he is preaching is the truth, even if it is wrong, it is not a lie.

Think of it this way, if someone believes that global warming is a hoax, they can tell you that it is a lie without lying themselves. They are simply wrong, not lying.
  #566  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:51 AM
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Nazbaque, using your definition, everything everyone has ever said was a lie. After all, we know that we don't know the truth perfectly, so there are always inaccuracies in what we think we know and thus in what we say. This means that nothing said is ever completely true, and hence according to you it is always a lie.
While this simplifies things, I don't think it is a useful take on human communication. For starters: everyone who ever acted as a witness in a trial should automatically be locked up for perjury afterwards, on the grounds that whatever he or she said, it was a lie.
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  #567  
Old 12-23-2016, 04:51 AM
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You can't call something a fact when it is merely the popular opinion.
The only thing I have called fact is the definition of 'lie' from the dictionary. Dispute that all you like, but it is the definitive book of definitions.

Quote:
So when the popular belief was the earth being flat, you would have believed it?
If I was a native to that time, more that likely yes. The reason the majority did was because there was little evidence available to the masses showing the Earth was round. Hard to give a definite answer to that question, and it seems kind of pointless.

Quote:
And anyone who says they're done with a conversation just because someone disagrees with them isn't on the mental level of an adult.
I'm not done because you disagree. I'm done because the conversation is over. Either you agree with the dictionary definition of 'lie', or you dispute the dictionary definition.
If you agree with the dictionary definition then we are in agreement, and there is nothing further to discuss. If you dispute it, there is no amount of evidence that will convince you, and there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Quote:
Besides if somebody willfully ignores a fact they can't be liars by your definition. They would after all believe in what they say and can't therefore be intentionally untruthful. "Delusional" would have been a much better insult.
They can be liars, if they are aware of and believe the fact, but argue against it anyway. There are at least two professions based around this, lawyers and politicians.
I will concede that I failed to recognise that mental illness is also a possibility.
I will also admit that 'idiot' was probably the wrong word to use. My vocabulary doesn't currently include a word for willful ignorance despite evidence to maintain an argument, but I read 'trumperdick' earlier in the thread and that seems apt, so I'll amend.

Quote:
I think that both of you are using to narrow of a definition.
The definition that I am using comes straight from the dictionary for 'lie'
He is using the wrong definition. The word that he is looking for is 'false' - Not according with truth or fact; incorrect
Other than that, I agree with everything that you said.

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Does Peter's intent to deceive turn a truth into a lie?
Quote:
No, though in your example he was simply guessing, rather than knowing, and thus what he intended as a lie was accidentally true.
I would actually say yes, the intent to deceive makes this a lie. Truth and lies are relative to what is believed to be true or false. That does not mean a lie has to be false anymore than the truth has to be true.
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  #568  
Old 12-23-2016, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
And we've come full circle.

If someone lies, and claims to be a prophet, when knowing that they are not, then they are lying. If their lies convince others to proselytize in their name, so long as those acolytes have been genuinely deceived, and thus operating upon belief rather than an attempt to deceive, they, unlike the false prophet, are not lying. They are, however, repeating an untruth. You're blurring the nuance. If a priest believes that what he is preaching is the truth, even if it is wrong, it is not a lie.

Think of it this way, if someone believes that global warming is a hoax, they can tell you that it is a lie without lying themselves. They are simply wrong, not lying.
It is still a lie. The priest is not intentionally lying and at least on that account is not a liar, but he is repeating words that are a lie. A lie will remain a lie no matter who speaks it or why. To define something as a lie based on the beliefs and intentions of the speaker is to judge a message based on the messanger. Intentions define the person not the act. If what is spoken is untrue it is a lie. The speaker of a lie is a liar if they do so intentionally and honestly mistaken if not, but the lie remains a lie.

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Nazbaque, using your definition, everything everyone has ever said was a lie. After all, we know that we don't know the truth perfectly, so there are always inaccuracies in what we think we know and thus in what we say. This means that nothing said is ever completely true, and hence according to you it is always a lie.
While this simplifies things, I don't think it is a useful take on human communication. For starters: everyone who ever acted as a witness in a trial should automatically be locked up for perjury afterwards, on the grounds that whatever he or she said, it was a lie.
Oh it is definitely possible to speak the truth. Just adding the words "I believe that" to the beginning of a sentence pretty much covers you. Your belief might be wrong, but you can be certain that it is your belief. Always state that something is what you think and what you are stating is that you have the following opinion and you have not lied. This is the attitude of someone who accepts the possibility of being wrong.

Further I really do believe that there is something inherently wrong in judging a person based on a witness statement from something as fallible as a human being. The whole thing reeks of people deciding what is true rather than observing it. And I might go so far as say that people who don't treat truth with respect and humility actually deserve some punishment.

If someone intentionally lies in a court room they are a danger to society. Much more so than someone who ignores their own fallibility. People who intentionally kill are more dangerous than those who accidentally cause death. However from the specific point of view of the person who died or was wrongly convicted their intentions are rather meaningless.

Now what else... The person who gives a witness statement that does happen to be true and injustice is avoided. The person who drives recklessly, but no accident occurs as a result. Just because nothing bad happened on these occasions doesn't mean their behaviour was safe. Some lighter form of punishment would be deserved for such behaviour.

So basically Gonzo you gave an example of something inherently flawed being shown as inherently flawed as an argument against my definition of a lie. Do you think ignoring a flaw is healthy?
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  #569  
Old 12-23-2016, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Intentions define the person not the act. If what is spoken is untrue it is a lie. The speaker of a lie is a liar if they do so intentionally and honestly mistaken if not, but the lie remains a lie.
This seems to be the point of contention. You seem to be asserting that incorrect = lie. I disagree.

If I say that today is Thursday, that is incorrect. If I simply have forgotten what day it is, but genuinely thought that today was Thursday when asked, I am not lying to the person I was speaking to, I simply have lost track of what day it is. If, on the other hand, I knew that today was in fact Friday, and said instead that it was Thursday, that would be a lie. The speaker must know that what they are saying is untrue for it to be a lie.
  #570  
Old 12-23-2016, 09:22 AM
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Actually, during much of a Friday, it is also Thursday. Just not in the same place, usually. But does truth depend on where you are in space and time? If so, is that then true for all truth or just some of it, and, most difficult of course: why?
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  #571  
Old 12-23-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Actually, during much of a Friday, it is also Thursday. Just not in the same place, usually. But does truth depend on where you are in space and time? If so, is that then true for all truth or just some of it, and, most difficult of course: why?
lol- Gonzo you are ridiculous
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:59 AM
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lol- Gonzo you are ridiculous
Perhaps. I'm also aware that I'm living in a different time zone than you are. Sometimes that doesn't matter for what day it is, at other times it does. It all depends on the time.
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  #573  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:12 PM
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Not directly related to Trump, but likely the model that the Republican party will try to emulate on the national level- North Carolina is now no longer actually a democracy.

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...122593759.html


In 2005, in the midst of a career of traveling around the world to help set up elections in some of the most challenging places on earth – Afghanistan, Burma, Egypt, Lebanon, South Africa, Sudan and Yemen, among others – my Danish colleague, Jorgen Elklit, and I designed the first comprehensive method for evaluating the quality of elections around the world. Our system measured 50 moving parts of an election process and covered everything from the legal framework to the polling day and counting of ballots.

In 2012 Elklit and I worked with Pippa Norris of Harvard University, who used the system as the cornerstone of the Electoral Integrity Project. Since then the EIP has measured 213 elections in 153 countries and is widely agreed to be the most accurate method for evaluating how free and fair and democratic elections are across time and place.

When we evolved the project I could never imagine that as we enter 2017, my state, North Carolina, would perform so badly on this, and other, measures that we are no longer considered to be a fully functioning democracy.

In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone. If it were a nation state, North Carolina would rank right in the middle of the global league table – a deeply flawed, partly free democracy that is only slightly ahead of the failed democracies that constitute much of the developing world.

Indeed, North Carolina does so poorly on the measures of legal framework and voter registration, that on those indicators we rank alongside Iran and Venezuela. When it comes to the integrity of the voting district boundaries no country has ever received as low a score as the 7/100 North Carolina received. North Carolina is not only the worst state in the USA for unfair districting but the worst entity in the world ever analyzed by the Electoral Integrity Project. (emphasis added)

That North Carolina can no longer call its elections democratic is shocking enough, but our democratic decline goes beyond what happens at election time. The most respected measures of democracy — Freedom House, POLITY and the Varieties of Democracy project — all assess the degree to which the exercise of power depends on the will of the people: That is, governance is not arbitrary, it follows established rules and is based on popular legitimacy.

The extent to which North Carolina now breaches these principles means our state government can no longer be classified as a full democracy.

First, legislative power does not depend on the votes of the people. One party wins just half the votes but 100 percent of the power. The GOP has a huge legislative majority giving it absolute veto-proof control with that tiny advantage in the popular vote. The other party wins just a handful of votes less and 0 percent of the legislative power. This is above and beyond the way in which state legislators are detached from democratic accountability as a result of the rigged district boundaries. They are beholden to their party bosses, not the voters. Seventy-six of the 170 (45 percent) incumbent state legislators were not even opposed by the other party in the general election.

Second, democracies do not limit their citizens’ rights on the basis of their born identities. However, this is exactly what the North Carolina legislature did through House Bill 2 (there are an estimated 38,000 transgender Tar Heels), targeted attempts to reduce African-American and Latino access to the vote and pernicious laws to constrain the ability of women to act as autonomous citizens.

Third, government in North Carolina has become arbitrary and detached from popular will. When, in response to losing the governorship, one party uses its legislative dominance to take away significant executive power, it is a direct attack upon the separation of powers that defines American democracy. When a wounded legislative leadership, and a lame-duck executive, force through draconian changes with no time for robust review and debate it leaves Carolina no better than the authoritarian regimes we look down upon.

What is to be done? How do we reverse the slide and become a democracy once again? Many of the issues that face us are national questions, but there are flaws in our government that can be corrected at the state level.

The first step to recovery is self-awareness. We need to put aside the complacent hyperbole and accept that in North Carolina we no longer live in a functioning democracy worth its name. We have become one of those struggling developing world states that needs to claw its way slowly toward democratic integrity.

Practically we need to address the institutional failures which have cost us our democratic ranking – districting, equal access to the vote and the abuse of legislative power. An independent commission is the sine-qua-non of democratic districting (no democracy in the world outside of the U.S. allows the elected politicians to draw the lines). Voter registration and poll access should make voting as easy as possible and never be skewed in favor of any one section of society. Last, elected officials need to respect the core principles of democracy – respect the will of the voters, all the voters and play the game with integrity.

Respect for democracy is not a partisan issue. In America true Republicans are as loyal to democratic principles as are Democrats.
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  #574  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Not directly related to Trump, but likely the model that the Republican party will try to emulate on the national level- North Carolina is now no longer actually a democracy.

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...122593759.html
Just came here to post about that.
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  #575  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:20 PM
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It is pure insanity. I've been following this from when McRory refused to concede, and the brazenness of the GOP is just stunning.

I'm fully certain the national GOP will be happily taking notes, to use if they're ever unseated from power.
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Old 12-24-2016, 03:23 AM
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Well, to be fair to the right wing in the USA: they have often declared that the USA is not a democracy, so having them take steps to make their words come true makes them more honest than usual.
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Old 12-25-2016, 05:47 PM
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It is pure insanity. I've been following this from when McRory refused to concede, and the brazenness of the GOP is just stunning.

I'm fully certain the national GOP will be happily taking notes, to use if they're ever unseated from power.
Just think about the fact that they're only like 1-2 State Houses away from being able to amend the constitution.

Nothing to worry about, right?
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Old 12-25-2016, 07:07 PM
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Just think about the fact that they're only like 1-2 State Houses away from being able to amend the constitution.

Nothing to worry about, right?
Gay marriage amendment? Repeal of birthright citizenship in the 14th?
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Old 12-26-2016, 04:03 AM
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Gay marriage amendment? Repeal of birthright citizenship in the 14th?
Repeal of the 13th?
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Old 12-26-2016, 03:09 PM
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Gay marriage amendment? Repeal of birthright citizenship in the 14th?
I could totally see them doing the latter...and I could see them getting fairly widespread support even among conservative Democrats for a modification of birthright citizenship if they word it intelligently. Say they just change it to say "Your mother must have legal presence in the country for you to be given citizenship". That would eliminate the so-called "anchor baby" phenomenan that the Right (and decent portions of the Left) hate.

In the current climate of ultra nationalism and hatred of anything different, that would be a pretty easy sell I think.
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