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  #661  
Old 01-18-2017, 09:58 AM
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Truly, Obama is the first person in history to commute and or pardon people at the end of his term...

Like all those pardons he handed out for his national security folks that were running an illegal war in S. America and selling weapons to Iran, a known enemy, to help finance it. How many death squad soldiers did we support in Nicaragua thanks to that illegal (expressly forbidden by Congress) war Obama funded?


Oh wait, that was Bush Sr pardoning everyone who even had tangential involvement in Iran-Contra.

But yes, Obama is the first to do so.
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  #662  
Old 01-18-2017, 10:03 AM
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Or we could talk about Bush Jr commuting the sentence of Scooter Libby for his part in outing Valerie Plame. That was a classy move all around by his Administration.
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  #663  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:24 PM
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Shhh, Dav. You're wasting your breathe. Obama did it, so it's evil, traitorous, blasphemous, and insane. If any Republican had done it, it'd be ok. No matter the reasoning, you provide for it, it's wrong and anti-freedom and anti-American and nothing you say is going to change his mind.

I'd put Southpaw on my ignore list, but I'm too damned lazy.
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  #664  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:32 PM
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I refuse to allow him to spout BS "fake news" unchallenged.

A big part of why we now have that incompetent orange faced ape as President is because nobody really challenged his bullshit claims on anything.
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  #665  
Old 01-18-2017, 04:44 PM
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Man, I just get a kick out of everything. Going to work in the mornings and then coming here after the day is over, and one particular Warrant in the Army who likes to put on his tin foil hat every day, sure it gets a little exasperating, but it's fun. And hilarious. I still find it hard to believe that Trump is being sworn in in a couple of days.

But I sure do get a kick out of it.
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  #666  
Old 01-18-2017, 05:06 PM
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So our guy soon will be in the white house, right?
  #667  
Old 01-18-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I refuse to allow him to spout BS "fake news" unchallenged.

A big part of why we now have that incompetent orange faced ape as President is because nobody really challenged his bullshit claims on anything.
Had he actually wished to generate a constructive debate of the merits of these acts of clemency, he obviously should have framed his critique in a way that made it seem something more than mere ranting invective. Nonetheless, there is room for debate on Chelsea Manning, especially as it should raise the question of why this case, but not Bergdahl or Snowden. Of course, Bergdahl hasn't yet faced an actual trial, but his crime, essentially just desertion, is far less serious than either Manning's or Snowden's. Likewise, Snowden has the added problem of his flight from justice, and thus also has yet to face an actual trial, though had he his conviction would have been just as certain as Manning's. Nonetheless, Snowden likely would be viewed by most as the most deserving of forgiveness, if not full pardon. With Rivera, his age, along with the already lengthy duration of his incarceration doubtless played a large role in that decision. Should we view Manning's decision as based simply upon the merits of the case itself, or was it partly, or mostly, an issue of psychiatric evaluation as well?

As to your other point, this might well be a very odd presidency, to such an extent that we can't necessarily even yet deny all of his outlandish promises. If he was a normal dem or republican I'd be expecting a slow move towards trying to convince the populace of the merits of defending free trade, trying to convince that while it does clearly harm some, that it is still in the best interests of the majority. But he is still threatening tariffs. And I'm not certain that this is just a threat. And the wall? It's stupid, but I wouldn't be surprised if we wasted a few billion putting up more pointless fencing along the border with Mexico. And deportations? The business community will still want cheap labor (the same reason why business and consumers, for cheaper goods, will still in the end want to defend free trade), so will still want access to, just as Trump exploited so often in the past himself, cheaper immigrant labor, nor care if it is less than legal, so long as it benefits their profit margin. But does that mean that he won't increase deportations of certain scapegoated groups for increased ostracism? That certainly wouldn't surprise me either. And health care? He isn't shilling the usual republican mantra here. His message is still populist, still calling for a movement towards universal care. I wouldn't be surprised if all we actually see is a change in branding, with nothing really being altered except with Obamacare "repealed" and then immediately resurrected as an all but identical Trumpcare.

Last edited by Kimon; 01-18-2017 at 05:14 PM.
  #668  
Old 01-18-2017, 07:47 PM
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I think the key difference between Manning and Bergdahl/Snowden is that she's already been imprisoned for almost 7 years so she's "served time" for her crime so to speak.

Snowden also massively exacerbated his crime by fleeing to a hostile nation and openly meeting with intelligence agents of that country while also maintaining a public profile that is highly critical of the US.

For Bergdahl, I think its more about him not being convicted of anything yet and wanting to let the process work itself out.
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  #669  
Old 01-18-2017, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I refuse to allow him to spout BS "fake news" unchallenged.

A big part of why we now have that incompetent orange faced ape as President is because nobody really challenged his bullshit claims on anything.
Oh, I'll agree with that, but is anyone here actually falling for that bs?

It's like a church with a minister, a choir, and that one drunk asshole that's got nowhere else to go.
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  #670  
Old 01-18-2017, 08:34 PM
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Im not in favor of anyone who leaks secrets - however purportedly benign - hostile entities. Which at this point we must conclude Assange is. Passing secrets to Wikileaks is passing secrets to Putin.

Same with Snowden. He took his files to Russia. Therefore it is without question that he has delivered state secrets to perhaps the most dangerously hostile government out there. He is a traitor. So is she.

Im against this pardon. Even if - as some speculate - it is a long game plan from Obama to pressure Assange to honor his promise to self-extradite. Come on.


EDIT: Oh, and Southpaw making this a gender issue is the heighth of idiocy. As we expect.
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  #671  
Old 01-18-2017, 09:27 PM
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In a perfect world, Snowden would be put up against a wall and shot and Manning would be beaten with a belt until she begged for mercy and then beaten some more.

A shame its not a perfect world.
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  #672  
Old 01-18-2017, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
In a perfect world, Snowden would be put up against a wall and shot and Manning would be beaten with a belt until she begged for mercy and then beaten some more.

A shame its not a perfect world.
No, in a perfect world your government wouldn't have been doing shit that required people break their oaths and divulge classified information.
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  #673  
Old 01-18-2017, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
No, in a perfect world your government wouldn't have been doing shit that required people break their oaths and divulge classified information.
Well, there's that too....
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  #674  
Old 01-18-2017, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
In a perfect world, Snowden would be put up against a wall and shot and Manning would be beaten with a belt until she begged for mercy and then beaten some more.

A shame its not a perfect world.
I'd be willing to bet she's been beaten about that bad at least once while in prison, Dav.

Nothing she leaked was above "secret."

She was a transgender woman living in an all-male prison and seeking gender reassignment surgery that the military has never provided before. She attempted suicide twice, and had to go on a hunger strike to get any treatment at all for her gender dysphoria.

She's already served 7 years in prison, and commutation does not remove the convictions or any of the other felony consequences (no voting, no firearms, etc.). Her sentence was more than 30 years longer than the next longest sentence ever set down for the crimes she was convicted of.

And while we know now that Assange is a Russian puppet, that was not necessarily the case in 2009 when Manning leaked the documents- and she only went to wikileaks because the American press was unwilling to accept what information she offered.

This was mercy, and I have no problem with it.
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  #675  
Old 01-18-2017, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
No, in a perfect world your government wouldn't have been doing shit that required people break their oaths and divulge classified information.
I'm more sympathetic to what Snowden did, and his reasons for his treason were at least somewhat honorable and well-intentioned. Nonetheless, the collection of meta-data that he was seeking to uncover still was not particularly insidious, nor was it particularly imprudent. The real issue here seems, at least in my opinion, to be whether we simply cast so wide a net that it was nigh impossible to sift through what we had caught, not whether the fishing for that information itself was wrong. Snowden strikes me as well-intentioned, but naive. But still a traitor. I'd just rescind his citizenship, and tell him he can't ever come home, but that we won't seek to extradite him back home to stand trial if he chooses to reside in someplace less awful than Russia.

What Manning did strikes me as far worse. And what she revealed was just a mix of accidental collateral damage that will crop up in any war, along with diplomatic cables that not only served to compromise hundreds of field agents, but also only served to embarrass and endanger America and its operatives while revealing nothing of real wrongdoing by America. It was just the usual evil bs that one should expect from the types of idiots that would act as stooges for that pos Assange. Manning would clearly still be in prison if it were up to me.

As for Assange, I'd probably have to rely on advisers to talk me out of arranging an accident for him...
  #676  
Old 01-18-2017, 11:43 PM
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I'd be willing to bet she's been beaten about that bad at least once while in prison, Dav.

Nothing she leaked was above "secret."

She was a transgender woman living in an all-male prison and seeking gender reassignment surgery that the military has never provided before. She attempted suicide twice, and had to go on a hunger strike to get any treatment at all for her gender dysphoria.

She's already served 7 years in prison, and commutation does not remove the convictions or any of the other felony consequences (no voting, no firearms, etc.). Her sentence was more than 30 years longer than the next longest sentence ever set down for the crimes she was convicted of.

And while we know now that Assange is a Russian puppet, that was not necessarily the case in 2009 when Manning leaked the documents- and she only went to wikileaks because the American press was unwilling to accept what information she offered.

This was mercy, and I have no problem with it.
And even then, with the conviction in place, what kind of life will she have? Who's going to hire her with her history, or provide the surgery she desires/requires?

It's certainly better than being in prison and her treatment there, but she's still deep in the woods.
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  #677  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:14 AM
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Same with Snowden. He took his files to Russia.
Did he really?
I thought that he'd given the bunch to a couple of journalists and had deliberately not kept the files himself, so as to be unable to hand over any more secrets to (for instance) the Russians. If you have actual proof that Snowden lied about this issue, could you please supply it? Of course, you would then probably have to go into hiding yourself, since such proof may be a state secret, but that's a small price to pay for setting straight a lie. Alternatively, if it was you who was spreading fake news on this, why bother with such a transparent lie?
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  #678  
Old 01-19-2017, 07:45 AM
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Likewise, Snowden has the added problem of his flight from justice
You forgot to put "'s around justice. Like this: Snowden would surely face a fair trial in the US since the US is all about "justice".
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  #679  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:41 AM
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You forgot to put "'s around justice. Like this: Snowden would surely face a fair trial in the US since the US is all about "justice".
He'd get a fair trial. That the outcome if he did face trial seems so evident is not an example of injustice, nor of any iniquity in our legal system, it is merely an indication of how obvious an example of prima facie this particular case is. Snowden is a candidate for clemency and pardon not due to any question or debate over the legality of what he did (it was clearly illegal), but over the ethics of what he did. A pardon for him would not be an expression of innocence, merely of forgiveness.
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Old 01-19-2017, 08:53 AM
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Would a pardon be even applicable in an actual case of innocence?

Suppose, for instance, that Hillary Clinton gets convicted of murdering Donald Trump, could Trump then pardon her on the grounds that he's still alive?
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