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  #701  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
... get people killed.
Pics or it didn't happen.

Bonus points if you can prove that US forces haven't killed even more innocent people in that same time.
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  #702  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Pics or it didn't happen.

Bonus points if you can prove that US forces haven't killed even more innocent people in that same time.


Everyone killed by US Forces were enemies of the state and therefore not innocent.
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  #703  
Old 01-21-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Pics or it didn't happen.

Bonus points if you can prove that US forces haven't killed even more innocent people in that same time.
I get the animosity to things like drone strikes, but this hostility towards the collection of metadata, and even assertion that we might somehow be better off without the NSA and CIA is quite another matter. Arguing against metadata strikes me as similar to the gun control debate. I want background checks for guns. I want a national registry so we can keep track of how many guns you have. If you have one gun, okay. If you have a stockpile, time to keep a closer watch on you, and what you're doing. If you make the occasional call to your sister in Pakistan, no big deal. But if your call history starts raising too many red flags? If you have traveled to Turkey and then disappeared for a few months (such as maybe into Syria) and then popped back up in Europe, Canada, or America?

There needs to be some bridge, some middle ground, between prudence and just burying our heads in the sand in the name of avoiding any sense of guilt over religious profiling.

Last edited by Kimon; 01-21-2017 at 12:36 PM.
  #704  
Old 01-22-2017, 03:24 AM
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And let the government also start opening snail mail, to see what everyone is writing to everyone else while you're at it.
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  #705  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
And let the government also start opening snail mail, to see what everyone is writing to everyone else while you're at it.
That is a false equivalency, Gonzo. What they were doing would have been akin to tracking to whom your mail was addressed, how often you were sending it, and how much it weighed. If there are warning signs to be observed, ignoring them is imprudent, especially when the type of observation being done is discreet and unobtrusive. This is less hyperbolic obviously than Dahlia equating this collection to murdering civilians and torture, but it is still hyperbole. This just isn't that big of a deal. Could it be misused? Sure. And certainly, one has instantly less trust in the present administration than in the one that preceded it. Likewise, one obviously hopes that the NSA and CIA manage to remain apolitical going forward.

On that point, the relationship between Trump and the spy agencies seems downright hostile at present. So hopefully they will continue to resist any attempt to be simply used as political hatchet men for Trump, in a way that unfortunately the FBI (especially under J Edgar Hoover, and to a certain extent more recently with Comey) has at times been. Nonetheless, one hardly expected a long-serving CIA man (working under both Bushes, Clinton, and Obama), outgoing Director Brennan, to be so openly contemptuous of the president.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/21/politi...so-behind-you/

It will be interesting to see what direction the agency takes under Pompeo once he is confirmed. He is unfortunately not a career intel man like Brennan, but from the Tea Party wing of the republicans, which is hardly a good sign. He however doesn't seem to have any questionable connections to Putin. We'll have to see. Not a great selection, but perhaps not disastrous either.
  #706  
Old 01-22-2017, 10:49 AM
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That is a false equivalency, Gonzo. What they were doing would have been akin to tracking to whom your mail was addressed, how often you were sending it, and how much it weighed. If there are warning signs to be observed, ignoring them is imprudent, especially when the type of observation being done is discreet and unobtrusive.
That's a good defence of the former Stasi. However, I do not think it is good enough; I still don't want a bunch of bureaucrats to have the authority to decide what is and isn't "suspicious". I don't like how our societies become what we said was so bad about the former Warshau Pact nations.
After all, if one of those bureaucrats (or, more likely, a computer program he's running) flags you as suspicious, then your phone would be tapped (the mail would be opened), and you would only maybe hear about that if you were put on trial, not if you were targeted with a drone.
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  #707  
Old 01-22-2017, 12:26 PM
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And let the government also start opening snail mail, to see what everyone is writing to everyone else while you're at it.
Constitutionality aside, you really don't think they don't already do that in many cases?
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  #708  
Old 01-22-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Constitutionality aside, you really don't think they don't already do that in many cases?
Or at least email, texting, and facebook. Not so much snail mail, since who amongst us really still uses that much, or gets much actual mail other than junk, or maybe the occasional bill that hasn't yet been converted to electronic or direct deposit. Even there, its more likely your employer than the government, and even then, the govt likely would bother with something so thorough and tedious only if other suspicions led them to feel it prudent to put you under more than just algorithmic surveillance by some computer in utah. If you're really getting bent out of shape over this, you're either likely up to something you shouldn't be, or you're some nut out in the woods surrounded by a few hundred guns prepping to take on the federales if they ever try to tell you to stop scaring your neighbors.
  #709  
Old 01-23-2017, 01:55 AM
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Well. I guess you wont mind the day some NSA/CIA/whatever-analysts share the nudiepics your wife/daughter/husband/whatever send from their phone then.

Hell. Might as well set up webcams in every room and stream constantly.
Not like you have anything to hide right?

Not like Uncle Sam, or the corporations that pay his bills, would ever misuse data.

And if you think metadata can't be used against you, you're plain stupid:
https://phys.org/news/2016-05-scient...sensitive.html
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  #710  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:26 AM
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From that link:
Quote:
"If we're going to pick a sweet spot as society, where we want the privacy vs. security tradeoff to lie, it's important to understand the implications of the polices that we have," Mutchler said. "In this paper, we have empirical data, which I think will help people make informed decisions."
But a large part of the problem is that it is legally impossible to make informed decisions about this, because the secret police can keep everything they do secret, and thus no one has a clue what they are or aren't up to nor how (in-)effective those actions are.

If the NSA and CIA have nothing to hide, then they should open up all their records. If they are doing wrong, however, then they should not get government pay checks for their nefarious activities. It is just the "if you have done nothing wrong then you haven't got anything to hide" argument applied to those who use that argument to defend invasions of privacy. I'm sure you all see how ridiculous it is to use such an argument to say that secret services shouldn't have any secrets, but if you do allow them that then there's no reason not to extend that same thing to others, is there?
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  #711  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:26 AM
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Come on, Gonzo. Everyone knows that the NSA and CIA only employ nice, upstanding citizens that would never do anything wrong. And that they would never do anything bad to innocent people.
All you need to do is trust your friendly overlords and not think about all these complicated issues.
I'm sure Kimon can show you how it's done.
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  #712  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
Well. I guess you wont mind the day some NSA/CIA/whatever-analysts share the nudiepics your wife/daughter/husband/whatever send from their phone then.

Hell. Might as well set up webcams in every room and stream constantly.
Not like you have anything to hide right?

Not like Uncle Sam, or the corporations that pay his bills, would ever misuse data.

And if you think metadata can't be used against you, you're plain stupid:
https://phys.org/news/2016-05-scient...sensitive.html
Sending and storing nude pics on a phone is idiotic already.

As for the metadata, you have far more to fear on this from facebook than from the NSA. Dahlia, unless you are trying to hide a pedophilia addiction, or some other illegal activity, there is little harm in a govt computer collecting data tracking you. This is already done on a far more obvious and intrusive level already for commercial concerns by your smartphone and facebook to inundate you with advertising (and in the case of facebook, perhaps also inundate you with fake news). When you have already allowed social media to take far more, getting so worked up over the govt trying to use similar material to sift out terrorists is bizarre.
  #713  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Sending and storing nude pics on a phone is idiotic already.
Great argument. You did something stupid, so away with your human rights...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
As for the metadata, you have far more to fear on this from facebook than from the NSA.
I choose what information I give Facebook. NSA and their ilk just take whatever they can get.

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Dahlia, unless you are trying to hide a pedophilia addiction, or some other illegal activity, there is little harm in a govt computer collecting data tracking you.
Yeah, because only pedophiles want some privacy.

And also. Stasi.

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
This is already done on a far more obvious and intrusive level already for commercial concerns by your smartphone and facebook to inundate you with advertising (and in the case of facebook, perhaps also inundate you with fake news).
I use adblock and I know how to check a source.

Also, are you seriously equating getting targeted adverts with 24/7 control over where you go and who you talk to?

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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
When you have already allowed social media to take far more, getting so worked up over the govt trying to use similar material to sift out terrorists is bizarre.
Facebook is less likely to send drones to bomb me than the US government...

And again. That whole thing about choice.
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  #714  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:09 AM
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I use adblock and I know how to check a source.
LOLOLOLOLOL

Um, Adblock doesn't prevent the collection aspect of it, it just prevents you from seeing it. Trust me, they're still collecting all the data from everything you ever look at online. Whether its Google or Facebook, etc etc etc...every website you ever visit collects a ton of information from you and then either sells it or keeps a reference of it because you never know.

So...unless you're using some sort of military grade encryption with multiple proxies (I'm guessing you aren't), they have it all.
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  #715  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
I choose what information I give Facebook. NSA and their ilk just take whatever they can get...Also, are you seriously equating getting targeted adverts with 24/7 control over where you go and who you talk to?
Where do you think the NSA was getting most of its information for this program from? Phone records shared by your phone provider, internet records shared by your internet provider, and facebook. You're already being tracked by numerous corporations for far less societally beneficial reasons than those for which the govt is sifting through the exact same material that you also have handed over for commericial purposes.

As for your fixation with drones. You do not live in a warzone. No drone would ever target you in Norway, even if you are suspected of being a terrorist. If for some reason you should enter a warzone, and are suspected of being a terrorist, then perhaps you may face that risk, until then, it's time to take off the tinfoil hat.
  #716  
Old 01-23-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
LOLOLOLOLOL

Um, Adblock doesn't prevent the collection aspect of it, it just prevents you from seeing it. Trust me, they're still collecting all the data from everything you ever look at online. Whether its Google or Facebook, etc etc etc...every website you ever visit collects a ton of information from you and then either sells it or keeps a reference of it because you never know.

So...unless you're using some sort of military grade encryption with multiple proxies (I'm guessing you aren't), they have it all.
LOLOLOLOLOL. Not my point at all.

My point was that they're not getting much out of it since I don't see the ads they want to show. They're not getting views from me either.

Barring some Bond-villain-esque plan from Zuckerberg I know what he wants my information for. And again. Anything FB gets from me is my choice. Not corrupt-asshole-agent #323411's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Where do you think the NSA was getting most of its information for this program from? Phone records shared by your phone provider, internet records shared by your internet provider, and facebook. You're already being tracked by numerous corporations for far less societally beneficial reasons than those for which the govt is sifting through the exact same material that you also have handed over for commericial purposes.
Unlike you Americans I don't live in Airstrip One yet, so my phone and Internet records can't be shared except for with the Police if I'm a suspect in a crime. They also have to get approval to get them, and they're deleted after a few months.

EDIT: of course they(read: the police, our versions of NSA/CIA etc) want to change this for the worse, but unlike you we like our human rights, so we're actively trying(and succeding so far) in stopping them from doing that.

Now there could always be corrupt employees and shady deals, but that's like saying corrupt bank workers exist, so all banks should open their vaults and let anyone take what they want.

Already explained FB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
As for your fixation with drones. You do not live in a warzone. No drone would ever target you in Norway, even if you are suspected of being a terrorist. If for some reason you should enter a warzone, and are suspected of being a terrorist, then perhaps you may face that risk, until then, it's time to take off the tinfoil hat.
I know I wont get bombed. But what if I was a Pakistani journalist who'd never blown anyone up, and never considered it, but I kept exposing how many civilians the US are murdering.

Maybe I even spread some Russian propaganda. Or worked with Wikileaks.

I could awfully fast become part of the nice statistic of innocents slaughtered by you (the US, not you specifically). Being able to pinpoint my location by using metadata would be awfully convenient then.
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  #717  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DahLliA View Post
LOLOLOLOLOL. Not my point at all.

My point was that they're not getting much out of it since I don't see the ads they want to show. They're not getting views from me either.

Barring some Bond-villain-esque plan from Zuckerberg I know what he wants my information for. And again. Anything FB gets from me is my choice. Not corrupt-asshole-agent #323411's.



Unlike you Americans I don't live in Airstrip One yet, so my phone and Internet records can't be shared except for with the Police if I'm a suspect in a crime. They also have to get approval to get them, and they're deleted after a few months.

EDIT: of course they(read: the police, our versions of NSA/CIA etc) want to change this for the worse, but unlike you we like our human rights, so we're actively trying(and succeding so far) in stopping them from doing that.

Now there could always be corrupt employees and shady deals, but that's like saying corrupt bank workers exist, so all banks should open their vaults and let anyone take what they want.

Already explained FB.



I know I wont get bombed. But what if I was a Pakistani journalist who'd never blown anyone up, and never considered it, but I kept exposing how many civilians the US are murdering.

Maybe I even spread some Russian propaganda. Or worked with Wikileaks.

I could awfully fast become part of the nice statistic of innocents slaughtered by you (the US, not you specifically). Being able to pinpoint my location by using metadata would be awfully convenient then.
This is far beyond even the level of paranoia that I was referencing when I mentioned tinfoil in my previous post. Perhaps you should at least remember just to wear the tinfoil, and stop ingesting it.
  #718  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:52 PM
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This is far beyond even the level of paranoia that I was referencing when I mentioned tinfoil in my previous post. Perhaps you should at least remember just to wear the tinfoil, and stop ingesting it.
Here. Bet this will feel strangely familiar: https://namsang.itch.io/thisisfine
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  #719  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:44 PM
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While y'all are talking to Dahlia for no discernible purpose other than to enable his masturbatory derailment of the thread, shit is happening.

Like Trump declaring basically open war on the press, and the Orwellian overtones (and I do not use that term lightly) of every media interaction thus far.

He's brought paid interns to cheer at speeches at the CIA, destroyed the credibility of his press secretary by sending him out to lie directly to the White House press corps, threaten them, and then the creation of "Alternative fact" by Conway, all within the span of 2 days.
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post


While y'all are talking to Dahlia for no discernible purpose other than to enable his masturbatory derailment of the thread, shit is happening.

Like Trump declaring basically open war on the press, and the Orwellian overtones (and I do not use that term lightly) of every media interaction thus far.

He's brought paid interns to cheer at speeches at the CIA, destroyed the credibility of his press secretary by sending him out to lie directly to the White House press corps, threaten them, and then the creation of "Alternative fact" by Conway, all within the span of 2 days.
If the argument was could America start becoming as bad as things currently are in Turkey, Iran, and Russia, then perhaps Dahlia would have had a point. But we just had 250,000 people march in open defiance of his presidency over the weekend just in my city. None of them were victims of a drone-strafing. None of them disappeared into gulags for re-education. Likewise no journalists disappeared, nor died under mysterious circumstances. No teachers, not even myself, were arrested as dangerous supporters of the opposition. Do these kinds of things happen elsewhere? Yes. That is a description of Turkey under Erdogan. Russia under Putin. Iran under the Mullahs. Not of America under Obama. Not even America under the Bushes and Clintons. We are not the boogey man hiding in your closet, nor under your bed.
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