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  #81  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
While it is true that in-book Elayne isn't ever chastised for her reaction, this kind of reaction (basically an "asking for it") is distressingly common among men when told of a woman in a similar situation in our world. So while I have several issues with how RJ dealt with the whole thing, I don't think the gender inversion is broken by Elayne's reaction.


Its not just that. If you re-read those parts, Mat is genuinely terrified and mortified at several points, especially when she starves him unless he has sex with her.
I agree. I think that the relationship between Mat and Tylin is definitely somewhat a product of RJ's generational upbringing and that it stems quite a bit from the theory that "a man can't be raped by a woman". We know that that theory is completely wrong but RJ was a guy that was born in the 40s and grew up in the 60s so his generational perspective was quite a bit different than ours I think.

So what read to him and many others as "lol, Mat got what was coming to him as a womanizer" is more "Wow, that's pretty bloody disturbing". Even if Mat ended up enjoying it in the end and clearly he did get some pleasure out of it, he was most definitely not a willing partner and Elayne's reaction to his plea about being raped definitely didn't help.
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  #82  
Old 03-22-2017, 08:36 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I agree. I think that the relationship between Mat and Tylin is definitely somewhat a product of RJ's generational upbringing and that it stems quite a bit from the theory that "a man can't be raped by a woman". We know that that theory is completely wrong but RJ was a guy that was born in the 40s and grew up in the 60s so his generational perspective was quite a bit different than ours I think.

So what read to him and many others as "lol, Mat got what was coming to him as a womanizer" is more "Wow, that's pretty bloody disturbing". Even if Mat ended up enjoying it in the end and clearly he did get some pleasure out of it, he was most definitely not a willing partner and Elayne's reaction to his plea about being raped definitely didn't help.
Yup. RJ worked from the assumption that men can't be raped, it seems, so he felt this was an inversion that could be tongue in cheek while, as Harriet has claimed, being maybe informative on the subject of "actual" rape. But the whole house of cards comes crashing down because, of course, this is "actual" rape. Its sad, really. RJ had a chance for a really strong storyline that he frittered away.
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  #83  
Old 03-22-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
My own position is that Alanna is indeed Green, and not Black. Thus, she can not lie when she makes an outright statement as she is doing here:

Now, her logic was seriously flawed, as it depends on the assumption that Bonwhin was correct to try to take control of a ta'veren. However, the fact that she overlooked this (to us obvious) detail can be ascribed to a combination of her emotional state and Verin's meddling. That does not change the fact that she did base her decision in logic.
Behaviour based on flawed logic is not logical behaviour. The assumption that her emotional state is getting in the way is a sound one. It is quite expected that she is not capable of logical behaviour in this state which you yourself just stated. Now me I'm fairly sure she can't be logical even when she has her emotions in check, but here that is something of a moot point.

Now it is shown several times that Aes Sedai can be untruthful so long as they themselves believe it. Many illogical people believe themselves to be logical. Thus Alanna's claim at being logical proves nothing.

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Alanna tried to control Rand, as the following part shows:


And as for the comparison with rape, that's one that is straight from the books:
It is Alanna's view on the matter that counts not the world's and not Cadsuane's. If Alanna doesn't acknowledge the harm she is misguided but not evil.
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Now, which specific quotes can you provide to show that Alanna did not act based on logic, and that what she did was not considered comparable to rape?

Alternatively: what quotes are you willing to produce to defend rape as "not evil"?
You haven't yet provided any proof on her being logical. Quite the reverse. You also have not provided a quote in which Alanna or Myrelle acknowledges that forceful bonding is the same as rape.

Rape not being harmful is a bit tricky, but it would depend on how one defines rape. It is certainly difficult to imagine how one might rape for the greater good. If the species were on the brink of extinction, one could say that breeding was a duty regardless of emotions or sexual preferences, but in those circumstances the rapist isn't allowed to enjoy the act which might defeat the whole purpose. Then again there is such a thing as guilty pleasure which just might give us some wriggle room. But this doesn't seem to apply to Lan and Myrelle in any case.
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  #84  
Old 03-22-2017, 09:42 AM
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Behaviour based on flawed logic is not logical behaviour. The assumption that her emotional state is getting in the way is a sound one. It is quite expected that she is not capable of logical behaviour in this state which you yourself just stated. Now me I'm fairly sure she can't be logical even when she has her emotions in check, but here that is something of a moot point.
Using that standard, no human can ever use logic at all, since we can never be perfect.
Of course, you seem to use a similar "only absolute evil is real evil" standard, so that figures.

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Now it is shown several times that Aes Sedai can be untruthful so long as they themselves believe it. Many illogical people believe themselves to be logical. Thus Alanna's claim at being logical proves nothing.
It proves that she believed that what she did was logical.
Actually, I agree with her there. I think that the flaw in her reasoning was not in her logic, but in her assumptions. It is the Garbage In, Garbage Out problem, wherein you will end up with untrustworthy results even with impeccable logic if you start out from faulty axioms.

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It is Alanna's view on the matter that counts not the world's and not Cadsuane's. If Alanna doesn't acknowledge the harm she is misguided but not evil.
Using that same standard, no psychopath is evil either. After all, they don't consider their actions to be harmful; at most they think they made a mistake in being found out.

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Rape not being harmful is a bit tricky, but it would depend on how one defines rape. It is certainly difficult to imagine how one might rape for the greater good.
Defenders of slavery in the USA managed that one. They started out by assuming that men are lustful and violent. Then they added that they wanted to protect white women from that. So the fact that slave owners raped their female slaves might not be nice, but it was definitely for the good. You can read this in this post, which is part of a blog on the preludes to the American Civil War. It also quotes a former slave woman who didn't agree with the sentiment, but I suspect that when she still was a slave no one had bothered to ask her.

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But this doesn't seem to apply to Lan and Myrelle in any case.
In that case, Myrelle's argument is that she is saving his life. She may even have been right, though (as Egwene demonstrated) there was a far simpler and more moral alternative to her course of action.
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  #85  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:07 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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It is Alanna's view on the matter that counts not the world's and not Cadsuane's. If Alanna doesn't acknowledge the harm she is misguided but not evil.
Double standards, much? You claimed Semirhage's views on her actions don't matter. You claimed she knowingly does harm, whereas in her view, she's just taking a little payment for saving someone's life. Guess she's not evil either eh?
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  #86  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:39 AM
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Using that standard, no human can ever use logic at all, since we can never be perfect.
Of course, you seem to use a similar "only absolute evil is real evil" standard, so that figures.
We can work around our limits. It is about admitting that logic is above you. You can't decide what it is you can only observe it. It is quite depressing how often the logical answer is "we don't know".

The point in this is that when an assumption demands that someone is logical it can so easily fall apart simply because being logical is so damn rare.
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It proves that she believed that what she did was logical.
Actually, I agree with her there. I think that the flaw in her reasoning was not in her logic, but in her assumptions. It is the Garbage In, Garbage Out problem, wherein you will end up with untrustworthy results even with impeccable logic if you start out from faulty axioms.
Faulty axioms are flawed logic in themselves. What was the logical ground for making such an assumption? Obviously flawed as the assumption was false. Then it becomes a basic logical clause. Logical conclusion(True) AND flawed axiom(False) = False. Thus Alanna is not logical.

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Using that same standard, no psychopath is evil either. After all, they don't consider their actions to be harmful; at most they think they made a mistake in being found out.
Not all psychopaths are like that Gonzo. Some truly don't understand that what they do is wrong. Some believe themselves next thing to a god and entitled to cause as much harm as they want. The former is dangerous but not evil, the latter is evil.
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Defenders of slavery in the USA managed that one. They started out by assuming that men are lustful and violent. Then they added that they wanted to protect white women from that. So the fact that slave owners raped their female slaves might not be nice, but it was definitely for the good. You can read this in this post, which is part of a blog on the preludes to the American Civil War. It also quotes a former slave woman who didn't agree with the sentiment, but I suspect that when she still was a slave no one had bothered to ask her.
I meant a legitimate greater good. Thinking up bullshit excuses is different. So is hiding behind a legitimate greater good when in reality you're doing exactly what you wanted.

Seanchan "greater good" may not really count, but even if it did a sul'dam that took pleasure in disciplining the damane was evil. The greater good was just an excuse not the actual motive.
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In that case, Myrelle's argument is that she is saving his life. She may even have been right, though (as Egwene demonstrated) there was a far simpler and more moral alternative to her course of action.
Assuming Lan was forced at all which remains unproven. The point would still be in Myrelle accepting that it was a wrong thing to do. She is from Ebou Dar after all and the people there had some peculiar notions on what women can do to men as demonstrated by their queen.

But it seems you missed my point in how one defines a rape. Tell me Gonzo, do you understand the term "masochist". If you do I invite you to consider the difference between being raped and being ravished.
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  #87  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:52 AM
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Double standards, much? You claimed Semirhage's views on her actions don't matter. You claimed she knowingly does harm, whereas in her view, she's just taking a little payment for saving someone's life. Guess she's not evil either eh?
Do you actually understand the word "knowingly"? If in her view she is claiming a payment she still understands that it causes harm. Moreover she isn't causing the harm because she thinks it is necessary, but because she wants to.

Alanna's view was that Rand needed to be under Tower control. She is wrong as we know but she did not bond him from personal desire using the greater good as an excuse. Misguided is not the same as evil.
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  #88  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:54 AM
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If you do I invite you to consider the difference between being raped and being ravished.
Which of those two is a closer analogue to the way in which Rand was bonded?
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  #89  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:10 AM
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Which of those two is a closer analogue to the way in which Rand was bonded?
I was thinking of Mat in this one actually. But since you ask I'd say what Alanna did to Rand would be one and what Elayne did to Birgitte would be the other. That was forced bonding too after all. Curious how it has been absent from the discussion.
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  #90  
Old 03-22-2017, 11:36 AM
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I was thinking of Mat in this one actually. But since you ask I'd say what Alanna did to Rand would be one and what Elayne did to Birgitte would be the other. That was forced bonding too after all. Curious how it has been absent from the discussion.
I think that because Elayne did it as a purely selfless act to save her life...there were no ulterior or selfish motives on her end like there are with Alanna.

I also imagine that Elayne would have willingly released the bond had Birgitte requested it. There is no evidence that supports that supposition but I base it on what we know about her character and her striving to be a good, fair ruler.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:40 AM
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What Elayne did was not aimed at getting power over Birgitte. The only goal was saving her life. If it had been possible, then Elayne would have asked, and she would probably have honoured a refusal.
What Elayne did was emergency medical aid.

In the case of Mat, I would say that it was rape. Legally all right, obviously, what with Tylin being queen and all, but rape nonetheless.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:50 AM
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What Elayne did was not aimed at getting power over Birgitte. The only goal was saving her life. If it had been possible, then Elayne would have asked, and she would probably have honoured a refusal.
What Elayne did was emergency medical aid.

In the case of Mat, I would say that it was rape. Legally all right, obviously, what with Tylin being queen and all, but rape nonetheless.
So you don't understand the difference between being raped and being ravished. Not sure if you have fully explored the concept of a masochist either.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:00 PM
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So you don't understand the difference between being raped and being ravished. Not sure if you have fully explored the concept of a masochist either.
Mat was 100% raped by Tylin.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:15 PM
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Mat was 100% raped by Tylin.
Not sure if you truly understand the difference. Do you understand and apply it to this or is it that you don't understand and can't see other alternatives?
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:39 PM
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Not sure if you truly understand the difference. Do you understand and apply it to this or is it that you don't understand and can't see other alternatives?
He said no, he tried to physically stop her. She then pulled a knife on him and forced him.

And yes, I do understand the definitions of both words. Regardless, Mat was raped at knifepoint.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:51 PM
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He said no, he tried to physically stop her. She then pulled a knife on him and forced him.

And yes, I do understand the definitions of both words. Regardless, Mat was raped at knifepoint.
Seeing as that might result in either one you clearly don't. You are focusing on what happens before the act when the difference is in what happens after and during.

I'll ask again. Do you understand the concept of a masochist?
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:54 PM
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A somewhat more difficult case: was Morgase raped or ravished by Rahvin?
I would say she was raped, but if I understand Naz correctly then he would say that she wasn't.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Not sure if you truly understand the difference. Do you understand and apply it to this or is it that you don't understand and can't see other alternatives?
Here is how ravished is defined:

archaic
seize and carry off (someone) by force.

dated
(of a man) force (a woman or girl) to have sexual intercourse against her will; rape.

literary
fill (someone) with intense delight; enrapture.
"ravished by a sunny afternoon, she had agreed without even thinking"

Barring the final definition, which says nothing about consent, the original meanings of ravish are quite clearly synonymous with rape.

The third meaning definitely cannot be used for sexual pleasure enforced at knife point.

Put simply, in its original meaning, ravish already contained an implication of force (it comes from the latin rapere which means "to seize" and is also the root for rape.

In modern literary usage, that implicit concept of force is removed, but its pretty clear that if you "fill someone with intense delight" against their will, modern usage calls for using the word "rape". Thus, the difference between rape and ravish in modern usage is at least partially about the implicit connotation of force.

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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Do you actually understand the word "knowingly"? If in her view she is claiming a payment she still understands that it causes harm. Moreover she isn't causing the harm because she thinks it is necessary, but because she wants to.
Are you claiming sul'dam and Seanchan society at large don't know that the a'dam causes pain and harm? They're accidentally causing pain while thinking they're coddling the damane?

No. They know they cause harm. They believe that that harm is acceptable because it makes them feel safer. They are knowingly trading the harm caused to channelers for their personal sense of security and control. This is not all that far from Semirhage wanting to trade her ability to Heal for her personal pleasure and sense of control.

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Alanna's view was that Rand needed to be under Tower control. She is wrong as we know but she did not bond him from personal desire using the greater good as an excuse. Misguided is not the same as evil.
So how do you square that with Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust because they felt it was the right thing to do for the Reich? Surely, several of them genuinely believed that, rather than wanting to do so out of any "personal desire". Were they merely misguided?
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:02 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
A somewhat more difficult case: was Morgase raped or ravished by Rahvin?
I would say she was raped, but if I understand Naz correctly then he would say that she wasn't.
Think of compulsion as a fantasy analogue of GHB or any other date rape drug. The conclusions draw themselves...
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:37 PM
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Nazbaque Nazbaque is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
A somewhat more difficult case: was Morgase raped or ravished by Rahvin?
I would say she was raped, but if I understand Naz correctly then he would say that she wasn't.
Well that is a bit tougher.

For the moment I'll go on a tangent. Is blackmail a robbery or is it a completely different crime? If the price of silence is sex rather than money, is it then rape or simply blackmail? The victim is after all giving consent.

By my thinking it is the harm that defines rape and since the blackmail victim would feel sexually violated and thus in spite of technical consent what happened was a rape.

I think it is safe to say that once Morgase found that she had been under Compulsion she felt sexually violated and thus what happened was a rape.

There are many ways to force someone to have sex. Drugs, blackmail, physical force. If they feel violated they were raped. If they feel excited they were ravished.

Legally it is best to treat it as rape regardless, but that is because it is practically impossible to prove how mental damage was caused.

Mat was forced yes. Did he feel violated? To me it doesn't seem so. More that he lost his masochistic virginity and was somewhat confused by the whole thing. He certainly doesn't act as if he were traumatised.
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