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  #121  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
That's all I'm saying. Hillary voters were more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter what. Bernie voters, on the other hand, were generally not so loyal to the Democratic party. That's extremely pertinent when it comes to the general election calculus. It's why Bernie was more likely to win, and would have remained more likely to win even if he'd been "torn apart" in the general.
As much as we want to pretend that a good chunk of Democrats aren't just as sexist as Republicans...Bernie wouldn't have lost the white male democrat vote the way Hillary did. And its not like she pulled in the woman vote either so that particular theory has hopefully finally died a painful death. Women DO NOT give a damn about electing the first female President. Sure, a small minority of them do but overall, they honestly dont care. On Bernie, his populist message would have allowed him to hold onto PA, MI and WI. Sure, he maybe isn't as competitive in NC (like that mattered) but who the hell cares. All the states where Hillary was super strong in the primaries due to the black vote were GOP strongholds anyway. Who gives a damn if NC took a while to be called for the GOP...in the end, she lost and lost badly as she's easily the most hated woman in the country.
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  #122  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:28 AM
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This is amusingly ironic. You've stumbled, by accident, upon the point I was making. It is something you have done quite often, as I hinted, in previous interactions. Something which clearly does not impress me...
A point you refused to make and still have not.
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  #123  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:41 AM
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As much as we want to pretend that a good chunk of Democrats aren't just as sexist as Republicans...Bernie wouldn't have lost the white male democrat vote the way Hillary did. And its not like she pulled in the woman vote either so that particular theory has hopefully finally died a painful death. Women DO NOT give a damn about electing the first female President. Sure, a small minority of them do but overall, they honestly dont care.
I mean, we care. We want to see it happen. We also want to pick the best person for the job. I can understand why many women thought Hillary was that person, but I never did. And I wanted Elizabeth Warren not because she was a woman (though it would have indeed been a convenient weapon in the 2016 primary), but because she was everything I wanted in a candidate aside from a few minor and humanly inevitable flaws. She was a progressive firebrand like Bernie but better in almost every way. She was the right person to steer the economy back on track, the right person to breathe new life into the party, and the right person to inspire the fickle left enough to overcome whatever role sexism might have played in the general. But it was Hillary's turn, right?
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  #124  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:44 AM
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If the Bernie voters that voted for Trump, Johnson, Stein, or write-ins really think that Hillary is just as bad as Trump, that's one thing. But if they think he's a disaster, and that Hillary would be just like Obama, unless they would have also been unwilling to vote for Obama, I just don't get why so many were unwilling to vote for Hillary, unless out of spite.
I only have anecdotal evidence on this, but when Bernie lost, there was an influx of people joining my libertarian page on facebook. I can give you some reasons that I saw though.

A lot of them, male and female alike, didn't like the idea that they had to vote for her "because she's a woman" the weird thing is, that mostly came from much younger, first time voters who were Bernie loving females. There were a lot of passionate arguments about this simply because most libertarians don't give a flying sack of shit what gender you are as long as you leave them alone.

Several weren't comfortable with her ties to Wall Street even when the knew how deep Trump and Johnsons ties were to Wall Street also.

The reason a lot of them looked libertarian is because they're sick of interventionist policies held dear by both parties in US. They said she was as much a warmonger as Bush, Trump, and Obama in their eyes (mine too, incidentally, but this isn't about me).

The biggest reason I found though was that Bernie supporters, in general, weren't comfortable voting for the lesser of two evils. I think that's what caused many of them to vote libertarian. There were also quite a few that chose to write in Bernie. I'd love to see something that showed how many votes he got. I haven't really tried all that hard to find it though.
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  #125  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I mean, we care. We want to see it happen. We also want to pick the best person for the job. I can understand why many women thought Hillary was that person, but I never did. And I wanted Elizabeth Warren not because she was a woman (though it would have indeed been a convenient weapon in the 2016 primary), but because she was everything I wanted in a candidate aside from a few minor and humanly inevitable flaws. She was a progressive firebrand like Bernie but better in almost every way. She was the right person to steer the economy back on track, the right person to breathe new life into the party, and the right person to inspire the fickle left enough to overcome whatever role sexism might have played in the general. But it was Hillary's turn, right?
Yup...and going with it being "her turn" worked out really well. It stopped better qualified Dems like Biden or Warren from running and it destroyed any chance that an insurgent candidate like Bernie had.

I still say the strongest ticket by far would have been Biden/Warren. It appealed to both wings of the party and there was none of the negative baggage that the Clintons bring into the equation.
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  #126  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:50 AM
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There were also quite a few that chose to write in Bernie. I'd love to see something that showed how many votes he got. I haven't really tried all that hard to find it though.
It'd probably be nearly impossible to do so since most states simply toss out write-in votes without even counting them due to the very specific laws they have about write-in candidates (they have to be registered, etc). So those votes were simply never counted.
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  #127  
Old 11-16-2016, 12:09 PM
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Trump refuses a salary as President...that's basically Step #1 of "How to be a Populist Demagogue". When do the roundups and purges begin? He's already cleared out the Christie supporters in the Night of the Long Steak Knives...soon enough, it'll be some other group of undesirables.
Are you sure that "undesirables" is the right term? I thought that "deplorables" would be more apt.
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  #128  
Old 11-16-2016, 12:16 PM
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On the subject of "it's her turrn" here's what gets to me; throughout this election there was an expectation stated repeatedly that people needed to "fall in line." Realistically, it is the candidate and/or party's job to appeal to voters, not the voter's job to line up with a candidate.

In my opinion, this is really what turned off a lot of potential Hillary voters.
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  #129  
Old 11-16-2016, 12:28 PM
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In my opinion, this is really what turned off a lot of potential Hillary voters.
They should just have obeyed orders. American democracy is all about "do as I say, not as I do", after all.
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  #130  
Old 11-16-2016, 12:47 PM
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Yup...and going with it being "her turn" worked out really well. It stopped better qualified Dems like Biden or Warren from running and it destroyed any chance that an insurgent candidate like Bernie had.

I still say the strongest ticket by far would have been Biden/Warren. It appealed to both wings of the party and there was none of the negative baggage that the Clintons bring into the equation.
I disagree. No one takes Biden seriously; that's especially obvious right now with all the Biden memes, but it was always pretty obvious. My dream ticket was Warren/Feingold. And, on that note, Feingold would almost certainly have won his senate seat back in Wisconsin with Bernie or Warren at the top of the ticket. Instead, Hillary lost Wisconsin and a senate seat.

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Originally Posted by Sei'taer View Post
On the subject of "it's her turrn" here's what gets to me; throughout this election there was an expectation stated repeatedly that people needed to "fall in line." Realistically, it is the candidate and/or party's job to appeal to voters, not the voter's job to line up with a candidate.

In my opinion, this is really what turned off a lot of potential Hillary voters.
It was a coronation. It was almost that way in 2008, which is how we ended up with Obama; he was a much easier alternative for the loyal Democrats to get behind than Bernie, and the progressive wing did not want Hillary. When she lost 2008, loyal Democrats felt sorry for her; this is well-documented. That just heightened the desire in the core of the party to give her another chance, and the fact that it was her second run just solidified her inevitability.

She shouldn't have run. Her announcement video was one of the most depressing things I've ever seen in American politics, honestly.
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  #131  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:00 PM
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I disagree. No one takes Biden seriously; that's especially obvious right now with all the Biden memes, but it was always pretty obvious. My dream ticket was Warren/Feingold. And, on that note, Feingold would almost certainly have won his senate seat back in Wisconsin with Bernie or Warren at the top of the ticket. Instead, Hillary lost Wisconsin and a senate seat.


It was a coronation. It was almost that way in 2008, which is how we ended up with Obama; he was a much easier alternative for the loyal Democrats to get behind than Bernie, and the progressive wing did not want Hillary. When she lost 2008, loyal Democrats felt sorry for her; this is well-documented. That just heightened the desire in the core of the party to give her another chance, and the fact that it was her second run just solidified her inevitability.

She shouldn't have run. Her announcement video was one of the most depressing things I've ever seen in American politics, honestly.

"It's my turn" probably would have been a better slogan.
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  #132  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:04 PM
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I disagree. No one takes Biden seriously; that's especially obvious right now with all the Biden memes, but it was always pretty obvious. My dream ticket was Warren/Feingold. And, on that note, Feingold would almost certainly have won his senate seat back in Wisconsin with Bernie or Warren at the top of the ticket. Instead, Hillary lost Wisconsin and a senate seat.


It was a coronation. It was almost that way in 2008, which is how we ended up with Obama; he was a much easier alternative for the loyal Democrats to get behind than Bernie, and the progressive wing did not want Hillary. When she lost 2008, loyal Democrats felt sorry for her; this is well-documented. That just heightened the desire in the core of the party to give her another chance, and the fact that it was her second run just solidified her inevitability.

She shouldn't have run. Her announcement video was one of the most depressing things I've ever seen in American politics, honestly.
I disagree. Plenty of people take him seriously and he's very well liked (thus the basis of those ridiculous memes)

Also, if being taken super seriously was a requirement for President, we wouldn't be practicing our goosestepping right now for the Trumpenfuhrer.
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  #133  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:08 PM
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I disagree. Plenty of people take him seriously and he's very well liked (thus the basis of those ridiculous memes)

Also, if being taken super seriously was a requirement for President, we wouldn't be practicing our goosestepping right now for the Trumpenfuhrer.
He wouldn't have been much better than Hillary because he's not inspiring to the maybe-voters in any way. Not as hated, sure, but hardly a formidable candidate. You can put him side-by-side with Bernie and he looks more serious and presidential, but as you say, that didn't seem to matter much in this election. It was all about populist fervor, and Biden was never that.
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  #134  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:14 PM
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He wouldn't have been much better than Hillary because he's not inspiring to the maybe-voters in any way. Not as hated, sure, but hardly a formidable candidate. You can put him side-by-side with Bernie and he looks more serious and presidential, but as you say, that didn't seem to matter much in this election. It was all about populist fervor, and Biden was never that.
Biden is a pretty good speaker...if you've never heard him give a speech. He's far better and more personable than Hillary could ever hope to be. And having Warren on the ticket would have significantly helped him. There was zero chance that Hillary would have gone with an all female ticket but a balanced ticket would have worked great for Biden.
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  #135  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:25 PM
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Today's fun news: Pence wants to model his Vice Presidency off of Dick Cheney's.

Always two are the Sith...Master and Apprentice.
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  #136  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:30 PM
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I disagree. Plenty of people take him seriously and he's very well liked (thus the basis of those ridiculous memes)

Also, if being taken super seriously was a requirement for President, we wouldn't be practicing our goosestepping right now for the Trumpenfuhrer.
I like Biden as well, and agree that he would have been a better candidate than Hillary, but this does underscore the divide between the pragmatists and the idealists (both groups are progressives). The Bernie crowd doesn't just have a problem with Hillary, it's with all the more pragmatic wing of the party. This is why they remind me of the Tea Party on the other side. There is that same fervor for purist idealism in both groups, even if it has taken different forms, although both groups also tend to be more populist. Nonetheless, this did seem a cycle where a more populist candidate clearly would have done better, at least against Trump's own populism.

That reference to not taking Biden seriously, while hoping for Bernie/Feingold also demonstrates how wide the divide is, because I can't take either Bernie or Feingold seriously, but like Biden. This is why Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown would perhaps have been the best top of ticket choices. Both have appeal both for the populists (Bernie types), and the pragmatists (Obama types). But picking a ticket of Bernie and Feingold would have been as imbalanced as Hillary's ticket of herself and Kaine. If he won, I would have been urging, or at least hoping, that he would take someone like Cory Booker or Kirsten Gillibrand. Feingold wouldn't add anything different to that ticket. And let's be blunt, Feingold isn't impressive in any way. There's a reason why he was always a toss up to hold his own seat in Wisconsin.
  #137  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:31 PM
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Today's fun news: Pence wants to model his Vice Presidency off of Dick Cheney's.

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Do you know the philosophy behind the rule of two?
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  #138  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:34 PM
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Bernie/Feingold would have be way too far Left to gain national acceptance. They maybe eke out a victory against Trump but I dont see them having coattails among the moderate wing of the party.

They likely would have done a bit better than Hillary/Kaine though.

Speaking of which, what the hell did Kaine actually bring to the ticket? He didn't even help with VA...which was barely won by Hillary. He has to be one of the worst VP picks in recent memory (not Palin bad but definitely up there with Paul Ryan or Joe Lieberman (great pick, John...wasn't idiotic at all)
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Old 11-16-2016, 01:36 PM
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Not sure why anyone wouldn't take Feingold seriously.

What Kaine brought to Hillary's ticket: subordinance. She didn't want anyone to outshine her, so she picked a "safe" dud.
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Old 11-16-2016, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Not sure why anyone wouldn't take Feingold seriously.

What Kaine brought to Hillary's ticket: subordinance. She didn't want anyone to outshine her, so she picked a "safe" dud.
Like every single other decision she made...that really worked out well, eh?
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Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

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