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2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
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Last ten comments at Theoryland.
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Last ten theories at Theoryland.
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I think you may have come across something. I also don't believe that Verin is part of the Black Ajah. But I don't think Verin is under complusion. What I do think is that Verin is an Aes Sedai that follows Lanfear willing.
My proof as is follows. Since I haven't read the books numerous times I will try to pull this from memory, please correct me. The reason that I believe that Verin is not under complusion is because once Lanfear died complusion would have been taken off and Verin would stop her eratic behavior. Also I believe it was Verin who attacked a golden hair woman (who many believe to be Moiraine)in the forest in Winter's Heart with the OP
Well, I am not sure if the erratic behvavior should stop, because compulsion creates permanent "damage". However, the Verin in the later half of the books acts differently than the Verin we come to know in the first three.
I think it is an interesting theory, and while I don't necessarily agree with a Lanfear connection, there is definitely more to Verin than meets the eye.
If I could play Devil's Avocado for a minute.... 2 points:
1. Surely Verin calling the DO "Great Lord" was merely her quoting the writings she had just translated from Fain's cell wall. That is how I've always taken it.
2. You point out that Verin tells Rand he has been transported by a Portal Stone more recently than she has (TGH Ch37 "What might be" pg442) . What you are missing/forgetting is that when Rand questions Verin about this, she tells him she has never used one, which is why his use is more recent than hers. This could be another lie or twist of words I guess ("used" and "transported by" not necessarily being the same thing). While there are several examples (of which you have mentioned many) of Verin acting or answering suspiciously, I've always taken this one straight up front. This could make me look a bit foolish, but it wouldn't be the first time.
I don't think that 'used' and 'transported' mean quite the same thing. She could have never 'used' a portal stone while still being transported about by one if Lanfear was the one who channelled in it.
One problem, however. We DO get a Verin POV in the opening of aCoS. She's doing, something, something kind of like compulsion, on the sisters who Rand captured at Dumai's Wells. These sisters later all swear to Rand. It's an incomplete, hasty, and poorly "stitched" compulsion weave, but there you have it. However, she does have the word-mincing tone of an Aes Sedai to her thoughts as she does it, something like: "This is a perfectly harmless weave." Of course, it wouldn't be the weave that killed her.- Now, I'm just taking that out of memory, but that's the gist as far as i know. Verin is not performing a weave on a person that can kill, but the eventual rebellion of the mind or whatever against the weave will kill the person. However, she is not lying, but barely. To me, this suggests that she has not broken any of the Three Oaths, which means that she is not BA.
As for serving Lanfear, there are several problems with this theory. First of all, would Lanfear let a full AS, one that cannot lie, roam around, knowing full well that at least one of the Forsaken is on the Tower grounds? Not only that, but would'nt she kill Verin before she left, so nobody would know what was going on? She could even blame it on the BA by that time. I don't think Lanfear is one to leave loose ends like that lying around for anyone to see.
One more point PRO your theory is this: Verin remarks in TGH, i don't wanna look up the chapter (yeah, i'm lazy), that, unfortunately, Dark Prophecies have as much a tendency to be fulfilled as the others. A strange remark. How many dark prophecies has she known of? I thought I read around then that all Trollocs write are taunts, insults, and rude suggestions. Also, there are the pleas we hear so much about at Shadar Logoth, but that's gone now. The point is, when the hell were there enough Dark Prophecies laying around, already fulfilled or soon to be, for Verin to study them and say "Hey, these Myrddraal aren't just teasing us, they are telling us what's gonna happen." So that's another oddity in the stack, your favor.
I still don't think Lanfear would let Verin run around with the knowledge of her she would supposedly have, though. I think Lanfear would use her to give Egwene the ter'angreal, to find out what's going on inside the Tower, and then dispose of her.
I am on the Fence on this one it certainly would explain ALOT of Verins behavior i am with the Tamyrlin on one thing for sure though i dont belive that Verin is BA but i have heard a few ideas thrown around that she might not be bound with the lie oath i think that is possible...now as for Verin working for lanfear there do seem to be some certain instances one thing i would like to say is that for a Brown Verin does not miss a beat and she seems to know alot if her and Lanfear do have a connection maybe Lanfear pormised her loads of info on the past in exchange for some deeds ones that would not exaclty go out of line but not exactly ethical either just a though definitely a interesting idea though
I think that Verin was manipulated by Lanfear, but not willingly working with her. Verin has simply done too much "for the Light" for me to believe that she is a darkfriend, but some of her behavior is still suspicious (Compulsion, anyone?).
I would like to add another thing to this. When Lanfear aka Selene visits Mat in The White Tower, it seems that Lanfear knows that Mat blew the Horn of Valere and that it is in The White Tower. It is not clearly said, but there are hints:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 20 - Visitations
"These... Aes Sedai mean to use you, but you will like it, in the main, I think. And accept it. There is no need to convince you to seek out glory.”
“Use me?” The memory returned of him thinking that, but about Rand, that the Aes Sedai meant to use Rand, not him. They've no bloody use for me. Light, they can't have! “What do you mean. I'm no one important. I am no use to anyone but myself. What kind of glory?”
“I knew that would pull you. You, above all."
Her smile made his head spin. He scrubbed a hand through his hair. The blanket slipped, and he caught it hastily before it could fall. “Now listen, they are not interested in me.” What about me sounding the Horn? “I am just a farmer.” (...) Selene shook her head as if she had heard his thoughts. “You are more important than you yet know. Certainly more important than these so-called Aes Sedai know. You can have glory, if you know enough not to trust them.” (...) “These Aes Sedai do not even realize how important you are, and he will try to dissuade or kill you, but I can give you what you desire.”
“He?” said Mat sharply. Kill me? Light, it is Rand they were after, not me. How does she know about the dagger? I suppose the whole Tower knows. “Who wants to kill me?”
Selene's mouth thigtened as if he had said too much. “You know what you want, Mat, and I know it every bit as well as you. You must choose who you will trust to gain it for you. I admit I will use you. These Aes Sedai would never do that. I will lead you to wealth and glory.. They will keep you tied to a leash until you die”
The first thing to note is that Lanfear speaks about ‘glory', just like when she spoke to Rand in TGH regarding to blowing the Horn. Lanfear takes it as granted that Mat will gain glory, he only has to choose who to gain it for him. Which glory does Lanfear mean? This must be the glory as Hornblower. She also states that the Aes Sedai are going to use him. Two pages later the Amyrlin Seat enters Mat's room and tells him she's gonna use him as Hornblower. Coincidence? And why is ‘until you die' added? Is this nothing special or does this mean that they only have a use for Mat when he is alive, since he is tied to the Horn? Second thing is that when Mat thinks about him sounding the Horn, it is almost immediately followed by ‘Selene shook her head as if she had heard his thoughts.' Does Lanfear indeed know what Mat is thinking about? In short, the whole passage seems to be hinting about Lanfear knowing of Mat and the Horn. And the only persons who know about the Horn and Mat are Siuan Sanche, Rand, Perrin, the girls, Moiraine and, indeed, Verin again. Even Ba'alzamon doesn't know that Mat sounded the Horn and not Rand (see TGH). So if Lanfear indeed knows about Mat and the Horn, it is very likely that Verin informed her.
And the last thing is Mat's own question: how does she know about the dagger? Indeed the Aes Sedai who healed Mat know about it, but wouldn't they keep it a secret from others that a Shadar Logoth-infested object is in the Tower? It would cause a lot of commotion when it would be widely known. It isn't likely that the whole towers knows, so the source for Lanfear's information must be one of the Aes Sedai included in the Healing, which, indeed, involves Verin.
That's debatable. Lanfear could be talking about Mat's future as ta'veren and how the Aes Sedai don't really care that much about Mat's ta'vereness compared to Rand's. Also as you said, Lanfear says the Aes Sedai don't realize how useful he is, but they know about the Horn, soon after Siuan talks to Mat about being the Hornsounder.
What about a possibility Verin being a lonely Black-Ajah-hunter? All BA-hunters we know don't thrust anybody, act as if they are the last hope of the Tower and the Light, including doing lot of forbidden things... Is Verin's behaviour more suspicious as that of Moiraine (we know Moiraine closer, that's because she's not so suspicious)? Verin is using a novice against the Tower law, but Siuan is doing the same; maybe Verin's motives are the same. Siuan and Verin are in one team, they share both the knowledge about the DR and Liandrin's BA scandal, Siuan doesn't thrust Verin and why Verin to thrust Siuan. If Verin is BA-hunter, she's a veteran BA-hunter (maybe 70 years, as her mentioned "plan"; and she's too deep in a habit to thrust nobody. Maybe the last error she made (in her PoV while she's compelling the green sister in the aiel tent) is when she decided to become a BA-hunter. Tracing suspicious sisters could lead the Shadows attention to her. And in this way I think it could begin so complicated a game, that all that suspicious facts could happen without compelling Verin.
I'm new at Theoryland, if this is long-ago-discussed argument, put me in the place I deserve, but...
I believe Verin is thinking that Moiraine sent her because the reason Verin left in such a hurry is that Moiraine left before her. So in a way you could say that Moiraine's actions sent her, so she could say that Moiraine sent her without lying.
Wolfblade, it was actually Alivia, the former Seanchan damane who attacked Cyndane at the end of Winters Heart.
If Verin is a solo BA-hunter, she would have had plenty of practice in bending the truth oath. This would explain the "Morianne(sp) sent me" and her self rationalization in the tent scene. Also, if she's been hunting BA for 70 years, she would have reason to try to learn some sort of compulsion so she could question people. It's really hard to find people who can just lie to you.
What Verin leaves out of "Moiraine sent me" is where and when and for what purpose Moiraine sent her anywhere. Moiraine could have sent her for a teapot 20 years ago in the White Tower, and that statement could be true until the end of time.
But this theory, while very pretty, has a hole, albeit a small one. Lanfear was shocked at the appearance of the ring. If she had been using it to track Egwene, would she not know what it looked like?
but in retrospect what if Verin only told Lanfear that she had given Egwene a powerful dream ter'angreal, ( I personally believe the ring is the Ring of Tamrylin) and when Lanfear saw what she knew as the Ring of Tamrylin (she would be familiar with it considering her ex-lover wore it until it meant nothing), would it not be natural for her first reaction to be shock at the artifact's survival/appearance?
Tamyrlin, after reading this you have almost thoroughly convinced me that Verin is Black Ajah or at the very least connected to the Dark in some significant way.
However I am a little confused with your connection theory. Are you saying that Verin IS Lanfear just under guise? If so, I don't know if I can believe that, unless RJ plans to bring up "split-forms" or something akin to "mirror images" or something. Because in the Great Hunt, Selene (Lanfear) physically accompanies Rand, Loial and Hurin in the 'otherworld' whilst Verin physically accompanies Ingtar, Mat, Perrin and the other gang in the 'real world'. Both travels seemingly occur at the same time.
What really strikes me is Verin's slip-of-tongue? in calling the Dark One the "Great Lord" as you pointed out but more importantly your highlighting of the fact that in the Great Hunt, when Verin catches up with Ingtar and the gang she says that Moiraine sent her. Later, Moiraine says she did not send her. This is a direct violation of the Three Oaths. Verin flat out lied. I don't see how that could be seen as a "half-truth" or "Aes Sedai talk". Either Moiraine sent her or she didn't, I don't see a middle-ground or gray area there.. So that means that she has been freed from her former Oaths and has maybe taken on the new ones from the Dark?
Clocklotion: I am not saying that Verin is Lanfear. Instead, I am of the opinion that Lanfear used Verin, either through compulsion, or Verin allowed herself to willingly be used, in other words, made a deal, for information. If Jordan never wanted there to be a connection, he made a huge amount of coincedental connections for nothing.
clocklotion, the reference to the Great Lord has already been explained. She was directly quoting the prophecy written on the cell wall. Translating the references, basically. This means this, this means that, and the Great Lord means... she never finishes the thought out loud, but she would have said "the Great Lord means the Dark One." I think this is pretty clear. Besides, even if she were BA or a minion of the Shadow somehow, she wouldn't accidentally say "Great Lord." That would be like her saying something about "the Chosen. Whoops! I mean, er, the Forsaken."
"Moiraine sent me" could be a slippery Aes Sedai statement. Like others have said, it could mean Moiraine's actions were the cause of Verin coming, even if she didn't tell her to go. Or it could be, like someone said, "Moiraine sent me"....to get a pot of tea going 20 years ago. It may not be an outright lie, so the question is why she might try to fudge such an answer. Perhaps for very dark reasons, perhaps just for her own reasons.
Again, I don't think she would have said that as a straight-out lie. An Aes Sedai freed from the Three Oaths can't lie willy-nilly. I think they would have to think it through very carefully before they did so, because being caught in a straight-out lie is the easiest way to sniff out a BA. I don't think she would have lied like that about something it is likely they will check with Moiraine the next time tney see her (unless she expected Moiraine to not be around to confirm/deny the statement - dum dum duh!).
Overall, a very interesting theory. I think we can all agree that something is going on with Verin. What it is remains to be seen.
You make a strong point, I can agree with the connection theory, but Im left wondering about the nature of the connection. It doesnt seem right that Verin might be working for Lanfear. Maybe the two struck a deal? But again that doesnt seem right. Verin might but I find it hard to see Lanfear going along with it. I hope time will tell.
As for the "Moiraine sent me" lie, why hasn't anyone brought up the possibility that Lanfear might have impersonated Moiraine as she impersonated Else, with an inverted Mirror of Mists? That seems to me to be the most likely explanation.
I just read the board discussions and saw that someone has indeed brought up the possibility that Lanfear posed as Moiraine to "send" Verin. Then someone made an unfortunate assumption that the person who brought up the idea was referring somehow to the time in the Tower in tDR, and the idea was buried in a frighteningly broken circle of logic at that point, and forgotten.
Scenario: Just as Moiraine is secretly and hurriedly preparing to leave Fal Dara, Lanfear appears to Verin as Moiraine, uses a bit of compulsion on her to send her after Rand with instructions to inform everyone that Moiraine sent her (probably in order to either alleviate suspicion concerning Verin's presence, or to direct suspicion on Verin concerning the Portal Stones, or to direct all suspicion in Moiraine's direction) and such use of Compulsion would certainly explain the prompt announcement, and Verin's satisfaction in delivering it. Victims of Compulsion always are very eager to carry out their instructions. Lanfear might also have Compelled Verin to leave behind her Warder. I can't think of any other reason Verin would have left him behind, but then again I also can't think of any reason Lanfear would want him left behind.
I tend to forget Verin is Brown ajah half the time. at times she acts like a green other times a blue, But she is Brown, thats why i think she left Tomas in fal dara for a reason and that he would not Betray her by telling thats why he was acting worried. There was information there that she wanted to study and she also needs to be with the DR and the other 2 taveren so she split her resources. I would be Shocked if tomas wasnt a genius in his own right i cant see verin choosing a warder just for a body guard there has to be more to him than a sword for him to have been valuable enough to bond him.
Now as to whether Lanfear compelled her , i dont think so but i could see her making a deal with the "Devil " so to speak a deal that would involve her "70" year plan.
This should probably go under another theory about verin but i will add it here since im tired Lol regarding the 70 year plan.
Cadsuane and Verin are Both from Far madding Both are "Older" aes sedai although Cadsuane is older Both were apparantly on a "Mission" before the aiel war as hinted on Cadsuanes part when she said she was "close to rooting out the BA before that nasty business in the tower happened" so obviously Cadsuane was a BA hunter i think Verin also was brought in as a BA hunter But against what she would have preferred for herself it makes sense to me that whatever trouble she got into in Far Madding Cadsuane COULD have been involved in getting her out and exacted a price.
Now we know Cadsuane went into a retirement of sorts and yet it appears to me that somehow she is "appraised" by someone of major events in the world even in her isolation in Ghealdean i DONT believe her involvement with Logain was happenstance of being in the right place at the right time. anyway im getting off in to many different directions back to verin.
I think Cadsuane went into seclusion so deep that 99 percent of the aes sedai thought she was dead was because she thinks she might have been "exposed" to the BA so she had to back off her hunt leaving the main thrust of the hunt and the need to stay Deeply hidden to Verin. Verin didnt force herself to learn weaves for compulsion just to learn it she learned it to apply to something and that something IMO was the hunt for the BA. Quoting from above:
"Verin says, "There are many . . . designs in the White Tower."
That message sounds so much like wheels spinning in her head its insane!
Now i know Verin contemplated poisoning Cadsuane because she wasnt sure of her motives i in NO way think that was becuase she thought Cadsuane was BA i DO think it was because she could see Cadsuane attempting to interfere with Rand. and to Verin i think her 70 year plan and the DR living to reach TG are intricatly intertwined.
Selene / Lanfear knew about the SL Dagger while she was in the portal world with Rand. Rand told her about the dagger, what it was and why it was important. Lanfear is smart enough to put 2 & 2 together.
Verin, is probably the best female character. I do not think she is BA. I do not think she lied when she said Moraine sent her. I think she is smart enough and has studied the 3 oaths long enough to not only convince herself what the truth is, but also word her phrases well enough to not break the “will not tell a lie†oath.
Verin might have been subjected to a kind of compulsion. Her erratic behavior can explain the use of compulsion. Especially since she has used the absentminded type of behavior through out her career to be overlooked and not paid attention to. Everybody took her erratic behavior as Verin being a brown. She is too bad ass not to take advantage of every opportunity to work from the shadows; she is the lights version of Moggy.
I do not believe that her 70 year plan has anything to do with the BA. I think she has came across the BA, and will do what she can to eliminate them, as long as it doesn’t take her away from her goal. I do not know what her 70 year plan is, or if we will ever know. But unless she blatantly stands up and states she is a dark friend and tries to kill Rand, Mat or Avi. Then she is all good with me. She can even kill Perrin, Fail, Elayne, Nynaeve, & Egwene and I will say she was on the side of the light.