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  #1081  
Old 05-15-2017, 10:25 AM
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While the protests tended to get out of hand in Berkeley, that is literally the basis of our entire form of government (I was almost going to say "basis of our democracy" but we simply are not a democracy...we're barely a representational republic at this point thanks to corruption and big money).

Those students were exercising a 1st Amendment Solution to something they objected to. The right of the people to peaceably assemble has always been by far one of the most important rights that allows for the continuation of constitutional rule. You would think an aspiring attorney who believes so deeply in the originalist interpretation of the Constitution would recognize such a right and not be against it.

Citizens have a right to be pissed off at government or someone spouting something they disagree with. That's kinda why this whole party got started back in the day. Personally, I think any Constitutional Lawyer should also have to have at least a BA in History/American Civics so they can understand the WHY instead of just the WHAT when it comes to such things. As someone who possesses a deep love of history, it disturbs me to no end to see such ignorance of the past regardless of the person's political beliefs. I know I am not alone on TL with this feeling as there are quite a few other History majors and even a couple of actual practicing historians IIRC.


On Michelle, I dont know what criticism anyone could ever have of her. She was a completely non-political First Lady for her husband's entire term. It'd be like criticizing Barbara or Laura Bush. Its just a non-starter for taking anyone seriously when they start talking about evil Moo-chelle (get it, she's supposedly fat or something so she's Moo like a cow). Granted in every picture I've ever seen of her, she looks pretty ripped for a woman her age but whatever. As Kimon notes, her major issue was eating healthy...dear god, who knew that was a red button issue for conservatives? Its up there with Nancy Dont Do Drugs Reagan for pure evilness or Laura "Have Your Kids Read More" Bush.

I mean, its literally the least political thing on earth. I understood criticism of Hillary as First Lady...I personally think she had zero business being involved in the Healthcare push and it was a huge blunder for Bill to give her that post but I also think she demanded it of him.

Same with any criticism of Obama's underage children who had zero political involvement or the criticism of Chelsea by the Far Right when her dad was President.

Criticizing Ivanka and Jared is completely different. For one, they're adults, for two, they both have official jobs in the White House and three, both have massive ethics issues that would be completely illegal for any other executive branch employee and would lead to a termination. The President is exempt from ethics laws for some insane reason, other employees of the Executive Branch sure as hell aren't.
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  #1082  
Old 05-15-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
As Kimon notes, her major issue was eating healthy...dear god, who knew that was a red button issue for conservatives?
I thought that it was well known that American conservatives are vehemently opposed to health, especially health for people with "that skin colour". That's why they are so strongly against Obamacare too, isn't it?
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  #1083  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:38 PM
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It will be interesting to see the republicans try to defend this one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.a7b69bf4035f

Quote:
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said that Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information Trump relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.

The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said that Trump’s decision to do so risks cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and National Security Agency.

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”
Quote:
The CIA declined to comment and the National Security Agency did not respond to requests for comment.

But officials expressed concern with Trump’s handling of sensitive information as well as his grasp of the potential consequences. Exposure of an intelligence stream that has provided critical insight into the Islamic State, they said, could hinder the United States’ and its allies’ ability to detect future threats.

“It is all kind of shocking,” said a former senior U.S. official close to current administration officials. “Trump seems to be very reckless, and doesn’t grasp the gravity of the things he’s dealing with, especially when it comes to intelligence and national security. And it’s all clouded because of this problem he has with Russia.”
Quote:
In his meeting with Lavrov, Trump seemed to be boasting about his inside knowledge of the looming threat. “I get great intel. I have people brief me on great intel every day,” Trump said, according to an official with knowledge of the exchange.

Trump went on to discuss aspects of the threat that the United States only learned through the espionage capabilities of a key partner. He did not reveal the specific intelligence gathering method, but described how the Islamic State was pursuing elements of a specific plot and how much harm such an attack could cause under varying circumstances. Most alarmingly, officials said, Trump revealed the city in the Islamic State’s territory where the U.S. intelligence partner detected the threat.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-15-2017 at 05:43 PM.
  #1084  
Old 05-15-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
It will be interesting to see the republicans try to defend this one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.a7b69bf4035f
It will be labeled fake news, of course. When the crime is so awful that no reasonable defense is possible, question whether it happened at all.
  #1085  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
It will be labeled fake news, of course. When the crime is so awful that no reasonable defense is possible, question whether it happened at all.
Sounds like this was specifically about the intel collected regarding the laptop warning. It also sounds like the WH is tacitly admitting that the president revealed classified information. McMaster et alii have all avoided making any mention of classified material in their coordinated (and w/o any questions) statements, thus through that omission, ceding at least that much of the accusation. What McMaster and the others have all instead attempted to argue is that he didn't reveal sources or methods. But that explicitly was not what the article was reporting.

Quote:
Trump went on to discuss aspects of the threat that the United States learned only through the espionage capabilities of a key partner. He did not reveal the specific intelligence-gathering method, but he described how the Islamic State was pursuing elements of a specific plot and how much harm such an attack could cause under varying circumstances. Most alarmingly, officials said, Trump revealed the city in the Islamic State’s territory where the U.S. intelligence partner detected the threat.

The Post is withholding most plot details, including the name of the city, at the urging of officials who warned that revealing them would jeopardize important intelligence capabilities.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-15-2017 at 08:20 PM.
  #1086  
Old 05-15-2017, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Sounds like this was specifically about the intel collected regarding the laptop warning. It also sounds like the WH is tacitly admitting that the president revealed classified information. McMaster et alii have all avoided making any mention of classified material in their coordinated (and w/o any questions) statements, thus through that omission, ceding at least that much of the accusation. What McMaster and the others have all instead attempted to argue is that he didn't reveal sources or methods. But that explicitly was not what the article was reporting.
From what I understand, Trump apparently an declassify a lot of things on his own. I do wonder about procedure, though. Does he have to be on record declassifying a piece of intel *before* he blabs, or can he declassify anything he blabs about?

Either way, this seems like yet another case where the blind faith of the Constitution that the President will be at least mildly intelligent and honest is wildly misplaced.
  #1087  
Old 05-15-2017, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
From what I understand, Trump apparently an declassify a lot of things on his own. I do wonder about procedure, though. Does he have to be on record declassifying a piece of intel *before* he blabs, or can he declassify anything he blabs about?

Either way, this seems like yet another case where the blind faith of the Constitution that the President will be at least mildly intelligent and honest is wildly misplaced.
There is nothing illegal about what he did. But it was colosally stupid. It was egregiously irresponsible. Had he shared this type of material with Britain it would not be an issue. But Russia? His ego seemingly will simply not allow him to reassess and to admit that they are an enemy rather than a friend. That, along with his complete lack of self-control is why every day seems to bring a new, and even more idiotic scandal. That feeds into the other problem. Who amongst our allies could honestly look at Trump and assess that the man can be trusted with sensitive information. The general assumption would seem to be that the foreign source for this intel likely has to be either Jordan or Israel. But whoever it is, this will almost certainly cause allies to second guess sharing intel with us in the future (at least until Trump is gone), thinking that any information shared will soon be compromised, soon revealed to Russia, or China, or Israel. Or whoever else happens to be in a room with Trump and tricks that fool into talking.
  #1088  
Old 05-15-2017, 10:50 PM
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As expected, we got a non-denial denial which completely sidestepped the point, and yet they have the gall to call the WaPo story "false".

What's truly alarming is that he apparently revealed the location of the source in Syria. That is info that can be used to backtrack and potentially figure out who this source is, since the nature of the intel is such that it cannot be widely known.

What's even more crazy is that Russian media were present at the meeting. And if Trump is indeed taping everything at the White House, this is on tape. Or, if he tapes everything but didn't tape this meeting, that's a smoking gun if there ever was one.

The stupidity here is astonishing. Really, they need to teach this stuff in Country Destruction 101.
  #1089  
Old 05-16-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
As expected, we got a non-denial denial which completely sidestepped the point, and yet they have the gall to call the WaPo story "false".

What's truly alarming is that he apparently revealed the location of the source in Syria. That is info that can be used to backtrack and potentially figure out who this source is, since the nature of the intel is such that it cannot be widely known.

What's even more crazy is that Russian media were present at the meeting. And if Trump is indeed taping everything at the White House, this is on tape. Or, if he tapes everything but didn't tape this meeting, that's a smoking gun if there ever was one.

The stupidity here is astonishing. Really, they need to teach this stuff in Country Destruction 101.
And, of course, this morning Trump admits it all.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39937258

Quote:
In his tweet early on Tuesday, Mr Trump said: "As President I wanted to share with Russia (at an openly scheduled W.H. meeting) which I have the absolute right to do, facts pertaining to terrorism and airline flight safety.
"Humanitarian reasons, plus I want Russia to greatly step up their fight against [IS] & terrorism."
Have to wonder how long McMaster and Mattis will be willing to put up with working for him.
  #1090  
Old 05-16-2017, 07:59 AM
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Somebody should read Trump the relevant part of his Miranda rights. "You have the right to remain silent."

Or, alternatively, point out that fairly frequently, free speech is worth what you paid for it.
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  #1091  
Old 05-16-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Sounds like this was specifically about the intel collected regarding the laptop warning. It also sounds like the WH is tacitly admitting that the president revealed classified information. McMaster et alii have all avoided making any mention of classified material in their coordinated (and w/o any questions) statements, thus through that omission, ceding at least that much of the accusation. What McMaster and the others have all instead attempted to argue is that he didn't reveal sources or methods. But that explicitly was not what the article was reporting.
Legally the President did nothing illegal...it was a dumbass move and idiotic and moronic and an asshole thing to do but the entire US classification system is based upon an EO...EO10450, EO12968 and a few others that clarify various aspects of classification access. The entire system is set up on the theory that the President isn't a jackass. He has the absolute right to declassify anything he wants and/or share material with anyone whether its Jared and Ivanka or the Foreign Minister of a hostile power accused of subverting our electoral process to get this idiot elected.

So its not impeachable but its still massively disturbing and it will have long-term ramifications to any intelligence sharing we have with other nations going forward.

I would consider myself an SME on the subject of classification...so would the gov't for that matter based on the certifications they've had me get in that area.
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  #1092  
Old 05-16-2017, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
As expected, we got a non-denial denial which completely sidestepped the point, and yet they have the gall to call the WaPo story "false".

What's truly alarming is that he apparently revealed the location of the source in Syria. That is info that can be used to backtrack and potentially figure out who this source is, since the nature of the intel is such that it cannot be widely known.

What's even more crazy is that Russian media were present at the meeting. And if Trump is indeed taping everything at the White House, this is on tape. Or, if he tapes everything but didn't tape this meeting, that's a smoking gun if there ever was one.

The stupidity here is astonishing. Really, they need to teach this stuff in Country Destruction 101.
FWIW, any tapes that are created in the White House would automatically be classified anyway...especially in the West Wing as the entire West Wing is a SCIF (area where classified material can be discussed) for all intents and purposes. Everyone who works there other than the Russian Media has literally the highest clearance we give out...you have to to have that sort of access to the President. That was big uproar on Ivanka and Jared...giving them Yankee White access is a really really big deal as it gives access to basically EVERYTHING outside of some specific SAP programs that obviously the President would just wave his hand and say "brief them" anyway.

Maybe he'll solve all this by giving Putin and Co clearances so they can just get it directly from CIA/NSA, etc.
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  #1093  
Old 05-16-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
FWIW, any tapes that are created in the White House would automatically be classified anyway...especially in the West Wing as the entire West Wing is a SCIF (area where classified material can be discussed) for all intents and purposes. Everyone who works there other than the Russian Media has literally the highest clearance we give out...you have to to have that sort of access to the President. That was big uproar on Ivanka and Jared...giving them Yankee White access is a really really big deal as it gives access to basically EVERYTHING outside of some specific SAP programs that obviously the President would just wave his hand and say "brief them" anyway.

Maybe he'll solve all this by giving Putin and Co clearances so they can just get it directly from CIA/NSA, etc.
But are videos shot by Russian news media subject to US classification if they were invited into the WH? How would the US even enforce that, once the tapes/copies reach Russia?
  #1094  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:14 PM
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But are videos shot by Russian news media subject to US classification if they were invited into the WH? How would the US even enforce that, once the tapes/copies reach Russia?
No and we couldn't.

Bringing a foreign national into a secure area is supposed to be a ridiculously onerous process with rigorous vetting. DHS & DoD require 30 calendar days notice for such a request and a ton of personal data in order to vet them. Bug sweeping is conducted after any such visit and the area is supposed to be sanitized of any sensitive information beforehand (maps, documents covered and locked up, computers locked down, etc etc).

Unfortunately, such sanitation does not prevent an idiot with access from straight out telling people about it.
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:40 PM
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Unfortunately, such sanitation does not prevent an idiot with access from straight out telling people about it.
Precisely.

The other worrying thing here is that Trump and his underlings are saying things that the Russians can potentially contradict with video evidence. Putting Tump and his administration in a position to be blackmailed, again. Once again, the coverup is worse than the crime. There's a deeply troubling pattern, here.
  #1096  
Old 05-16-2017, 12:51 PM
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Precisely.

The other worrying thing here is that Trump and his underlings are saying things that the Russians can potentially contradict with video evidence. Putting Tump and his administration in a position to be blackmailed, again. Once again, the coverup is worse than the crime. There's a deeply troubling pattern, here.
Great example of that latter point: McMasters is swearing up and down that nothing was discussed of concerned...the Russian photographic record does not show he was even there for the discussion. So...was he there or was he just "in the building"? They have zero credibility at this point and every reason to be distrusted.
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Last edited by Davian93; 05-16-2017 at 12:54 PM.
  #1097  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:03 PM
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This smells so much like an attempted political coup... What's going on is that someone on the inside is getting paid to release bs information to get Trump impeached, and then the Left-wing media (mainstream media, same thing) is running with it. Every person is denying the story, and until we know more it's ridiculous to regard what has happened as fact. The story that Trump filed Comey for investigating Russia is more legitimate than this, and that too shouldn't be taken too seriously until Comey testifies and we learn more.

The bottom line is someone is making shit up to get rid of Trump, and that should be more alarming than anything Trump has said or done.

Remember, the Clinton News Network thought it was necessary to report how many scoops of ice cream Trump eats compared to the rest of his staff.

Last edited by Southpaw2012; 05-16-2017 at 03:11 PM.
  #1098  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
This smells so much like an attempted political coup... What's going on is that someone on the inside is getting paid to release bs information to get Trump impeached, and then the Left-wing media (mainstream media, same thing) is running with it. Every person is denying the story, and until we know more it's ridiculous to regard what has happened as fact. The story that Trump filed Comey for investigating Russia is more legitimate than this, and that too shouldn't be taken too seriously until Comey testifies and we learn more.
Wait... seriously? Trump himself said that was the reason he fired him. I don't understand; how is that level of cognitive dissonance possible? Either Trump casually gets off on lying to the American public, and you accept it whenever you want it to fit into your pre-conceived narrative and assume he's honest 100% of the rest of the time, or Trump fired Comey specifically because he continued to investigate potential additional campaign links (remember, we know for a fact that member of the Trump campaigned acted, at best, unethically in regards to contact with a foreign government) to the proven foreign interference in our election!.

Quote:
The bottom line is someone is making shit up to get rid of Trump, and that should be more alarming than anything Trump has said or done.
No, the real problem is that just about every important story scooped by the media has been validated in whole or in part by further investigation or the Trump Administration themselves.

Quote:
Remember, the Clinton News Network thought it was necessary to report how many scoops of ice cream Trump eats compared to the rest of his staff.
And this invalidates any other news stories, because...? Fox News runs stories about dogs saving people from drowning instead of talking about the tax implications of Trumpcare, but that doesn't mean the facts that they DO bother to report are generally inaccurate.

And mind you, the ice cream thing? Legit story. In isolation its a ridiculous puff piece, but psychologically it's fascinating. You don't think it's indicative of something that Mr. Trump insists that he be served more ice cream than anyone else, as a matter of White House policy?
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:02 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
The bottom line is someone is making shit up to get rid of Trump, and that should be more alarming than anything Trump has said or done.
Firstly, no, not made up. Leaked, yes, made up, no, since we have independent verification from Buzzfeed and NYT's sources, so far as I can tell.

And you do realize that you're saying that "Fake news" as Trump understands it, is a bigger issue that Trump's words and actions that are causing real harm? How the f*ck does that make any sense?

ETA: Reuters too, has independent verification from their own sources. And WaPo clearly stated they weren't revealing details at the urging of intelligence officials who said naming the city can reveal info about the sources and methods of intelligence gathering, meaning what Trump revealed to the Russians, and what all these news sources very correctly haven't made public, is something the intelligence community believes could be harmful for their operation to reveal.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 05-16-2017 at 04:12 PM.
  #1100  
Old 05-16-2017, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 View Post
... What's going on is that someone on the inside is getting paid to release bs information to get Trump impeached, and then the Left-wing media (mainstream media, same thing) is running with it...
No, what's going on is someone on the inside wants those of us on the outside to know what the Fuckwit-In-Chief has done.

It won't come to impeachment for a good long while yet. The GOP whores in Congress have too much to deliver yet to their corporate pimps.
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