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  #141  
Old 11-16-2016, 12:43 PM
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Not sure why anyone wouldn't take Feingold seriously.

.
Well, for one, he got his ass kicked in his last 2 Senate election attempts...that doesn't exactly bode well for him at the national level.

When the people that know him best won't vote for him, there's something wrong. He was a 3 term sitting Senator who lost to an idiot in Ron Johnson...TWICE.
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  #142  
Old 11-16-2016, 01:07 PM
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When the people that know him best won't vote for him, there's something wrong.
Wrong with him or the people?
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  #143  
Old 11-16-2016, 02:14 PM
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It'd be wise for liberals to pay attention to these easy truths.


http://www.newsmax.com/JonahGoldberg.../16/id/759200/

http://www.theblaze.com/contribution...ing-like-this/


The fixation is "racism" and "sexism" will destroy the Democratic Party if they don't learn to argue with facts and reason to legitimate issues, such as how to actually improve the country. No sane person denies racism excuse, but what I just speaks truths as to how ridiculous it has become.

1. No, the electoral college isn't racist or sexist nor was it ever intended to be.

2. No, white people aren't racist simply because they're white.

3. No, Trump voters aren't racist. Some obviously are, as are some Clinton supporters, and those people should be emphatically denounced at every moment. However, 54% of white voters voting Trump are no more racist than the 95% of blacks who voted for Obama.


4. If liberals want to win again, it might be smart to get someone less liberal who may appeal to moderates. Nut-job Elizabeth Warren won't win over the truly educated / actual working people of the nation. It's unfortunate Jim Webb didn't do better... Though he would've been taken down by the corrupt Clinton cartel.

5. American universities are now the joke of the civilized world, as they have become absolutely pathetic with the whole "cry-in" sessions hosted for pathetic, weak minded hippies who can't handle losing. We survived King Obama, they can survive Trump. If he gets out of line, answer at the voting booths.


As I've said before, if you want to keep losing, keep accusing conservative whites of racism and sexism. It will fail and fail hard. Many people who voted for Trump didn't do it out of admiration or support, but as a backlash to the progressive bs that has infected this nation.
  #144  
Old 11-16-2016, 02:30 PM
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Um...the rise of racism and sexism in the country are legitimate issues that need to be addressed.

The rest of your post doesn't even rise to level of needing to be addressed since its just so ridiculous.

We get it, you don't like your fellow classmates and think they're all liberal hippies.
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  #145  
Old 11-16-2016, 02:36 PM
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4. If liberals want to win again, it might be smart to get someone less liberal who may appeal to moderates
Fun fact: Hillary was a Goldwater Girl, held Center Right policies and was mostly despised by the Liberal wing of the party. Her husband won election by going the Third Way (I assume even a pre-law student like you is familiar with that rise of fiscally conservative/socially liberal policies that dominated the US and UK in the 1990s). Neither was or is a super liberal and both were despised by the liberal/progressive base for that centrist viewpoint.

She didn't lose by being "too liberal".
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  #146  
Old 11-16-2016, 03:10 PM
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Fun fact: Hillary was a Goldwater Girl, held Center Right policies and was mostly despised by the Liberal wing of the party. Her husband won election by going the Third Way (I assume even a pre-law student like you is familiar with that rise of fiscally conservative/socially liberal policies that dominated the US and UK in the 1990s). Neither was or is a super liberal and both were despised by the liberal/progressive base for that centrist viewpoint.

She didn't lose by being "too liberal".
I still don't get this push to deny that Hillary is progressive enough, or liberal enough. She was the force behind the attempt at single payer health care under Bill Clinton, and she has a progressive voting record on progressive issues in terms of social justice and gun control. Indeed much more strongly so than Bernie on gun control. Her main problems on the left are not with actual progressive issues, it's with free trade (a stance that she shares with Obama), and her hawkishness. The former is not a progressive/conservative divide. It is pragmatist vs idealist. Nor is the latter. That is a hawk/dove issue, not progressive/conservative issue. I don't like how hawkish she is either, but that has nothing to do with being a progressive.

The difference between her and Bernie isn't over who is more deserving of the mantle of progressivism, it's over who wears the mantle of populism. Those are not the same thing. This was a divide between idealism and pragmatism. The country was no longer in the mood for pragmatism. After four years of Trump that likely (or at least hopefully) will change.

On the other hand, had more of us just been pragmatic...
  #147  
Old 11-16-2016, 03:30 PM
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I still don't get this push to deny that Hillary is progressive enough, or liberal enough. She was the force behind the attempt at single payer health care under Bill Clinton, and she has a progressive voting record on progressive issues in terms of social justice and gun control. Indeed much more strongly so than Bernie on gun control. Her main problems on the left are not with actual progressive issues, it's with free trade (a stance that she shares with Obama), and her hawkishness. The former is not a progressive/conservative divide. It is pragmatist vs idealist. Nor is the latter. That is a hawk/dove issue, not progressive/conservative issue. I don't like how hawkish she is either, but that has nothing to do with being a progressive.

The difference between her and Bernie isn't over who is more deserving of the mantle of progressivism, it's over who wears the mantle of populism. Those are not the same thing. This was a divide between idealism and pragmatism. The country was no longer in the mood for pragmatism. After four years of Trump that likely (or at least hopefully) will change.

On the other hand, had more of us just been pragmatic...
She's not a classic liberal, she's the same as her husband with the 3rd Way. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. That's why Wall Street loved her so much. Her monetary positions were anything but liberal.

Thus, not progressive enough.
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  #148  
Old 11-16-2016, 03:57 PM
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Burn my soul, there are legends of a tall red-haired fellow with 3 wives who rose to the heights of power . . . at a time when the world was becoming a dust bowl, while he did nothing, leaving it to others to restore the weather.

He had a wall built about his tower, but that wall became a prison . . . he attempted to expel a foreign horde, but only succeeded in destroying those around him.

The legends will fade to myth and eventually be long forgotten . . .
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  #149  
Old 11-16-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
She's not a classic liberal, she's the same as her husband with the 3rd Way. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. That's why Wall Street loved her so much. Her monetary positions were anything but liberal.

Thus, not progressive enough.
Is Obama a progressive?

She supports regulations. Supports unions. Supports Keynesian economic policies. Opposes Citizens United. The Clintons inherited NAFTA, they didn't negotiate it. Hadn't campaigned for it. Bill simply thought that trying to smother it in the crib would do more harm than good. Repealing NAFTA will not bring back those manufacturing jobs. No more than demagoguing about coal will somehow bring back those lost coal jobs in Appalachia. her stance on the TTP and TTIP was obviously more nebulous than Bernie's, but her stance was born out of obligations from working in the administration that negotiated and was selling those deals - Obama.

Canada just negotiated a trade deal with the EU. Is Trudeau not a progressive? Is the EU fiscally conservative?

This simply strikes me as a misapplication of the terminology. It also strikes me of the potential drawback of nominating a figure that has been in the public eye so long that opinions are cemented out of disinformation and false impressions painted by the other side more than out of their own record. Bernie at least had the benefit of being more a blank slate, an unknown, much like Obama had been in '08.
  #150  
Old 11-16-2016, 06:48 PM
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Is Obama a progressive?

She supports regulations. Supports unions. Supports Keynesian economic policies. Opposes Citizens United. The Clintons inherited NAFTA, they didn't negotiate it. Hadn't campaigned for it. Bill simply thought that trying to smother it in the crib would do more harm than good. Repealing NAFTA will not bring back those manufacturing jobs. No more than demagoguing about coal will somehow bring back those lost coal jobs in Appalachia. her stance on the TTP and TTIP was obviously more nebulous than Bernie's, but her stance was born out of obligations from working in the administration that negotiated and was selling those deals - Obama.

Canada just negotiated a trade deal with the EU. Is Trudeau not a progressive? Is the EU fiscally conservative?

This simply strikes me as a misapplication of the terminology. It also strikes me of the potential drawback of nominating a figure that has been in the public eye so long that opinions are cemented out of disinformation and false impressions painted by the other side more than out of their own record. Bernie at least had the benefit of being more a blank slate, an unknown, much like Obama had been in '08.
Honestly, I would say that Obama is not a true progressive. He's fairly liberally socially (though he didn't push LBGTQ rights, he basically allowed the states to do it so that's a bit of a black mark on his social progressive side). His healthcare plan was a free handout to the Insurance companies that is now falling apart as they are raping us with premium increases. His fiscal policies are no different than Clinton's and not much different than Bush Jr so he's basically just another Third Way modern democrat. The Dems haven't won election with a true liberal since probably LBJ was out of office. The progressive FDR New Deal wing of the party has been dead for a long long time.

Its not a misapplication of terminology, its the reality of American politics where we have a Far Right (now outright Fascist Nationalist party) and a Center Right party in the Dems. When people say Bernie, Feingold or Kucinich are "super liberal nuts" they forget that those 3 would be Center Left at best in a true balanced political spectrum.

The United States is a super conservative country in general...so this really isn't a surprise. Look what happens when a true Liberal tries to run:

1968: Bobby Kennedy (murdered), Eugene McCarthy (destroyed by the party machinery of Hubert)
1972: McGovern (Destroyed by Nixon)
1976: Carter crushed the liberal wing of the party (mainly Jerry Brown) as an "outsider" but a southern Democrat outsider.
1980: Ted Kennedy destroyed by Carter in the primary...due more to his drinking issues than anything.
1984: Mondale (technically a New Dealer but more of a centrist in reality) was destroyed in the most lopsided election loss in recent memory. McGovern lost the primary to him but it was never close. But it was "Mondale's turn" and it went about as well as 2016 for the Dems.
1988: Um...yeah, Dukakis worked out as yet another "establishment candidate" beating out Jesse Jackson and Al Gore. Dukakis was afraid to even call himself a "Liberal" since Reagan had made it a dirty word. Running from his views went about as well as expected.
1992: Clinton's Third Way crushes the liberal wing of the party.
1996: See Above
2000: Southerner Al Gore runs from the most popular president in recent memory, loses to an ape. Bill Bradley ran on the liberal wing and was utterly destroyed in the primaries.
2004: John Kerry crushes Howard Dean in the primary...runs as Republican Lite against a highly unpopular sitting president and gets crushed. Hell, his VP pick almost became the GOP VP 4 years later. Way to be a true liberal, John!
2008: Kucinich was technically a candidate in the primaries...he won zero states and zero delegates.
2012: Sitting president so no challenge.
2016: Bernie loses to one of the most unpopular political candidates in history.

So yeah...there really isn't much of a true liberal progressive wing in the Dem Party.
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  #151  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:24 PM
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I am glad that the vocal consensus is that the Democrats have no one but to blame but themselves for the most undemocratic nominee in history, and I am not exaggerating that in the slightest. I would have voted for Bernie over Trump, but I could not vote for Hillary. Obama's assessment of Hillary's campaign since the nomination was spot on and wikileaks revealed how Hillary and the DNC 21'd the primary.
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  #152  
Old 11-16-2016, 09:31 PM
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Trump's cabinet is continuing to fill up with some really dubious selections.

Priebus as Chief of Staff won't raise any eyebrows, but Bannon? Even some Republicans seem disgusted by that one. And the names floated for Sec of State, Giuliani and Bolton, are very much in the Neo-Con fold. Not exactly good signs for what his foreign policy will be like, especially when he could just pick someone like Corker instead. And now that nutty Lt. Gen. Flynn for National Security Advisor? This one is just as embarrassing as Bannon.
  #153  
Old 11-16-2016, 09:53 PM
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Trump's cabinet is continuing to fill up with some really dubious selections.

Priebus as Chief of Staff won't raise any eyebrows, but Bannon? Even some Republicans seem disgusted by that one. And the names floated for Sec of State, Giuliani and Bolton, are very much in the Neo-Con fold. Not exactly good signs for what his foreign policy will be like, especially when he could just pick someone like Corker instead. And now that nutty Lt. Gen. Flynn for National Security Advisor? This one is just as embarrassing as Bannon.
Ted Cruz has been floated as a potential SCOTUS replacement for Scalia's seat or the AG spot. I think that one wins the crazy factor so far.
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  #154  
Old 11-16-2016, 10:00 PM
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Ted Cruz has been floated as a potential SCOTUS replacement for Scalia's seat or the AG spot. I think that one wins the crazy factor so far.
I'm sure all the Bernie Bros will agree that Obama would have been just as bad for SCOTUS as Ted Cruz, right? I mean at least Trump will maybe kill the TTP. Priorities...
  #155  
Old 11-16-2016, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Weiramon View Post
Burn my soul, there are legends of a tall red-haired fellow with 3 wives who rose to the heights of power . . . at a time when the world was becoming a dust bowl, while he did nothing, leaving it to others to restore the weather.

He had a wall built about his tower, but that wall became a prison . . . he attempted to expel a foreign horde, but only succeeded in destroying those around him.

The legends will fade to myth and eventually be long forgotten . . .
If Mike Pence is Mat, does that mean he'll be comically married to al-Baghdadi at some point?
  #156  
Old 11-17-2016, 12:35 AM
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Well, for one, he got his ass kicked in his last 2 Senate election attempts...that doesn't exactly bode well for him at the national level.

When the people that know him best won't vote for him, there's something wrong. He was a 3 term sitting Senator who lost to an idiot in Ron Johnson...TWICE.
This has more to do with the purple nature of Wisconsin than anything else. It's why I say he would have won with a progressive at the top of the ticket. Democrats in general are not great about turning out for midterm elections; that's why he lost the first time. Even Illinois, one of the bluest states in the country, has this same problem; we just replaced a Republican senator who was elected in a midterm year. Wisconsin is much less dependably blue, so turnout was crucial this year.
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  #157  
Old 11-17-2016, 04:24 AM
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Canada just negotiated a trade deal with the EU. Is Trudeau not a progressive? Is the EU fiscally conservative?
Trudeau may be progressive, but he inherited the CETA negotiations from a more right wing government and I don't know of anything he did to change their course at all.
The EU is definitely right wing in general. The fact that there are actual socialists (sometimes even communists) in many parliaments here doesn't change the fact that governments in Europe tend to be right wing far more often than left wing. Time and time again government decisions are defended by saying "it is necessary in order to comply with EU budget rules".
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  #158  
Old 11-17-2016, 09:35 AM
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And how many *actually* comply with the EU budget rules? Not that many. In fact, it's three, some years two. And all of them are small countries.
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  #159  
Old 11-17-2016, 09:46 AM
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Well, yes. But while "do as we say, not as we do" is also vigorously practised by left wingers, it is definitely something that the right wing engages in too. So this is only a hint that even European politicians may be human, nothing more than that.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
This has more to do with the purple nature of Wisconsin than anything else. It's why I say he would have won with a progressive at the top of the ticket. Democrats in general are not great about turning out for midterm elections; that's why he lost the first time. Even Illinois, one of the bluest states in the country, has this same problem; we just replaced a Republican senator who was elected in a midterm year. Wisconsin is much less dependably blue, so turnout was crucial this year.
Sitting senators have a massive born-in advantage when it comes to campaigning...even in off-year elections. He was a 3 term Senator from a bluish state. He clearly hadn't done enough for Wisconsin for them to want to keep him.
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