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  #21  
Old 03-05-2017, 04:35 AM
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That's not Compulsion; using Compulsion is prohibited for AS. This is a different weave with a different name, so it is (legally speaking) not the same thing. The fact that for all practical purposes it is indistinguishable from Compulsion has no legal importance whatsoever.

The fact that if an Ashaman did that sort of thing with a bonded AS then the WT would be hugely indignant and call it a crime is of course also totally irrelevant. That the WT would be correct according to our standards but hypocritical according to its own is just an indication of how widely different morals can be interpreted.
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Old 03-05-2017, 07:21 AM
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She was shown using Compulsion from the very beginning, so it's not a huge mystery; we know she used it.
Used it at that point yes. We don't know if she used it to make him have sex with her. It might be where she drew the line. Also you might consider that as saving Warders from that self destructive state of mind is a priority with her, she then wouldn't do anything to make the condition worse. Offer sex? Yes. Attempt to seduce him? Yes. Force it on him? No.

Then again this logic depends on an Aes Sedai being rational so it might very well prove to be wrong.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-2017, 12:14 AM
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Used it at that point yes. We don't know if she used it to make him have sex with her. It might be where she drew the line.
It's just hard to believe that, if she needed it at that point, she wouldn't have needed it to get him to have sex with her.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:16 AM
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If she used compulsion to make him have sex with her she raped him and is one of the biggest monsters in the series.

I don't think we're supposed to read it that way.
She used the bond to soften him up but I think she seduced him.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:04 AM
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It's just hard to believe that, if she needed it at that point, she wouldn't have needed it to get him to have sex with her.
.... Okay I am seriously at a loss on where I should start. It's like you have no idea what it means to be a person instead of a program. You are basically treating Lan as if he were a robot that acted the exact same way in any situation. He is a person with complex and at times conflicted emotions. His mental state is a set of variables not constants. He makes choices that you can't always predict. The number of things Myrelle might have tried in her efforts to save him and the various ways Lan might have reacted add up to a massive amount of plausible scenarios. For example: what if, in private, Myrelle cried because Moiraine was dead? What would Lan feel at that moment? There are so many things I can imagine happening between the two of them before anything sexual took place that I find it seriously baffling that anyone's imagination is incapable of going beyond rape.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2017, 11:37 AM
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I would say that there's a near zero chance that she didn't use compulsion to rape him. I mean, they basically hit us over the head with it.

Granted, she thought she was doing it to save him and she was probably right to an extent. Though Egwene's method of giving him a mission to protect Nynaeve was probably more effective than anything of course.
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  #27  
Old 03-06-2017, 01:36 PM
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I would say that there's a near zero chance that she didn't use compulsion to rape him. I mean, they basically hit us over the head with it.

Granted, she thought she was doing it to save him and she was probably right to an extent. Though Egwene's method of giving him a mission to protect Nynaeve was probably more effective than anything of course.
I don't think RJ intended it to be read as rape.
That is the action of a villain. She is not written as a villain.

The only other example of non - evil character raping someone is tylin forcing Mat at knife point. And even then it is played for "laughs".

But compulsion is a magnitude of evil beyond that.
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  #28  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:02 PM
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I don't think RJ intended it to be read as rape.
That is the action of a villain. She is not written as a villain.

The only other example of non - evil character raping someone is tylin forcing Mat at knife point. And even then it is played for "laughs".

But compulsion is a magnitude of evil beyond that.
I don't think he meant it to be that way either necessarily...its more of a moral shades of gray type of situation. It'd be like a 1st year philosophy class type of question:

1. Is it wrong to rape someone if, in doing so, you save their life?

or

2. Would you kill one person if it meant saving five others? (ie is murder always wrong) In this scenario, all 6 people at risk are innocents so it not a "would you gun down an assailant" type of scenario.
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  #29  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:14 PM
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I don't think he meant it to be that way either necessarily...its more of a moral shades of gray type of situation. It'd be like a 1st year philosophy class type of question:

1. Is it wrong to rape someone if, in doing so, you save their life?

or

2. Would you kill one person if it meant saving five others? (ie is murder always wrong) In this scenario, all 6 people at risk are innocents so it not a "would you gun down an assailant" type of scenario.
A bit tougher: Is it possible to rape a nymphomaniac?
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  #30  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:35 PM
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A bit tougher: Is it possible to rape a nymphomaniac?
Of course it is...just drug them first. A passed out person cannot give consent.
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  #31  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:35 AM
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.... Okay I am seriously at a loss on where I should start. It's like you have no idea what it means to be a person instead of a program. You are basically treating Lan as if he were a robot that acted the exact same way in any situation.
I am not. I am treating Lan as if we know him, and while he was trying to make Nynaeve give up on him I don't think he would have gone so far as to cheat on her without Compulsion.
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  #32  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:10 AM
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I am not. I am treating Lan as if we know him, and while he was trying to make Nynaeve give up on him I don't think he would have gone so far as to cheat on her without Compulsion.
A part of Lan wants to die. Another part insists that his death must be a sacrifice that hastens the Shadow's defeat. He seeks a way to justify his suicide so that he can die in peace. So he won't lead others to death with him. The reason he let Moiraine bond him was the fact that dying while protecting her mission was more meaningful than taking out as many Shadowspawn as he could before he was finally overwhelmed. Well Moiraine is dead so he has to find a different way his death can benefit the war, but there is a new problem. His death would break Nynaeve and knowing that he can't die in peace. So she must be made to hate him. Sleeping with another woman is the ideal solution. Nynaeve will hate him and while he hates himself for hurting her his death will make up for it and Myrelle will pay for hurting Nynaeve too as she has to feel his death through the bond. That is how Lan sees matters.

A keypoint in understanding Lan is seeing that he isn't noble at all, but extremely selfish in a certain roundabout and subtle way. It's all about being able to die in peace. "Death is lighter than a feather. Duty is heavier than a mountain." When he can convince his own pride that he has done his duty, he will let himself embrace the death he has desired for so long.
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  #33  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:45 AM
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Nazbaque, that entirely ignores all the other cases that we know about where a Warder's AS died and the Warder then immediately went into an insane suicidal rage. Do you have a specific reason for thinking that this well documented feature of the Warder bond is nothing more than superstition, or are you merely guessing that it is because that helps your argument?
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:23 AM
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Nazbaque, that entirely ignores all the other cases that we know about where a Warder's AS died and the Warder then immediately went into an insane suicidal rage. Do you have a specific reason for thinking that this well documented feature of the Warder bond is nothing more than superstition, or are you merely guessing that it is because that helps your argument?
Yeah, pretty much this.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:01 PM
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Nazbaque, that entirely ignores all the other cases that we know about where a Warder's AS died and the Warder then immediately went into an insane suicidal rage. Do you have a specific reason for thinking that this well documented feature of the Warder bond is nothing more than superstition, or are you merely guessing that it is because that helps your argument?
When or where did I suggest that the death rage is a superstition? I don't think I did, but either way Lan's case is pseudo death rage Moiraine being alive. I assume it is well mimicked as Myrelle thinks it is genuine, but that doesn't prove there is no difference whatsoever. Then there is the fact that Lan is exceptional even among Warders so it is not safe to assume all rules apply. But you obviously think my analysis doesn't account for it. How?
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:08 PM
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When or where did I suggest that the death rage is a superstition? I don't think I did, but either way Lan's case is pseudo death rage Moiraine being alive. I assume it is well mimicked as Myrelle thinks it is genuine, but that doesn't prove there is no difference whatsoever. Then there is the fact that Lan is exceptional even among Warders so it is not safe to assume all rules apply. But you obviously think my analysis doesn't account for it. How?
The most logical explanation is that the death rage is caused by the sudden severing of the weave (ie ripping it out rather than a clean release) is what causes the death rage so when Moiraine's link to the real world was violently severed like it was, for all intents and purposes as far as Lan was concerned, she died.

Kinda similar to stilling versus burning out probably.
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:10 PM
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The most logical explanation is that the death rage is caused by the sudden severing of the weave (ie ripping it out rather than a clean release) is what causes the death rage so when Moiraine's link to the real world was violently severed like it was, for all intents and purposes as far as Lan was concerned, she died.

Kinda similar to stilling versus burning out probably.
And?
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:01 PM
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And?
ie...its not pseudo or mimicked. Its the same "death rage" that any Warder who has had their AS die.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:12 PM
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ie...its not pseudo or mimicked. Its the same "death rage" that any Warder who has had their AS die.
Meaning that in your opinion the Aes Sedai's actual death is meaningless? Are the emotions she goes through in her final moments also meaningless?

This is still in no way in conflict with my analysis on Lan.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:13 PM
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Meaning that in your opinion the Aes Sedai's actual death is meaningless? Are the emotions she goes through in her final moments also meaningless?

This is still in no way in conflict with my analysis on Lan.
Exactly, clearly it has more to do with how the bond is broken, not the actual event.
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