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  #681  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
I'd be willing to bet she's been beaten about that bad at least once while in prison, Dav.

Nothing she leaked was above "secret."

She was a transgender woman living in an all-male prison and seeking gender reassignment surgery that the military has never provided before. She attempted suicide twice, and had to go on a hunger strike to get any treatment at all for her gender dysphoria.

She's already served 7 years in prison, and commutation does not remove the convictions or any of the other felony consequences (no voting, no firearms, etc.). Her sentence was more than 30 years longer than the next longest sentence ever set down for the crimes she was convicted of.

And while we know now that Assange is a Russian puppet, that was not necessarily the case in 2009 when Manning leaked the documents- and she only went to wikileaks because the American press was unwilling to accept what information she offered.

This was mercy, and I have no problem with it.
I'm actually more pissed off at the adjudicator that granted her clearance. There were numerous red flags that should have prevented the clearance from being approved but they went ahead and gave her one anyway. That person should have been fired but they weren't. Hell, they basically got a slap on the wrist.

Snowden would have been a bit more difficult to predict but there were massive indicators that Manning wasn't stable enough for a clearance.

Massive failure by DoDCAF at Meade on that one.
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  #682  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
You forgot to put "'s around justice. Like this: Snowden would surely face a fair trial in the US since the US is all about "justice".
He openly committed espionage and then has exacerbated it since then by residing in Russia and being debriefed numerous times by Russian intelligence and also maintaining a public voice that is anti-American.

He's guilty as hell...more so since he was a clearance holder at a very high level. He knew what he was doing was illegal and he knew that his actions after the fact massively aggravated the initial incident of so-called whistle-blowing.

So, it'd be justice under the statutes but he doesn't have a chance in hell at a not guilty verdict.
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  #683  
Old 01-19-2017, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Would a pardon be even applicable in an actual case of innocence?

Suppose, for instance, that Hillary Clinton gets convicted of murdering Donald Trump, could Trump then pardon her on the grounds that he's still alive?
Accepting a Presidential pardon is an admission of guilt...Hell, even Nixon had to be talked into it because of that caveat.
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  #684  
Old 01-19-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
He openly committed espionage and then has exacerbated it since then by residing in Russia and being debriefed numerous times by Russian intelligence and also maintaining a public voice that is anti-American.

He's guilty as hell...more so since he was a clearance holder at a very high level. He knew what he was doing was illegal and he knew that his actions after the fact massively aggravated the initial incident of so-called whistle-blowing.

So, it'd be justice under the statutes but he doesn't have a chance in hell at a not guilty verdict.
Yeah. Much better to leave the NSA, and whoever else wants to, to spy on your whole country and most of the rest of the world.

Not that the US is even bothering to pretend anymore, but any country punishing whistleblowers instead of protecting them has given up on being anywhere close to a democracy.
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  #685  
Old 01-19-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Yeah. Much better to leave the NSA, and whoever else wants to, to spy on your whole country and most of the rest of the world.

Not that the US is even bothering to pretend anymore, but any country punishing whistleblowers instead of protecting them has given up on being anywhere close to a democracy.
He fled to a hostile country...that's the major issue I have with his actions at this point. Had he stayed and faced the music so to speak, he'd likely be looking at a commuted sentence like Manning is right now at worst.

His actions went well beyond pure whistleblowing so he shouldn't get a free pass for them.
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"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

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  #686  
Old 01-19-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Yeah. Much better to leave the NSA, and whoever else wants to, to spy on your whole country and most of the rest of the world.

Not that the US is even bothering to pretend anymore, but any country punishing whistleblowers instead of protecting them has given up on being anywhere close to a democracy.
The NSA's job is to conduct surveillance and espionage. If he didn't want to be a spy, he shouldn't have taken the job, nor gotten that security clearance.

There is a bit of a grey area with both him and Manning due to this issue of whether they were traitors, or whistleblowers, or both. Where one falls in that assessment obviously is at least in part dependent on whether one thinks that what the government was doing was really wrong, or just potentially embarrassing. The two are not the same. The metadata surveillance done by the NSA was of questionable efficacy, but it wasn't nefarious. Not even when conducted on citizens. When on foreigners even less so. It is, however, also a privacy issue, and a matter over which there is obviously some benefit in bringing the matter to light, not only to debate whether this intrusion on privacy is justified by the threat, but also if it is effective in combating that threat. Is that disclosure however enough to offset his clear, and intentional, violation of classified material? No. But it is an extenuating circumstance that should be weighed when considering sentence duration, albeit that could only have taken place had he stood trial, and been convicted, which he clearly would have been. Had all that happened, I'd have considered him worthy of at least consideration for commutation or pardon. But only after surrendering to justice, and facing trial, conviction, and sentencing.

Manning is in some ways even more problematic. There strikes me as far less of public benefit (if anything) in her release of all those diplomatic cables. One could make an argument for usefulness in the increased disclosure of the collateral damage, but both were more aimed at creating purely political embarrassment for America. It, much like what Snowden did, reeked more of Assange's goals of embarrassing the West, and America in particular, rather than for any feigned public good. They both just strike me as fools who were used by Putin and Assange.

Last edited by Kimon; 01-19-2017 at 03:31 PM.
  #687  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
He fled to a hostile country...that's the major issue I have with his actions at this point. Had he stayed and faced the music so to speak, he'd likely be looking at a commuted sentence like Manning is right now at worst.

His actions went well beyond pure whistleblowing so he shouldn't get a free pass for them.
I'm sure Manning feels the same way. Prison for 7 years before getting commuted probably feels great...

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
The NSA's job is to conduct surveillance and espionage. If he didn't want to be a spy, he shouldn't have taken the job, nor gotten that security clearance.

There is a bit of a grey area with both him and Manning due to this issue of whether they were traitors, or whistleblowers, or both. Where one falls in that assessment obviously is at least in part dependent on whether one thinks that what the government was doing was really wrong, or just potentially embarrassing. The two are not the same. The metadata surveillance done by the NSA was of questionable efficacy, but it wasn't nefarious. Not even when conducted on citizens. When on foreigners even less so. It is, however, also a privacy issue, and a matter over which there is obviously some benefit in bringing the matter to light, not only to debate whether this intrusion on privacy is justified by the threat, but also if it is effective in combating that threat. Is that disclosure however enough to offset his clear, and intentional, violation of classified material? No. But it is an extenuating circumstance that should be weighed when considering sentence duration, albeit that could only have taken place had he stood trial, and been convicted, which he clearly would have been. Had all that happened, I'd have considered him worthy of at least consideration for commutation or pardon. But only after surrendering to justice, and facing trial, conviction, and sentencing.

Manning is in some ways even more problematic. There strikes me as far less of public benefit (if anything) in her release of all those diplomatic cables. One could make an argument for usefulness in the increased disclosure of the collateral damage, but both were more aimed at creating purely political embarrassment for America. It, much like what Snowden did, reeked more of Assange's goals of embarrassing the West, and America in particular, rather than for any feigned public good. They both just strike me as fools who were used by Putin and Assange.
You are so naive and trusting of your government it's getting embarrasing. What would they have to do for you to lose faith in them? Kill everyone you know, burn down your house and leave you on a deserted island?

Or would that not be nefarious either?
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  #688  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
You are so naive and trusting of your government it's getting embarrasing. What would they have to do for you to lose faith in them? Kill everyone you know, burn down your house and leave you on a deserted island?

Or would that not be nefarious either?
The sentiment is mutual.
  #689  
Old 01-19-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
He fled to a hostile country...that's the major issue I have with his actions at this point. Had he stayed and faced the music so to speak, he'd likely be looking at a commuted sentence like Manning is right now at worst.

His actions went well beyond pure whistleblowing so he shouldn't get a free pass for them.
That's because fleeing to a friendly country would have had him returned in shackles in short order. Fleeing to a neutral country likely would have been similar only with a black bag over his head. The only way he had a hope of remaining out of custody was to flee to a hostile country.

And Dahl has at least the point about 7 years in prison being correct. Your earlier post about being beaten with a belt until they begged for mercy and then being beaten some more could have been a good day.

I don't blame him in the slightest for avoiding "facing the music". As SP said, Manning's sentence being commuted was a mercy. Snowden's life could have been as bad or worse, and there would have been many a proud patriot that would have happily inflicted that torture upon him for his "treason".

7 years of solitary confinement, abuse, humiliation and whatever else they can dream up is well beyond a "free pass" and I totally understand not wanting to deal with it. Hell, I wouldn't want to deal with it for 7 days...probably not even 7 hours.

The martial nature of the documents is somewhat problematic, and I don't have an answer, but there needs to be more protection for whistle blowers.
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  #690  
Old 01-19-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
That's because fleeing to a friendly country would have had him returned in shackles in short order. Fleeing to a neutral country likely would have been similar only with a black bag over his head. The only way he had a hope of remaining out of custody was to flee to a hostile country.

And Dahl has at least the point about 7 years in prison being correct. Your earlier post about being beaten with a belt until they begged for mercy and then being beaten some more could have been a good day.

I don't blame him in the slightest for avoiding "facing the music". As SP said, Manning's sentence being commuted was a mercy. Snowden's life could have been as bad or worse, and there would have been many a proud patriot that would have happily inflicted that torture upon him for his "treason".

7 years of solitary confinement, abuse, humiliation and whatever else they can dream up is well beyond a "free pass" and I totally understand not wanting to deal with it. Hell, I wouldn't want to deal with it for 7 days...probably not even 7 hours.

The martial nature of the documents is somewhat problematic, and I don't have an answer, but there needs to be more protection for whistle blowers.
How many lives were put at risk due to his leaks? How many people were probably outed or even killed thanks to him?

You dont get off free for that sort of action.

He was a clearance holder, he knew what he was doing and he knew the probable consequences.
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  #691  
Old 01-19-2017, 06:24 PM
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That's because fleeing to a friendly country would have had him returned in shackles in short order. Fleeing to a neutral country likely would have been similar only with a black bag over his head. The only way he had a hope of remaining out of custody was to flee to a hostile country.

And Dahl has at least the point about 7 years in prison being correct. Your earlier post about being beaten with a belt until they begged for mercy and then being beaten some more could have been a good day.

I don't blame him in the slightest for avoiding "facing the music". As SP said, Manning's sentence being commuted was a mercy. Snowden's life could have been as bad or worse, and there would have been many a proud patriot that would have happily inflicted that torture upon him for his "treason".

7 years of solitary confinement, abuse, humiliation and whatever else they can dream up is well beyond a "free pass" and I totally understand not wanting to deal with it. Hell, I wouldn't want to deal with it for 7 days...probably not even 7 hours.

The martial nature of the documents is somewhat problematic, and I don't have an answer, but there needs to be more protection for whistle blowers.
Part of the issue I have with Manning, is that in contrast to Snowden, who at least revealed information that was of more public significance, was that what Manning revealed was both less serious, and less carefully thought out.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38674286

This is from a former US Asst Sec of State, Crowley. He resigned in 2011, after making comments that he thought that Manning had been mistreated by the Pentagon.

Quote:
Was Manning a whistleblower? In my view, no.
She had little idea what was in the trove of sensitive and classified documents she provided to Wikileaks and Julian Assange six years ago. She thought that information should be free, but had no ability to evaluate whether the perceived benefit of disclosure outweighed the consequences.
The disclosures generated turbulence in almost every relationship between the United States and its global partners, but thankfully the overall impact was manageable.

That said, her actions placed real people at risk. Lives were permanently upended. Mr Assange has said repeatedly that there is no evidence people were harmed by the disclosures. He's wrong.
Was Manning a traitor? Again, I don't think so.
She was a troubled and naive soldier who should not have graduated from basic training, much less been sent to a war zone. Had the military installed appropriate computer network security within Manning's intelligence unit, she could not have passed such a volume of documents to Wikileaks.

Chelsea Manning thought the American people needed to understand what the war in Iraq looked like.
She could have done that without compromising diplomatic cables, most of which had nothing to do with Iraq.

These systemic failures do not mean she should avoid accountability. Her actions were a serious breach of her duty as a soldier, particularly in a war zone. I believed her prosecution was important and necessary.
My comments questioning Manning's treatment in custody, which instantly dismayed the White House, were made because the harassment and abuse she endured threatened the legitimacy of her prosecution.
The purpose of military justice is to sustain good order and discipline. Her 35-year sentence sent a stern message - if you fail to protect classified information, there will be consequences.
But good order and discipline did not require her to serve the entire sentence.
Built into her sentence was the opportunity for parole. I strongly believed the military should release her at the first opportunity. An all-male military prison is not a proper environment for someone going through a gender transition.
President Obama obviously accelerated that timetable. I believe his action represents an appropriate balance of justice and compassion.
I don't think that any of us, even those who had problems with the decision to commute the sentence (Excepting perhaps Southpaw and Dahlia. The former apparently viewing the decision as having no merit. And the latter? I'm not really sure what to make of Dahlia's odd reductio ad absurdum. Is it just trolling? Is he an anarchist who is unwilling to see any merit in intel gathering? Is he brainwashed, and still thinks that Assange and Wikileaks are noble and well-intentioned?), will really find much to disagree with in the above. What Manning did was illegal and stupid, and considering the extenuating circumstances, far from simple as to what to do, or whether it was right to commute her sentence. Definitely an issue that is worthy of debate, and about which one can hardly be surprised to see such varied reactions, even if some of those were just random acts of trolling.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:24 PM
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There should be some form of protection for whistle blowers though. Instead of there's systematic attempts to cover up wrong doing, at all levels and it extends beyond the military.

You think anyone that sees anything going wrong is going to "step out of line" now after they've seen what happens? That's my problem. I'm ok with Manning's sentence being commuting and I see no reason for Snowden to turn himself in just so he can be abused and tortured in some twisted sense of justice. Perhaps I'm being too generous, who knows, but there should be some way for actual wrong doing to be reported to the authorities and for the whistle blowers not to be crucified for doing what's right.
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  #693  
Old 01-19-2017, 10:23 PM
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There should be some form of protection for whistle blowers though. Instead of there's systematic attempts to cover up wrong doing, at all levels and it extends beyond the military.

You think anyone that sees anything going wrong is going to "step out of line" now after they've seen what happens? That's my problem. I'm ok with Manning's sentence being commuting and I see no reason for Snowden to turn himself in just so he can be abused and tortured in some twisted sense of justice. Perhaps I'm being too generous, who knows, but there should be some way for actual wrong doing to be reported to the authorities and for the whistle blowers not to be crucified for doing what's right.
There are laws protecting whistleblowers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistl...Protection_Act

Obama issued an executive order to extend this to certain forms of whistleblowing in the sphere of classified information in 2012:

Quote:
President Barack Obama issued Presidential Policy Directive 19 (PPD-19), entitled "Protecting Whistleblowers with Access to Classified Information". According to the law signed by Obama on October 10, 2012, it is written that "this Presidential Policy Directive ensures that employees (1) serving in the Intelligence Community or (2) who are eligible for access to classified information can effectively report waste, fraud, and abuse while protecting classified national security information. It prohibits retaliation against employees for reporting waste, fraud, and abuse.[7]

However, according to a report that the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs submitted to accompany S. 743, "the federal whistleblowers have seen their protections diminish in recent years, largely as a result of a series of decisions by the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, which has exclusive jurisdiction over many cases brought under the Whistleblower Protection Act (WPA). Specifically, the Federal Circuit has wrongly accorded a narrow definition to the type of disclosure that qualifies for whistleblower protection. Additionally, the lack of remedies under current law for most whistleblowers in the intelligence community and for whistleblowers who face retaliation in the form of withdrawal of the employee's security clearance leaves unprotected those who are in a position to disclose wrongdoing that directly affects our national security."[8] S. 743 would address these problems by restoring the original congressional intent of the WPA to adequately protect whistleblowers, by strengthening the WPA, and by creating new whistleblower protections for intelligence employees and new protections for employees whose security clearance is withdrawn in retaliation for having made legitimate whistleblower disclosures.[9] S. 743 ultimately became Pub.L. 112-199 (S.Rep. 112-155).
Here is the wikipedia page detailing the wider spectrum of how we have handled whistleblowing over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistl..._United_States

We tend to view whistleblowing differently depending on both the industry and the material, namely its significance in terms of public safety or public interest. Whether the material released by either (or both) Snowden or Manning was really an act of public good, i.e. whistleblowing, or merely an act of violation of trust of their security clearance, i.e. treason, is obviously part of the debate here. Whistleblowing for the sake of revealing matters for the safeguarding of public health, or uncovering corruption will obviously receive wider support for protection, and be more universally viewed as courageous and done for the public good. There is also the problem of whom they handed the material to. When you hand material over to a clear enemy, or flee into the arms of a clear enemy, it becomes far more difficult to engender sympathy and condonation of one's actions.
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Old 01-20-2017, 03:12 AM
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Is he brainwashed, and still thinks that Assange and Wikileaks are noble and well-intentioned?
Heh. I guess I should put all my trust in the US government instead. Since they are clearly working to better the world.

Hell. Can't make the world a better place without drone-bombing civilians, torturing innocent people, mass surveillance, destablizing several countries for that sweet, sweet oil, spying on "allies" and cracking some eggs.

Ever considered that Wikileaks are focusing so much on the US because you are by far the worst Western country when it comes to doing shitty things?

It might come as a shock, but it's possible to run a country without pissing all over your own constitution and most basic human rights. You should try it some time and see if you become a bit more popular.
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Old 01-20-2017, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
How many lives were put at risk due to his leaks? How many people were probably outed or even killed thanks to him?

You dont get off free for that sort of action.

He was a clearance holder, he knew what he was doing and he knew the probable consequences.
Before taking his information abroad, he first did what he technically should have done: pass his concerns up the ladder of responsibility and give his superiors the chance to fix the faults. Those superiors decided not to bother doing anything of the kind. Why aren't they being prosecuted for dereliction of duty? Why aren't they prosecuted as being involved in the treason?

There is a very simple answer, but one that many people don't like: the NSA is a criminal organisation, the US government knows that and is okay with it. Given that fact, what, apart from letting the crimes continue on and on and on, choice did Snowden have?
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Old 01-20-2017, 09:50 AM
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The best part of this is that he blew the whistle on something that was already public knowledge. There were newspaper articles out in 2006 about NSA's meta-collection efforts.

It was hardly ever a real secret so he "blew the whistle" on nothing.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:27 PM
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I also think Snowden is a traitor. If there is one thing I can applaud Obama for, it's not giving in to his Snowden's demands. Sure, he revealed government overreach, but I think most people have known, or had an idea, that the government is overstepping it's Fourth Amendment limitations, especially after 9/11. Snowden was a disgruntled employee who wanted the attention.
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Old 01-20-2017, 02:28 PM
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I also think Snowden is a traitor. If there is one thing I can applaud Obama for, it's not giving in to his Snowden's demands. Sure, he revealed government overreach, but I think most people have known, or had an idea, that the government is overstepping it's Fourth Amendment limitations, especially after 9/11. Snowden was a disgruntled employee who wanted the attention.
As I said in an earlier post, newspapers were reporting on that meta-collection effort as far back as 2006.
http://boingboing.net/2006/04/12/att...arrantles.html

Here's just 1 of the hundreds of articles about it that were published at the time. Everyone knew and nobody cared.

Also, the gov't, rightly or wrongly, has long ignored the 4th amendment in the name of "national security". This is hardly a new phenomenon.
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Old 01-20-2017, 05:56 PM
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Clearly no one cared seeing as people all over the world woke up and started protesting against surveillance...

And not like a shitload of dodgy resolutions and laws were killed off in Europe by Snowden's reveals. Without Snowden most European countries would look like the UK now.

And proving that the US was spying on allies. Definitely uninteresting to everyone.
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:26 AM
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Clearly no one cared seeing as people all over the world woke up and started protesting against surveillance...

And not like a shitload of dodgy resolutions and laws were killed off in Europe by Snowden's reveals. Without Snowden most European countries would look like the UK now.

And proving that the US was spying on allies. Definitely uninteresting to everyone.
Yes, because we're the only country to spy on our friends...Are you daft? Every country spies on everyone regardless of alliances or treaties.

And yes, it was public knowledge...all Snowden did was endanger lives and get people killed.
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