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  #21  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:36 PM
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Among secondary plots to cut, I think the Black Ajah hunt has a lot more promise than something like the Shaido. I don't think they should cut the Shaido entirely, but Faile being kidnapped and rescued should be one season-long, at most. Similarly, I would curb Elayne's struggle for the throne a lot more.

As for Min, Elayne and Aviendha being combined into one... I don't want that. But I'm also unsure how the whole "three women fall for one guy" thing will play out on screen.
They have to do the BA Hunt, as without it it would be nigh impossible to set up the climactic reunion of all the threadlines in Falme at the denouement of tGH. I would condense the number of Black sisters involved, but Liandrin's role is quite necessary in those early books, as is Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin.

As for the girls, I would not be at all surprised if they combined Min and Elayne, which is unfortunate, as Min is one of my two favorite female characters (along with Moiraine) in WoT. And, much like with Arianne Martell, one of the best female characters in aSoIaF, I could easily see Min getting the axe. Here's hoping that this kid writer, like me, loves Min and hates Egwene - I'd happily have them combine Egwene and Nynaeve into just Nynaeve - though they should perhaps call the character Egwene, so that the pairing is Egwene (Gwenevere) with Lan (Lancelot), and then keep Min and Elayne as separate characters. Alongside that, I'd make Elayne the Daughter of the Nine Moons (and hence with Tuon cut) and have her end up with Mat instead of Rand, and have Aviendha end up with Perrin, have there be no Faile, and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.

Last edited by Kimon; 04-22-2017 at 02:40 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:52 PM
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I'm with you on the Black Ajah, but dropping Egwene to keep Min is insane.

The rest of what you're proposing just completely alters the story. Needlessly too.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2017, 02:59 PM
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They have to do the BA Hunt, as without it it would be nigh impossible to set up the climactic reunion of all the threadlines in Falme at the denouement of tGH. I would condense the number of Black sisters involved, but Liandrin's role is quite necessary in those early books, as is Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin.

As for the girls, I would not be at all surprised if they combined Min and Elayne, which is unfortunate, as Min is one of my two favorite female characters (along with Moiraine) in WoT. And, much like with Arianne Martell, one of the best female characters in aSoIaF, I could easily see Min getting the axe. Here's hoping that this kid writer, like me, loves Min and hates Egwene - I'd happily have them combine Egwene and Nynaeve into just Nynaeve - though they should perhaps call the character Egwene, so that the pairing is Egwene (Gwenevere) with Lan (Lancelot), and then keep Min and Elayne as separate characters. Alongside that, I'd make Elayne the Daughter of the Nine Moons (and hence with Tuon cut) and have her end up with Mat instead of Rand, and have Aviendha end up with Perrin, have there be no Faile, and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.
You can keep the BA in the story but you don't need the multi-book BA hunt in the tower/rebel camp that dragged on and on and on.

With Elayne's struggle, that could be parts of 1-2 episodes at most rather than a couple seasons of dragging on and on.

Same with Faile's kidnapping and/or the Shaido in general. Maybe mention the Shaido in the background but focusing any time on it along with the Perrin/Faile fiasco that was brutal to read let alone watch it for a full season.

I don't know that the 3 women falling for 1 man would play out well at all. Its pretty creepy/weird when you really think about it...and one of the weaker parts of the story IMHO.
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  #24  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:13 PM
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I'm with you on the Black Ajah, but dropping Egwene to keep Min is insane.

The rest of what you're proposing just completely alters the story. Needlessly too.
You only say that because you are an Egwene-fanboy.

All of those changes would streamline the story without changing it in any significant way. It would simplify and solve the problem of Rand's polygamy, and would solve all the problems with Egwene - i.e. being older, and a former Wisdom, she would be less unfit for being the Amyrlin, she would be less of a bitch to her friends (since she would be more Nynaeve and less Egwene personality-wise) and, as she would end up with Lan instead of Gawyn, Gawyn, another obnoxious and pointless character, could be excised. It would allow Egwene to become the noble character that she should have been - Nynaeve. Either that or I'd make Egwene go Black Ajah, becoming the new Chosen (instead of Taim, who obviously would be in this iteration, as he should have been in the books, just a pseudonym for Demandred) out of jealousy for Rand stealing all of her glory.

Last edited by Kimon; 04-22-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:53 PM
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You only say that because you are an Egwene-fanboy.
And you say the opposite because you're an Egwene hater. You don't have to like Egwene to know she's a major character in the story, much more so than Min is.


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All of those changes would streamline the story without changing it in any significant way.


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It would simplify and solve the problem of Rand's polygamy, and would solve all the problems with Egwene - i.e. being older, and a former Wisdom, she would be less unfit for being the Amyrlin, she would be less of a bitch to her friends (since she would be more Nynaeve and less Egwene personality-wise) and, as she would end up with Lan instead of Gawyn, Gawyn, another obnoxious and pointless character, could be excised. It would allow Egwene to become the noble character that she should have been - Nynaeve. Either that or I'd make Egwene go Black Ajah, becoming the new Chosen (instead of Taim, who obviously would be in this iteration, as he should have been in the books, just a pseudonym for Demandred) out of jealousy for Rand stealing all of her glory.
Oh wow, thank heavens your personal bias isn't showing or anything...

Last edited by fionwe1987; 04-22-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:56 PM
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You can keep the BA in the story but you don't need the multi-book BA hunt in the tower/rebel camp that dragged on and on and on.

With Elayne's struggle, that could be parts of 1-2 episodes at most rather than a couple seasons of dragging on and on.

Same with Faile's kidnapping and/or the Shaido in general. Maybe mention the Shaido in the background but focusing any time on it along with the Perrin/Faile fiasco that was brutal to read let alone watch it for a full season.

I don't know that the 3 women falling for 1 man would play out well at all. Its pretty creepy/weird when you really think about it...and one of the weaker parts of the story IMHO.
I agree that the Black Ajah hunt shouldn't drag... but in the books, it really doesn't. It is a chapter here, a chapter there. It is quite an economic arc, actually. And you want the hunt for them to be multi-season because it emphasizes the threat they could be, and makes you question the Aes Sedai around our major characters.

I doubt they'll need to spend all that much screen time to have the BA hunt shown. Maybe reduce the number of sisters involved, but the basic story can stay the same, leading up to Verin's reveal.
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  #27  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:00 PM
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I am always excited to hear any news about the new TV series, but I was extremely disappointed to find out Red Eagle was still involved with it. And I don't know how to feel about Sony being involved.

I can't even say that I'm cautiously optimistic, like Dav. I just don't know how to feel.
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  #28  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:02 PM
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I agree that the Black Ajah hunt shouldn't drag... but in the books, it really doesn't. It is a chapter here, a chapter there. It is quite an economic arc, actually. And you want the hunt for them to be multi-season because it emphasizes the threat they could be, and makes you question the Aes Sedai around our major characters.

I doubt they'll need to spend all that much screen time to have the BA hunt shown. Maybe reduce the number of sisters involved, but the basic story can stay the same, leading up to Verin's reveal.
Yeah, maybe make it more of an underlying threat from day 1...and condense it a bit instead of chapter after chapter of AS politicking. Good point.

It definitely needs some streamlining which we can all agree.
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  #29  
Old 04-22-2017, 04:15 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Yeah, maybe make it more of an underlying threat from day 1...and condense it a bit instead of chapter after chapter of AS politicking. Good point.

It definitely needs some streamlining which we can all agree.
Yes. Frankly, I wouldn't hesitate to make characters like Alviarin more significant early on. Tower politics can play well on screen, and the BA's scheming to remove Siuan, divide the Tower, and keep it too split to make an impact on the Last Battle can be an interesting story that makes the Shadow look less idiotic. Aes Sedai scheming a bickering also looks less idiotic when you're aware that a lot of it is precipitated by Black sisters who want dysfunction.

In my recent re-reads, I was looking at how confirmed Blacks were involved in what seemed like annoying Aes Sedai politics and it is kind of insane how effectively they placed themselves in almost every Aes Sedai power center in a position of authority. Only Cadsuane's group escaped this.

So amping that up can help a lot. Show us some of the players, make us doubt everybody, and add a very good actress to play Verin, and this can be a good story arc that spans most of the series, and its conclusion can be even more explosive in impact than it was in the books.

I'd say if they introduce Saerin, Alviarin, Pevara and Sheriam early enough and build on them... they'd have a good arc to follow, with the other players either merged or kept mostly in the background.
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  #30  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:56 PM
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I've been thinking about it, and the only viable option I can come up with is for them to hire every member of Theoryland as creative consultants and move us all into a mansion in Hollywood or wherever for the next 10 years. And an annual salary of $200,000. And cameo appearances as innkeepers and servants. But I don't see any other way they can do this right.
It'd be like Survivor...only with more murder.
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:21 PM
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I am always excited to hear any news about the new TV series, but I was extremely disappointed to find out Red Eagle was still involved with it. And I don't know how to feel about Sony being involved.

I can't even say that I'm cautiously optimistic, like Dav. I just don't know how to feel.
Credit, is just that, credit. T
Likely terms if the settlement. They get their name attached to the project and possibly little else. There's nothing that guarantees at this point that they have any say with the series.
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  #32  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:25 PM
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Something I posted over at Westeros in response to a suggestion that they just do 7 seasons covering 2 books per season:

I think something in the middle is more appropriate. Ie, some seasons have more than 2 books, others less, and then get to a total of 7, at worse 8, seasons. For instance, I'd say 1 and part of 2 make for a good Season 1. End on Egwene captured, Nynaeve and Elayne hiding from the Seanchan, and Rand and co. stuck in the Portal worlds.

Then wrap the Seanchan story, and jump to Dragon Reborn and finish with that. I feel Shadow Rising is too different in tone to Dragon Reborn for them to fit into one season. The "Dark One" dead and Rand acknowledging he's the DR makes for too good a season finale, and too poor a mid-season stop, too.

Then Shadow Rising can make a great Season 3. You end with the Two Rivers saved, Rand gaining leadership of the Aiel, Nynaeve battling Moghedien, and Elaida taking over the Tower. I'd say something like Rand learning the history of the Aiel in Rhuidean can be an episode in itself. I might make sense for Rand to reach the outskirts of Cairhein by the end of the season, though, or maybe skip that part entirely.

Season 4, I think, would make sense as book 5 and the starting third of book 6, which is pretty slow and can be dispensed with in an episode or so as a kind of slower finale coming from the high of the battle at the docks, and Caemlyn taken by Rand.

This is where I would start switching things up a bit. In the grand scheme of things, I think things like the takeover of Illian make more sense if they come before Rand is kidnapped, as that marks a very dramatic turning point in the series, and shouldn't be buried mid-season.

Post taking Caemlyn, I'd have Rand start the push for Sammael and Illian right away, while also dealing with the two embassies, in Season 5. This spices up the slower lead up to his kidnapping, and gives Egwene more to do than twiddle her thumbs till she's asked to be Amyrlin. I'd fold in Mat and have Perrin come from the Two Rivers too, and basically have the focus of this season be Sammael, which works since even the Aes Sedai in Salidar were aware of him and worried about him. And rather than have Elayne and Nynaeve find Moghedien right away, have them take time to track her in Salidar, which gives them something to do this season. You have a mid-season big blowup with Sammael being killed in Shadar Logoth, and Egwene taking her penance with the Aiel and going to Salidar to be raised Amyrlin.

At this point, Rand feels stretched thin and wants Elayne in Caemlyn, so he sends Mat and the Band after Egwene to get Elayne. We're kind of where book 6 was at with Rand and Perrin in Cairhein. At this point, I'd have Rand kidnapped, and I'd accelerate Egwene's season 7 storyline of taking control of the Aes Sedai, so Season 5 ends with Dumai's Wells and the first Aes Sedai swearing to Rand, matched with the Aes Sedai who swear to Egwene, and Nynaeve and Elayne using the Bowl of the Winds.

Season 6 then covers most of books 8, 9, 10 and most of 11. I'd have Perrin with Rand as he attacks the Seanchan, and quickly get to the point where Rand's insanity has him nearly destroy his own army along with the Seanchan. This precipitates Rand running away to try cleanse Saidin, leaving Perrin with most of his army which Perrin has to slowly march northward to Andor, neatly excising the Shaido, and giving Perrin good reason to be where he's supposed to be for book 13's events.

Egwene meanwhile dupes the Aes Sedai into declaring war on Elaida and Travels her entire army to Tar Valon, while Elayne's Andor storyline gets a radical acceleration, sans any bathing.

Mat kidnaps Tuon, and most of their adventuring till the end of book 11 can be covered here.

I'd end Season 6 on Rand's encounter with Semirhage, Egwene captured, Mat parting from Tuon, and Elayne winning the throne of Andor.

Season 7 can be Books 12-13. None of the added silliness of Rand meeting Egwene and giving her a one month ultimatum would be needed. Just have Rand and Egwene be the focus of the story, with Perrin, Elayne and Mat getting their more important events added to make this a pretty great season leading up to...

A shorter Season 8 which is just the Last Battle.

Thoughts?

ETA: This is a very rough sketch of an outline, and obviously it focuses only on the main characters. I'm sure a 100 different things can go wrong with Sammael's fall coming before Dumai's wells, but I'd love to see if that idea is feasible.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 04-22-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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  #33  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:06 AM
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... and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.
Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:40 AM
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Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?
The only combatants at the Wells that are really needed are the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man, but removing the Shaido and Perrin's force does obviously negatively curtail the scale of the battle, not to mention the impact on the just how much more impressive the even barely trained Asha'man are than the Aes Sedai, thus serving as foreshadowing of the Seanchan sortie on Tar Valon. So better to keep the Shaido around at least until the Wells.

That still leaves the problem of what to do with Perrin afterwards, but that is largely an issue of how important one considers Faile's kidnapping to be, or, for that matter, how important the Prophet. I'd excise both the kidnapping (if not Faile entirely), and the Prophet. The only really important link here was that it was a way to bring Perrin into contact with the Seanchan, but the infancy of that alliance could just as well be left only to Mat (along with Rand's failed early efforts - i.e. his meeting with Semirhage). Perhaps better to simply have Rand send Perrin to reconnoiter and then join the rebels in Salidar.

Regardless, if this ever actually is made, significant alterations will need to be made for the sake of concision. Whatever choices they make will almost certainly annoy many of us - or perhaps please some, and annoy others.

Moreover, any major changes will create problems. For instance, if attempting to solve the unpleasantness of Rand's polygamy by just having him marry Min, and then have Mat end up with Elayne, how then do you bind the Seanchan to the alliance without Mat's marriage to Tuon? Do you combine Min and Elayne into one character? As the channeler princess? The seer? As a channeling princess with foretelling? Certainly it is Min's ability that is the more important. Is Aviendha needed to bind the Aiel to Rand, and vice versa, or can her character be completely eliminated? Do you keep all the Forsaken, or do you drop a few of them? A few of them are absolutely essential - Ishamael, Asmodean, Sammael, Lanfear, Mesaana, Aginor (though mostly just as Osan'gar), and Rahvin. But if Taim isn't Demandred, is Demandred really necessary? Are Semirhage and Graendal? Balthamel (though, admittedly as Aran'gar, he/she is somewhat important)? Be'lal? I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few of them get the axe.

Last edited by Kimon; 04-23-2017 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:08 AM
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I think the characters are mostly essential, and can't be reduced in number.

However, Books 2 and 3 involve much contrived travel and could be combined. Falme plotline seems to have been designed to let Seanchan arrive but not disrupt any major plot locations.
I'd have the Seanchan land in Tear first, and place Falme as a peninsula on the coast of Tear. Combine the two times the girls left the Tower into one. The city of Tear is taken by Seanchan, but the stone stands for a few days. Mat and Perrin and Egwene each collect some Aiel on the way. Rand and friends break in, the horn is blown, the Seanchan are repulsed before they can take the Stone. Almost every plotline can be brought to the same point in less time.

If needed to appease fans, have the Seanchan continent curl south of Tear, like a big crescent instead of just being to the west. Inconsequential change to map simplifies complex travel arrangements.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
If needed to appease fans, have the Seanchan continent curl south of Tear, like a big crescent instead of just being to the west. Inconsequential change to map simplifies complex travel arrangements.
But that would remove the Land of the Madmen!?! That'd be as bad as leaving Bombadil out of LotR!!!
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:54 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?
Good point. So have them destroyed at Dumai's Wells, then. Certainly, an entire Aiel Clan being first held at bay by the Aes Sedai then destroyed by the Asha'man give scope to the power of channeling.

By the way, I'm liking the idea of combining Tear and Falme. The Seanchan attack Tear, Egwene is captured and kept as a damane there, Rand goes to rescue her, in the process breaks into the Stone of Tear (which manages to hold against the Seanchan invasion, maybe because Be'lal is there), the Horn is blown, Rand fights Ishamael in the skies with Callandor, Egwene is rescued, and Tear comes under Rand's control.

The idea is rather neat. In both Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn, you have Rand running away from his identity (as a channeler, then as the Dragon Reborn, but both can be combined). You have the girls leaving the Tower to help Rand, and the same Black Ajah crowd manipulating events to draw Rand into a trap. One or more of the girls get captured, and get rescued. Combining the storming of the Stone of Tear and the Seanchan being pushed back would make for a really explosive climax, while preserving a lot of the story, and removing many repetitive elements in books 2 and 3.

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Old 04-23-2017, 06:43 PM
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Per Dragonmount, Red Eagle has nothing at all to do with the actual production...so that's a good sign at least.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:28 AM
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Of course, having the Seanchan besiege Be'lal would somewhat interfere with the Aiel sneaking into the Stone unobserved. Not to mention that it would make it a lot harder for Elaida and her cronies* to doubt the existence of the Seanchan later on, when they've shown themselves in such a blatantly obvious way.

* Elaida would probably manage it; she's very good at not believing what she doesn't want to believe. Other AS don't have that Talent, though, and their training may not suffice on its own here.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:38 AM
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Of course, having the Seanchan besiege Be'lal would somewhat interfere with the Aiel sneaking into the Stone unobserved.
The Seanchan would have better patrols, I suppose, but you just make the Aiel better at sneaking. This is a pretty minor issue.

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Not to mention that it would make it a lot harder for Elaida and her cronies* to doubt the existence of the Seanchan later on, when they've shown themselves in such a blatantly obvious way.
Hardly. Throw in the Forsaken in the Stone, the Dragon Reborn appearing in the air, Callandor, etc. and you have a lot of fantastical stories emerging from this place. It is very easy then to ignore the stuff you don't want to believe.
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