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  #721  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
http://p.fod4.com/p/media/08b93f0123...JH0Najf_j8.gif

While y'all are talking to Dahlia for no discernible purpose other than to enable his masturbatory derailment of the thread, shit is happening.

Like Trump declaring basically open war on the press, and the Orwellian overtones (and I do not use that term lightly) of every media interaction thus far.

He's brought paid interns to cheer at speeches at the CIA, destroyed the credibility of his press secretary by sending him out to lie directly to the White House press corps, threaten them, and then the creation of "Alternative fact" by Conway, all within the span of 2 days.
That isn't what happened at all. Alternate facts say that Trump is loved by everyone except the commu-liberal-pinky-crypto-fascist-media-liberals who are only hate Trump because he's going to free 'Merica! from Washington's lies.
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  #722  
Old 01-24-2017, 04:31 AM
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If the argument was could America start becoming as bad as things currently are in Turkey, Iran, and Russia, then perhaps Dahlia would have had a point. But we just had 250,000 people march in open defiance of his presidency over the weekend just in my city. None of them were victims of a drone-strafing. None of them disappeared into gulags for re-education. Likewise no journalists disappeared, nor died under mysterious circumstances. No teachers, not even myself, were arrested as dangerous supporters of the opposition. Do these kinds of things happen elsewhere? Yes. That is a description of Turkey under Erdogan. Russia under Putin. Iran under the Mullahs. Not of America under Obama. Not even America under the Bushes and Clintons. We are not the boogey man hiding in your closet, nor under your bed.
Yet.

Remember: Erdogan also started out as a democratically elected politician. His plans and statements at the time were even less threatening than Trump's are right now.

And, finally: there have been very few times in the last five hundred years when "not as bad as Russia" was some kind of positive endorsement. If that is the best one can say about one's country, then it is time and past time for improving things rather than complacency.
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  #723  
Old 01-24-2017, 07:56 AM
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Yet.

Remember: Erdogan also started out as a democratically elected politician. His plans and statements at the time were even less threatening than Trump's are right now.

And, finally: there have been very few times in the last five hundred years when "not as bad as Russia" was some kind of positive endorsement. If that is the best one can say about one's country, then it is time and past time for improving things rather than complacency.
Unless you really think that Obama was evil (which apparently is what Dahlia thinks), then you are missing the point. This is the dichotomy of American politics. Good under the dems, bad under the republicans. Unfortunately, Trump is even worse than a typical republican, and more dangerous, because of his populism, and because of his lack of political experience. But the election just occurred. Any real shift back towards the dems will have to wait 2 years for congress, and 4 for the executive. Quite a bit longer for the court...
  #724  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:12 AM
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Unless you really think that Obama was evil (which apparently is what Dahlia thinks), then you are missing the point. This is the dichotomy of American politics. Good under the dems, bad under the republicans. Unfortunately, Trump is even worse than a typical republican, and more dangerous, because of his populism, and because of his lack of political experience. But the election just occurred. Any real shift back towards the dems will have to wait 2 years for congress, and 4 for the executive. Quite a bit longer for the court...
I actually think you're being a bit too optimistic to be honest. I think Trump being elected is a major red flag and a definite canary in the coal mine for the end of American democracy long-term. It was already going down hill long before Trump but you'd have to be blind to not see that our nation is now officially on the decline just like the Brits were 100 years ago. We had our century and now we're doing the same thing as every other major power in history has done whether its Britain in the lead up and aftermath of WWI or Rome in the 3rd century.

It's not going to get better, we're not going to rebound, we're not going to be the dominant power for that much longer. This current Administration is merely going to accelerate that decline with their stupidity.
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  #725  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Unless you really think that Obama was evil (which apparently is what Dahlia thinks), then you are missing the point. This is the dichotomy of American politics. Good under the dems, bad under the republicans. Unfortunately, Trump is even worse than a typical republican, and more dangerous, because of his populism, and because of his lack of political experience. But the election just occurred. Any real shift back towards the dems will have to wait 2 years for congress, and 4 for the executive. Quite a bit longer for the court...
I think that Obama's decision not to prosecute those responsible for Gitmo was evil. Not as evil as the decision to set up that concentration camp in the first place, but evil nonetheless.

I would qualify much of US politics as "bad under the Dems, worse under the Reps". Does that answer your question?
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  #726  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:47 AM
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I actually think you're being a bit too optimistic to be honest. I think Trump being elected is a major red flag and a definite canary in the coal mine for the end of American democracy long-term. It was already going down hill long before Trump but you'd have to be blind to not see that our nation is now officially on the decline just like the Brits were 100 years ago. We had our century and now we're doing the same thing as every other major power in history has done whether its Britain in the lead up and aftermath of WWI or Rome in the 3rd century.

It's not going to get better, we're not going to rebound, we're not going to be the dominant power for that much longer. This current Administration is merely going to accelerate that decline with their stupidity.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this, I just meant we aren't facing an inevitable slide into dictatorship and the death throes of the republic. But death throes of empire? Yeah, definitely. The same would essentially have been true even with Bernie or Hillary as president, only drastically accelerated due to Trump's incompetence. Some of the Europeans will doubtless see our twilight of empire as a good thing, but considering that it means the rise of Russia and China, they may in retrospect come to appreciate how benevolent our hegemony in reality was.
  #727  
Old 01-24-2017, 02:42 PM
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Yeah, I definitely agree with this, I just meant we aren't facing an inevitable slide into dictatorship and the death throes of the republic. But death throes of empire? Yeah, definitely. The same would essentially have been true even with Bernie or Hillary as president, only drastically accelerated due to Trump's incompetence. Some of the Europeans will doubtless see our twilight of empire as a good thing, but considering that it means the rise of Russia and China, they may in retrospect come to appreciate how benevolent our hegemony in reality was.
Germany and Japan are the 3rd and 4th largest economies in the world...perhaps they could team up to keep the peace. They could be the two wheels that drive the world economy...connected only by an axle. Perhaps we could come up with a clever name to call them if and when this happens.
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  #728  
Old 01-24-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I think that Obama's decision not to prosecute those responsible for Gitmo was evil. Not as evil as the decision to set up that concentration camp in the first place, but evil nonetheless.

I would qualify much of US politics as "bad under the Dems, worse under the Reps". Does that answer your question?
He couldn't even convince a friendly Congress at the beginning of his term to shut the damn place down...prosecuting those responsible for it was never going to happen.

I would agree, though, that Gitmo is and will forever be a lasting stain on the United States as a country. Its just as bad as the WWII internment camps were for violating human rights.
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  #729  
Old 01-26-2017, 01:55 PM
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Not that many will care, but I work very closely with Native Americans in my profession, and Trump kicked off his presidency with A: the Dakota Access Pipeline and B: hanging a portrait of Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office.

That's a pretty clear message to them, and not a polite one. Tribal sovereignty may be a thing of the past.
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  #730  
Old 01-26-2017, 02:44 PM
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Not that many will care, but I work very closely with Native Americans in my profession, and Trump kicked off his presidency with A: the Dakota Access Pipeline and B: hanging a portrait of Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office.

That's a pretty clear message to them, and not a polite one. Tribal sovereignty may be a thing of the past.
I hadn't heard about the Jackson portrait. What a giant middle finger to the Tribes.

In general, Trump is behaving exactly like someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That's a great quality to have as a sitting President.

In other news, Mexico's President cancelled his visit and then a couple hours later Trump's people came out saying "No, we broke up with them!!!!"

And the entire senior staff at State Dept resigned en masse yesterday and now Trump's people are saying "Nuh-uh, we fired you!!!"

What a fucking train wreck of a Presidency and we're not even a week into it.
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  #731  
Old 01-27-2017, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I hadn't heard about the Jackson portrait. What a giant middle finger to the Tribes.

In general, Trump is behaving exactly like someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That's a great quality to have as a sitting President.

In other news, Mexico's President cancelled his visit and then a couple hours later Trump's people came out saying "No, we broke up with them!!!!"

And the entire senior staff at State Dept resigned en masse yesterday and now Trump's people are saying "Nuh-uh, we fired you!!!"

What a fucking train wreck of a Presidency and we're not even a week into it.
The leaked tapes from a GOP meeting yesterday is highlighting the problem they have with repealing the ACA...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.4b7f3ed237fa

At least this shows there is some level of concern for what will happen to Medicare and Medicaid, not to mention a desire to attempt to ensure that something is in place so that few are truly screwed by their repeal. Unfortunately, and unsurprisingly, that same degree of caution and anxiety seems lacking with Trump, which is likely why this was leaked.

What ends up actually happening here will be interesting, as will whether Trump really does resort to imposing a 30% tariff on Mexican imports to fund his idiotic wall. The Mexicans already seem to be threatening that they may open the floodgates and let refugees from Central America (from El Salvador for example) start pouring into Texas. So we may see this result in both increased costs for consumers and increased illegal immigration.

Last edited by Kimon; 01-27-2017 at 06:23 PM.
  #732  
Old 01-29-2017, 06:23 AM
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If you're really getting bent out of shape over this, you're either likely up to something you shouldn't be, or you're some nut out in the woods surrounded by a few hundred guns prepping to take on the federales if they ever try to tell you to stop scaring your neighbors.
Or, you know, you're a Muslim terrified that President Trump will use "metadata" to know what your religious affiliation is and put you on a list, and then either deport you or force you into a "temporary" internment camp.

I can't believe we're still having arguments that state that only nefarious people can want privacy. We just went through pages of discussion on Russian hacking, and blackmail material on Trump. The demand for internet privacy is not a desperate reaction to conceal crimes. It is a core principle that any democracy worth its name should work very hard to protect.

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As for the metadata, you have far more to fear on this from facebook than from the NSA.
This is absolutely not true. For one thing, with Facebook it is a commercial transaction. They want my info to show me ads. While I'm all for increased privacy in those kind of situations too, in no way does a private company having access to my data compare to the government having such access. The government's ability to interfere in my life is quite broad enough without me having to have my online life constantly spied upon.

Another point to consider is that while you may feel okay because America doesn't spy quite as intrusively on American citizens, the depth of these programs for foreign nationals is absolutely devastating to long term prospects for a free and open internet. Citizens of countries that are not America use American products like Google and Facebook with no knowledge (prior to Snowden's leaks) that their privacy is being invaded by America. You cannot possibly argue that their security is at the heart of America's decision to spy on them.

In such a circumstance, it is quite reasonable for other nations to demand a balkanization of the internet, which will have quite devastating consequences. That America's military complex didn't think about these consequences before sticking their giant noses into the internet is just yet another instance of American exceptionalism and imperialism at play.

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If the argument was could America start becoming as bad as things currently are in Turkey, Iran, and Russia, then perhaps Dahlia would have had a point. But we just had 250,000 people march in open defiance of his presidency over the weekend just in my city. None of them were victims of a drone-strafing. None of them disappeared into gulags for re-education. Likewise no journalists disappeared, nor died under mysterious circumstances. No teachers, not even myself, were arrested as dangerous supporters of the opposition. Do these kinds of things happen elsewhere? Yes. That is a description of Turkey under Erdogan. Russia under Putin. Iran under the Mullahs. Not of America under Obama. Not even America under the Bushes and Clintons. We are not the boogey man hiding in your closet, nor under your bed.
I marched that day too, but let's not forget that journalists were arrested the day before for covering the protests during the inauguration. None of those journalists actually participated in any violence. They were arrested for being in the vicinity. If you think that isn't a major sign of how bad things are, maybe just look at the Muslim ban and the utter inhumanity and moral depravity that displays.
  #733  
Old 01-29-2017, 06:52 AM
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I marched that day too, but let's not forget that journalists were arrested the day before for covering the protests during the inauguration.
Of course, one should always remember that while the 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of the press, it does not guarantee freedom of the journalist. So arresting them on suspicion of "intending to print unwanted opinions" isn't actually against the US Constitution, is it?
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  #734  
Old 01-29-2017, 11:19 AM
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Or, you know, you're a Muslim terrified that President Trump will use "metadata" to know what your religious affiliation is and put you on a list, and then either deport you or force you into a "temporary" internment camp.
The program ended in 2015. If it is reinitiated, then we should have a debate over whether the new administration can be trusted as much as the last. Which it can't.

Quote:
I can't believe we're still having arguments that state that only nefarious people can want privacy. We just went through pages of discussion on Russian hacking, and blackmail material on Trump. The demand for internet privacy is not a desperate reaction to conceal crimes. It is a core principle that any democracy worth its name should work very hard to protect.
We obviously just won't see eye to eye on this one. I'm of the opinion that if you've already ceded your privacy here to verizon, at&t, facebook, etc, that you've ceded your privacy.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:09 PM
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This isn't a particularly good sign...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241

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President Donald Trump is reshuffling the US National Security Council (NSC), downgrading the military chiefs of staff and giving a regular seat to his chief strategist Steve Bannon.
Quote:
The director of national intelligence and the joint chiefs will attend when discussions pertain to their areas.
Under previous administrations, the director and joint chiefs attended all meetings of the NSC's inner circle, the principals' committee.
So, it will now essentially just be Bannon and Flynn that have his ear on questions of national security. That is rather frightening.
  #736  
Old 01-29-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Of course, one should always remember that while the 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of the press, it does not guarantee freedom of the journalist. So arresting them on suspicion of "intending to print unwanted opinions" isn't actually against the US Constitution, is it?
As far as I'm aware, there's very little distinction in the way courts view this. There were incidents around the Standing Rock protests that showed that the courts tend to have little patience for this kind of interpretation of the First Amendment. Typically, the courts tend to take a very broad view of it.

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The program ended in 2015. If it is reinitiated, then we should have a debate over whether the new administration can be trusted as much as the last. Which it can't.
Exactly how will we know if it is reinstated? Do you really think this administration will discuss it openly?

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We obviously just won't see eye to eye on this one. I'm of the opinion that if you've already ceded your privacy here to verizon, at&t, facebook, etc, that you've ceded your privacy.
No, that makes no sense. By this logic, just because I allowed a guest to come stay at my home and ceded some of my privacy to him, I have automatically also allowed to government to come in? In the past, I may have allowed a secretary/secretarial agency to open my mail. Does this mean I allowed the government to do so?

This argument is logically bizarre, let alone legally unsupportable. The US constitution very clearly recognizes the distinction between a private entity and the US government.
  #737  
Old 01-29-2017, 02:45 PM
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This argument is logically bizarre, let alone legally unsupportable. The US constitution very clearly recognizes the distinction between a private entity and the US government.
Again, getting so worked up over something so insignificant is silly. Either way, I clearly do not care. So if you wish to continue to disagree with me on this point, that's fine.
  #738  
Old 01-29-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Of course, one should always remember that while the 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of the press, it does not guarantee freedom of the journalist. So arresting them on suspicion of "intending to print unwanted opinions" isn't actually against the US Constitution, is it?
Yes, it absolutely is.
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  #739  
Old 01-29-2017, 08:20 PM
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This isn't a particularly good sign...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241

So, it will now essentially just be Bannon and Flynn that have his ear on questions of national security. That is rather frightening.
It's good in a bad way. He's putting his own people into power, which is a very good thing to do when taking over a business. That said, doing it in an existing power structure like a government, it's a good way of offending a bunch of very powerful people who can cause him problems down the line.
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  #740  
Old 01-29-2017, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
That said, doing it in an existing power structure like a government, it's a good way of offending a bunch of very powerful people who can cause him problems down the line.
One could say much the same concerning the frequency of the executive orders, though for the time being the republicans in congress may be content to just let him continue playing king, and to continue handing him more and more rope, and thus let him reap all of the accompanying disgust, while keeping their own hands relatively clean. It is, nonetheless, odd to see so many executive orders when the republicans control both houses of congress. All of these decrees that he has issued this week should, and could, have gone through Congress as normal legislation.
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